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Another Tony Martin

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Another Tony Martin

Old 22nd Dec 2009, 15:36
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Roger,

If I'd be forced to defend myself against an intruder, given half a chance said intruder might risk having his face forcefully contacted by the body of my old Precision bass, which is a good deal heavier than a cricket bat and has various convenient bits of sturdy metal hardware attached to boot.

In the lucky circumstance I'd manage to chase them off - this actually happened once, the sight of me swinging the bass by its neck having been sufficient - that would be the end of it as far as I'm concerned.
I'd wait till the cops turn up, supply them with an adequate description of the intruder(s), let them investigate any available traces left by said intruder(s) and let them sort it out. That's what they're paid for.

Are you mouse or man?
I'm a man, not a troglodyte. A man keeps his cool.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 16:20
  #62 (permalink)  
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parabellum,

I may have made a gross error here. I simply assumed it was not the normal practice for every household in the UK to have an illegal pump handled shotgun as a standard household appliance......so, yes, by that criteria he was indeed innocent as you say.

Have a read of the 5 pages of archives in the link below please....after which you may care to review your opinion....or not as the case may be.

Tony Martin murder case | UK news | guardian.co.uk

For others, who consider that being left brain damaged as a result of an attack justified only by being a "good law abiding chap" etc, please read this link taken from the above archive....like I said in my question, the difference between criminals who attack and "law abiding members of society" who feel they have a self justifying right to is......??

What sort of society praises vigilantes with cricket bats? | Catherine Bennett | Comment is free | The Observer
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2009, 16:52
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Olandese

the senario

I would love to see your reaction should two guys break into your house this christmas day and tie up your family, stick a blade under you mother, wife and childrens throats screaming they are gonna f*****g kill them and give them all a good punch in the face or torso. What would you do?
your answer

In the lucky circumstance I'd manage to chase them off - this actually happened once, the sight of me swinging the bass by its neck having been sufficient - that would be the end of it as far as I'm concerned.
How great to have a PhD in Hindsight!



well your family have every right to be ashamed of you forever. ("sorry they punched you Mum, oh and kids, and I know they held a knife at your throat saying they would fu****g kill you. Whilst I appreciate that this was scary and will affect the kids for the rest of their lives, I did wave my bass at them, so they left. The police say they are busy and will come around a week on Monday, but its ok I guess")

If I'd be forced to defend myself against an intruder, given half a chance said intruder might risk having his face forcefully contacted by the body of my old Precision bass, which is a good deal heavier than a cricket bat and has various convenient bits of sturdy metal hardware attached to boot.
But you said

I'm a man, not a troglodyte. A man keeps his cool.


Who mentioned troglodytes?. I said are you man or mouse?



Now is that cheddar you would like or Stilton?
Roger Sofarover is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2009, 18:08
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Roger, it is a pity this has descended to suggesting that if you don't mete out your own vigilante justice you are somehow less of a man and not fulfilling your obligations as protector of your family

Reasonable force at all times....it just depends on each individual's definition of reasonable. No doubt some will consider this to be "whatever force they like" and others at the other end of the spectrum will consider this to be "no force whatsoever"

So should we allow individuals in society to decide what is "reasonable force", or should we consider that the society as a whole (in the form of the law and the judicial system) should decide what is "reasonable force"

I am sure we would all appreciate that allowing individuals to determine what is "reasonable force " with no reference to wider society norms is probably not a good thing. Say someone drove into the back of me because they were driving too close on a snowy day, do we want to have a society where it would be acceptable for me to beat up the rear-ender as, I felt, it was proportionate.

I can appreciate people wanting to do everything they can to protect their family and who knows, I may actually react in the same way in the same circumstances. But I still think that we need a system of recourse to society norms rather than allowing individuals to dispense whatever revenge/justice they see fit
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 20:17
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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If you live by the sword you should be prepared to die (or be maimed) by the sword.

End of.

I CANNOT believe there are so many on here standing up for the "rights" of a criminal thug.

End of. (Again)
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 20:47
  #66 (permalink)  

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Reading some of the above posts, it becomes apparent that it is not simply a matter of reason alone, but of how rapidly a person is capable of reasoning.

In a situation such as that in which the Hussains found themselves, I like to think I'd retain or, more likely, regain the presence of mind to curtail my beating at the point at which I had reasonably exercised enough force to disarm and detain the burglars, plus a small margin to be sure. Afterall, that it what the law of the land dictates.

To continue the beating and 'wreak such havok and devastation that their bodies would probably be unrecognisable', knowing that doing so may very well lead to my incarceration, the event of which would leave my loved ones unprotected for the duration thereof, would, I feel, give my 'family every right to be ashamed of me forever.'
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 20:52
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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With utter respect for the Leopardess's opinion. Justice and protection for your life, your loved ones... let it be so. A good woman/man will do no less.

The rest is just bull and if done will see him damned and his family in penury. For shame.

NB
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 22:10
  #68 (permalink)  
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I tell you something for free - if I read in next weekend's papers that Injustice Reddinough and his family had been tied up by armed intruders and beaten to a pulp it would make my entire year. The man is a [email protected] of the highest order, even worse than the criminal he adores.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 23:03
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Roger,
well your family have every right to be ashamed of you forever.
Rrright. My 15-year-old daughter would be mightily proud of me if, instead of seeing to her physical and mental well-being after a scary and possibly life-threatening experience, I'd left her to her own device in order to run after a crook and smash his head in.

I know what her comment would be, and I shudder at the thought of her gaze as she'd say:
"Dad, you're a idiot!"
And she'd be right.

I sincerely hope you'll never find yourself in a position to give in to the urge to take the law into your own hands and kill or maim someone as a result. If you do, then be a real man and be prepared to pay accordingly.
olandese_volante is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2009, 23:36
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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You're right

Merry Christmas
Roger Sofarover is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2009, 00:11
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Re Roger's post (#63)

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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 00:17
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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CapnArr

Funny. But you were 35 mins late, re post 70.

Merry Christmas
Roger Sofarover is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2009, 00:22
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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We recently had an account in Sydney where someone broke into a house and was found strangling a 6yr old boy. Amazingly the victims family are very good friends with my boss who told me the actual story (the newspapers had it mostly right) and he shared with me because he knows i had young kids and it was in the next suburb to mine!

The criminal was 63 yrs old, had been out of prison for about 18 months after serving a 20 yr sentence (for what i dont know, a violent crime i was told). He had gloves on, had a box-cutter type knife, a rope and other (frankly scary) paraphenalia.

Thankfully the boy in question managed to call out to dad who came running. His dad is an ex rubgy player still frightfully fit and about 6'4 120kgs. Dad simply belted him senseless.

When the constabulary arrived said criminal was lying on the lawn unconscious. Wallopers asked Dad what happened and he told them he only hit him 4 or 5 times to stop him from what he was doing. The cops said they would'nt have stopped at 4 or 5.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 00:43
  #74 (permalink)  
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Well sounds like they still have decent cops in Sydney unlike the pro-criminal yellow-bellied filth we have here.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 00:50
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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It's quite simple, really. Yes, really really simple.

In Engerlund, you're allowed to use reasonable force to protect yourself and your kith and kin. Anything in excess of minimum force is reserved for the police.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 08:31
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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That last post did make me chuckle, even though i think even the police are as frustrated as the rest of us with the justice system these days.
Mr Hussain and brother should have perhaps broken an arm or leg of the villain and nothing more. What did they expect would happen if they clubbed him about the head with a cricket bat, that he would get a bit of a headache?
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 12:58
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Sunray/Keef

So the Daily Mail is to blame? No, you're right, I had absolutely no opinion on this case until the Mail explained it all to me.

Absolute bollox.


Krystal

So wrong it's frightening. No difference? I just don't know where to start on that, it is so pathetic. The mere fact you cannot see the difference between vigilantism and what happened in this case is, frankly, astonishing.
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Old 23rd Dec 2009, 16:29
  #78 (permalink)  
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Nick,

Defending yourself in your own home / on the street against a totally unprovoked attack is one thing and the law, as far as I am aware, recognises this.

Subsequently pursueing the offender(s) once the threat has receded and then acting in the manner these two did puts you in the same category as the criminal.

Whatever induces criminals ( all forms) to become such on a "career basis" and to behave in the way they do is for a criminologist to explain..or a shrink of course. For those of us who don't have criminal inclinations therefore we are, with some justification, expected to use restraint and common sense when confronted with such situations.

Difficult I know, but if the justification of many supporters is that they are "entitled" by way of being part of the fabled "middle England" and are simply "good chaps" otherwise becomes accepted as they wish, then, whilst the Police and the legal world can, and do, make mistakes, we might just as well abolish them and simply become arbitary "judge, jury and executioner"....would you really want that I wonder ?.
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Old 24th Dec 2009, 11:34
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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"Subsequently pursueing the offender(s) once the threat has receded and then acting in the manner these two did puts you in the same category as the criminal".

No, it doesn't. Your failure to recognise this is what disturbs me most.
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Old 24th Dec 2009, 11:40
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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In the eyes of the law, yes it does. You may not like the law, but it is what it is irrespective of how much you may find that disturbing.
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