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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

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UK politics - Hamsterwheel

Old 13th Dec 2010, 09:35
  #2141 (permalink)  
 
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TTN, thank you for your measured response. I did consider that we could delve into a bitter grudge fest but thankfully no.

I find it interesting that you state "As a Christian I would have no problem with him speaking against Christianity", however, the potential of a lecture against Islam engenders pause for caution and would greatly appreciate your reasoning behind this precept.

Incidentally, the EDL has invited him to speak, he is not himself pressing the EDL to speak.

Indeed we do have democratically elected [sic] representatives in government to decide these matters, where the problem lies is in censorship. Often we live under the perception of freedom of speech, and that is in itself is the foundation of democracy. I may not agree with Terry Jones' views or opinions, or those of yourself or anyone else for that matter, but the capacity to air those views is fundamental. However, that does not include the incitement to commit criminal acts against person, property or the state.

So if we take the basis of preventing someone from airing their views or opinions, where that does that stand with democracy, democratic process, indeed freedom of speech? Where does it start and where does it end ? it is, potentially the start of slippery slope into prevention of free speech. And that is the problem.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall (Often mis-attributed to Voltaire)
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 10:29
  #2142 (permalink)  
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What's ironic is that the vast majority of the students will have been brainwashed into thinking giving the money away for so useless a purpose is a good thing.

Christopher Booker, Sunday Telegraph:

.........In the short term, the Government’s own projection as to how much it will save is that the funding of university tuition will be cut by £2.9 billion by 2014. As it happens, £2.9 billion is the sum ring-fenced, by the same public spending review, to be given to developing countries to help them fight global warming with windmills and solar panels......
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 10:43
  #2143 (permalink)  
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Incidentally, the EDL has invited him to speak,
In Luton, where the guy who initiated the Swedish explosions was living . . .

There is a significant muslim population in Luton and doubtless some radical Islamists (some of the London July 7th bombers originated from Luton and the others met up with them there before taking the train to London).

Holding a meeting with Terry Jones as a speaker might be inflammatory . . .

(There have already been anti-British Army demonstrations that have occurred in Luton.)
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 10:53
  #2144 (permalink)  
 
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So less then 2% of the population dictate who and what the other 98% can listen to?
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 10:54
  #2145 (permalink)  
 
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G-CPTN,

Would it therefore warrant no involvement in preventing the airing of views or personal opinion if the selected location were not Luton. Would Chipping Ongar, Cheltenham, Liverpool or Bracknell be acceptable then ?

Or is Luton, exempt from freedom of speech:
There have already been anti-British Army demonstrations that have occurred in Luton.
apparently not.

In Luton, where the guy who initiated the Swedish explosions was living
and was a student.

there is a significant issue in radicalization in universities [sic] in the UK, many at locations would not be considered hotbeds of radicalization, but indeed there is a problem and it has been largely not met media attention, if the security services have the situation under review then that is their business.

Holding a meeting with Terry Jones as a speaker might be inflammatory . .

(There have already been anti-British Army demonstrations that have occurred in Luton.)
and demonstrations that are anti British Armed forces might not be inflammatory ?
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 11:13
  #2146 (permalink)  
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Indeed they were, and were opposed by the EDL.
I wonder, though, whether it is wise to initiate an event which will further inflame feelings?

I'm not suggesting that all sides should live together in peace and harmony regardless of their emotions, but why irritate the situation?
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 11:32
  #2147 (permalink)  
 
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So, freedom of speech irritates a sitaution of social disharmony where, as TD pointed out 2% of the population dictates what the other 98% can and cannot listen to ?
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 12:49
  #2148 (permalink)  
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Much talk of "Freedom of Speech" but the reality is that one is free only to say that which the listeners will tolerate.

Anyone is free to stand on a soap box at Speakers'Corner and say what they wish, but over the years many have been pulled from their soap box and beaten up.
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 12:57
  #2149 (permalink)  
 
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here's a contrast :

The English Defence League (EDL) held a rally to show solidarity with Israel outside the Israeli embassy in Kensington, London. They believe Israel has suffered the most at the hands of Islamic doctrine and seek backing for the EDL cause. For the main speaker, they invited Rabbi Nachum Shifren, a member of the American Tea Party who made an anti-islamic speech, the type of which he is known for at Tea Party events in the United States. The EDL are looking to forge ties with the American party because they have similar views on Islamic Fundamentalism.
Between 200 and 250 EDL supporters came from all around the country to express their opinions against what they term as “The Islamification of Britain” seeing Islam as an anathema to the British way of life.
There was a small counter demonstration which was backed by Unite against Fascism (UAF).

The rally ended and was dispersed by the police, but a small hardcore group broke away and headed through Hyde Park to Speakers’ Corner where it was announced Rabbi Nachum Shifren was going to speak again.
At Speakers’ Corner, the police created a cordon to separate the EDL from the Muslims that regularly gather there on Sundays. Tensions were high as some of the muslims in the crowd heckled Shifren while he spoke. Scuffles broke out as tempers boiled over leading to some EDL arrests. Police reinforcements arrived and in an attempt to separate them, encircled the remaining EDL to maintain order, then finally moved them off southward and out of the park.

The EDL have been quite vocal this year, holding marches and rallies around the UK.
.. between the attitudes of the EDL in the UK and the Tea Party-ists in the US, over the issue of Islamic Fundamentalism.

one lump or two ?


perhaps one of the US ppruners may care to contribute a viewpoint?
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 16:28
  #2150 (permalink)  

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The elephant in the room is the fear which individuals, authorities and governments have, of the face of that which Islam has allowed itself to become.

All are afraid of reprisal if anything they say may appear vaguely honest or derogatory.

It is a sad situation indeed, a situation which has been walked into, eyes wide open !

A situation which will only get worse.
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 16:54
  #2151 (permalink)  
 
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thank you caller, we have a winner !
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 17:00
  #2152 (permalink)  
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Away from the little issue of free speech, this should set the air raid sirens sounding.....

BBC News - Councils face average 4.4% spending power cut - Pickles

I like the term "localism"...read personal little fiefdoms and the return to Rachmann...sorry, private enterprise landlords
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 17:06
  #2153 (permalink)  
 
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I like the term "localism"...read personal little fiefdoms and the return to Rachmann...sorry, private enterprise landlords.
if i may quote Eric Cartman.
"That's f^^king weak, dude!"
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Old 13th Dec 2010, 17:19
  #2154 (permalink)  
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The Beeb has been reporting that the EDL has withdrawn the invitation to Terry Jones, having researched his background and, particularly, his attitude to homosexuals . . .
(though I have yet to find 'proof' of this in print).

Edited to add:- BBC News - EDL blocks Koran protest pastor Terry Jones from event

Last edited by G-CPTN; 13th Dec 2010 at 18:32.
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Old 14th Dec 2010, 05:46
  #2155 (permalink)  
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You have to admire the EDL for their virtuous stance and indeed the moral itegrity they display.....possibly natures compensation for having deprived them all of a functional brain and any semblance of being rational in their perspectives on life......
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Old 14th Dec 2010, 07:29
  #2156 (permalink)  
 
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you also to admire them for their growing ability to 'back-pedal'
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 12:22
  #2157 (permalink)  
 
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. . . seems more appropriate here than to open a new thread . . .

John Redwood.

Now I am no expert on matters of finance and the world of the city but . . .

Saw Mr Redwood commentating on todays decision by the BOE to keep interest rates at 0.5%. He was clearly advocating a rise to deal with rising inflation. However, when the Beeb news reader put to him that many punters out there would reject a rise to thier mortgage rates given the extra cost of taxes/shopping/fuel/job cuts ets, he said that 'For every one borrower there are three savers,' going on to say that a rise in interest rates would benefit the savers and help them pay their increased mortgages. The implication being that an interest rate rise would not be detrimental to the man on the street.

As I said, I'm no expert, so shoot me down if I'm wrong here or have the wrong end of the stick, but is it just me or is he talking absolute bobbins?
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 12:26
  #2158 (permalink)  
 
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Cameron is quoted as saying "We're all in this together".

I think what he meant was 'You're all in this together'.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 12:31
  #2159 (permalink)  
 
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As usual a politician exagerates slightly and you believe him? The gist of what he was saying was correct though - as Alistair Darling agreed at the time. If interest rates stay where they are for much longer the Bank of England will raise them eventually but too late as usual. They are always behind the curve.

The other problem of course was also mentioned by Redwood and that is there may be a low base rate at the moment but who is paying interest rates on their mortgage anywhere near as low as 0.5%? No one. When the base rate eventually does rise the banks don't have to increase savings rates either. So savers will not automatically benefit.
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Old 13th Jan 2011, 12:41
  #2160 (permalink)  
 
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I nearly am. I have the C&G tracker mortgage that the news used to go on about at the height of the crisis. Pure luck on my part, but my mortgage went down 50% in 2008 & has stayed there ever since. It's allowed me to knock years off the term by overpaying.

Then again, my savings have gone backwards, so it's swings and roundabouts. Still, at least I have another month's reprieve to get the mortgage switched to a fix before the next bout of unpleasantness arrives.
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