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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 1st Dec 2016, 12:47
  #7621 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
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This buffoon is currently supported by 28% of British voters...
Whereas the buffoon who called the referendum for purely party political reasons (we're not actually going with it being a manifesto pledge, surely?) had even more of the British voters.

CG
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 21:55
  #7622 (permalink)  
 
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Iraq War 2003 - Torys in Government

Now reading on here again and again from people who hate Tony Blair for getting UK into Iraq War.
Especially as it was already pre determined that US intended to invade.

In 2001 if Tories had won election does anybody think William Hague (then Tory leader and would be PM), would have told George Bush that UK was not going to join the US in invading Iraq.

Given actions of Hague since and his pronouncements on intervention where ever he wanted to as Foreign Secretary it is a reasonable guide on what he would do.

Just curious as to what outcome they would have expected in 2003 when US invaded Iraq.

MOD got equipment and men they asked for, fact it was inadequate was down to Military not Political Leadership and military procurement.
/
How would people see it turning out differently
racedo is online now  
Old 1st Dec 2016, 22:15
  #7623 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
In 2001 if Tories had won election does anybody think William Hague (then Tory leader and would be PM), would have told George Bush that UK was not going to join the US in invading Iraq.
Well they didn't, and he wasn't. So we'll never know.

What a waste of time........
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 22:16
  #7624 (permalink)  
 
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Rather few of the top echelon objected to the Bush/Blair warmongering.

Corbyn was one who did.

That pudgey Brummie wumman whose name I can't remember did so too, right up until she realised that objecting to the Bush/Blair war would mean giving up her ministerial (ODA?) salary and the limousine and the flunkies and all that stuff.

Robbin' Kook almost did, but then he went for walk in the woods and never recovered.
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Old 1st Dec 2016, 23:29
  #7625 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
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But knc, when you write:

" ....With a country already disabled and confused, and lets face it, so reliant are people on IT it wouls take very little disruption to their lives for serious panic to emerge, why then resort to nuclear weapons ?......the infrastructure remains intact and radiation free but with the population suitably cowed. ..."

You unwittingly justify the whole purpose of nuclear weapons in the sense that they are the ultimate deterrent. It doesn't really matter how any enemy of the UK might bring us to the point of being "suitably cowed" as you elegantly put it. It doesn't matter whether that point is reached by software or hardware inflicted upon us by by our enemy. The point is we are saying to the enemy it does not matter how you get to the very point of destroying the uk, but if you somehow manage to do so we will reduce your country to rubble. Yes, millions upon millions will then die for no purpose. And that is why the deterrent works. I would sooner be burnt to a crisp in a millisecond than be ultimately "cowed" - forever, for there will be no second bite of the cherry, no opportunity to return to peaceful co-existence, no democracy. Forever. Enslaved. You, me, all your loved ones - forever and ever amen.

Would you really prefer living your life enslaved? Do you really prefer to condemn your loved ones to a future like that? Forever. The nuclear ultimate deterrent works, and it does so every day, and that is why you and I can write things like this. I respect your point of view, I just happen to think you're so very wrong.

Ps. That chap I was having a cup of tea with, the Head of BAOR you recall in the early 80's, he said if the Soviets attacked it would be in the middle of the night as the roads would be pretty clear for their tanks to roll up in the following days, no pesky civilians clogging up the roads.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 03:38
  #7626 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Just when you think that we have had all the political shocks we can have along comes Richmond Park. I have never supported the Lib Dems and had assumed that they were finished. Brexit seems to have breathed life back into the corpse.

I wonder now if we will see a coalescing of Remainer support around the party. Mrs EM has been making worryingly pro LD noises since the referendum that pissed her off massively.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 06:34
  #7627 (permalink)  
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yellowtriumph.....

That was, I have to say, a suitably emotive response....there's just one small problem with your wish to be incinerated.....unless you are unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity of the detonation, it isn't going to happen.

Radiation will happily spread across all areas thereafter and this has, as I'm sure you are aware, a decidedly long life. This is what would effect many more than those located at ground zero.

Have you ever watched the risible film "Protect and survive" at all ?......if so, you will have noted that the chances of survival are, to put it mildly, limited.

The UK was never, and never will be, prepared for any form of nuclear attack.

Personally, I have a very strong preference for staying alive and living in an unpolluted environment. Hence I am, and have been for a long time, opposed to the use and ownership of nuclear weapons.

I have never seen them as a deterrent, and therefore a justification for the obscene amount of expenditure they attract.

As for you conversation with the head of BAOR, well he's pretty much correct in one sense. What he omitted however, was the fact that an invasion force takes time to assemble and any such build up would, even by the standards of our military at times, actually be noticed and prepared for.

Our defence correspondent will doubtless explain his absolute conviction, given he knows no other life, as to why the military would know what's best for everybody. Frankly, I never have, and never would, trust certain elements of the military with mature thinking and thereafter the implementation of actions.

prophead.

You seem to live an idyllic life, one that only allows certain realities to pervade when you actually feel they may be warranted.

Many of us however, do not share this idyllic vision.

Here's a couple of examples as to why cyber warfare is far from removed as being a game of "cat and mouse".....take your time to assimilate the information please.

Cyberwarfare: Digital weapons causing physical damage | Computerworld

Forbes Welcome

Then you may begin to understand why, as I said, the disruption to people's lives would have an almost immediate and catastrophic effect.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:05
  #7628 (permalink)  
 
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I think that the votes from the 'working classes' (whatever that is in the modern world?) are going to be fought over by the LibDems and UKIP in future. (Labour will become just a London Left Wing Club.)

The Richmond by-election saying anything about 'Brexit'? No. It is a London wealthy elite who voted 'remain' in the referendum and have simply voted the same way now. Nothing new. There is absolutely no way that Richmond (that softie southern one, not the real tough Northern one!) gives any indication about opinions in Britain. If you want some opinions from the British public, listen to the audience reactions in last night's Question Time. (But then that took place in the North, an area not recognised by that remote London 'elite'.)
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:43
  #7629 (permalink)  
 
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Listening to Tim Farron and his new MP on the radio this morning.
I think they should now be called the Liberal Anti Democrats.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:50
  #7630 (permalink)  
 
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The Richmond Park by-election, odd and unrepresentative as it was of the country as a whole (it was essentially a protest over Heathrow R3), has raised an interesting issue.

Do we really have a single party that will end up in opposition in future?

Labour are imploding, the Lib Dems and UKIP are a spent force, the Greens will never be anything other than a small minority, and the non-English nationalist parties seem to be growing in strength, so which party is going to rise up from the current political mess to form the next opposition?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:17
  #7631 (permalink)  
 
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I think that we need to wait for Sleaford next week before we can read anything into this result.if that shows a large movement LD wards then I think it's much more significant and represents just where the Remainers are to put their money.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:38
  #7632 (permalink)  
 
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There was never going to be any other result. No Tory or UKIP candidate. An LD candidate that opposes a 3rd runway and is a hard line remainer. Almost 70% voted to remain in the referendum.

When a by election happens in the real world where average wages are not in the top ten constituencies country wide and a two bedroom semi can be had for less than 700k then we may have a meaningful result.

A majority of less than two thousand on a 53% turnout without a Tory or UKIP candidate is hardly a base on which to build a political career.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 09:50
  #7633 (permalink)  
 
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Prophead. A very good point as to directing protests to those countries most likely to use them. Unfortunately it's easier for the self loathing British hating lefties to blame ourselves than anyone else.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 12:48
  #7634 (permalink)  
 
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Mrs EM has been making worryingly pro LD noises since the referendum that pissed her off massively.
She's not alone. There are still people joining every day.

Wot I want to know is, when we have an action weekend in our constituency, how TF do we get 1,000 activists to pile in which is what was achieved at Richmond?? Yes I know cake was supplied (jolly good it was too), but even so.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 12:51
  #7635 (permalink)  
 
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odd and unrepresentative as it was
You haven't been watching the principal council by-elections for the last several months then? - we won yet another one last night, yet again from the Tories, yet again with a massive swing.

Current score is something like: us 23, pretty well everybody else 0.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 12:52
  #7636 (permalink)  
 
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So how many parliamentary seats is that now GtW?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 13:30
  #7637 (permalink)  
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prophead....

About those links, the ones you dismissed as being of little or no relevance.

When the infrastructure of a country is, in effect, disabled.....how long do you think it would take for panic to set in amongst the population ?

I would agree on the non-proliferation of weapons, although as we know this hasn't been quite a resounding success, but equally, the impetus for their removal has to come from the nations that already have them.

You mentioned stable states.....with the impending arrival of one D.Trump, and a decidedly hawkish ( much admired by the gung ho, macho red neck fraternity, on the US forum, viewed with intensifying alarm by others on there ..and elsewhere) do you really think in the imminent future America can still be classed as a "stable state " ?

This lady eloquently offers rational and cohesive arguments as to why the world no longer needs nuclear weapons. In some respects, I have already echoed her views. Note the word......conventional and it's prevalence therefore.

Challenging the myth that we need nuclear weapons | Nautilus Institute for Security and Sustainability
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 14:53
  #7638 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
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Interesting interview by new MP

Sarah Olney Walks Out of Interview, Spin Doctor Forced to Take Over - Guido Fawkes Guido Fawkes

Edit: Sorry did'nt realise it is also on Brexit thread

Last edited by Mike6567; 2nd Dec 2016 at 16:40. Reason: extra info
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:50
  #7639 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
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Spoilt my day! Having to watch that smug, useless dimwit Tin Tim Farron on every news bulletin making out this was the biggest event and the useless party was on the rise!

Again Andrew Neil kebabed him on Daily Politics he was unable to answer a question.

It needs to be remembered that Goldsmith didn't have the Conservative party back-up and that the turnout was low.

Best bit was Corbyn's muppet lost his deposit.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 18:53
  #7640 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Originally Posted by vctenderness View Post
Spoilt my day! Having to watch that smug, useless dimwit Tin Tim Farron on every news bulletin making out this was the biggest event and the useless party was on the rise!

Again Andrew Neil kebabed him on Daily Politics he was unable to answer a question.

It needs to be remembered that Goldsmith didn't have the Conservative party back-up and that the turnout was low.

Best bit was Corbyn's muppet lost his deposit.
I tried to highlight exactly how little choice voters in Richmond Park had in this post:
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/5827...ml#post9596977

Worth a read, even if it's only for a chuckle.
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