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Another Tony Martin

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Another Tony Martin

Old 21st Dec 2009, 18:50
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Hussain was not so fortunate. He, his wife and his children, had returned home to surprise three men ransacking it. The family had all been tied up at knifepoint by the criminals, then made to crawl from room to room under threat of murder.
In my opinion Hussain showed remarkable restraint in not killing the creep. It is an outrage that he has been sent to prison. In terms of the law, yes maybe a conviction. But a prison sentence? It's insane.

In this country there was the famous incident where a farmer shot a potential burglar, chased him, beat him, reloaded and finished him off. He was convicted of manslaughter because the jury had only had a choice of a manslaughter or a murder conviction. This caused an outcry from the public at large. Had a second trial this time the jury sent him home a free man.

In view of this the Irish government, in a rare moment of clarity have decided to reform the law on self defence which will allow householders to defend themselves up to and including killing the intruder instead of having to 'retreat'. Also this:
The commission also recommends that the defence of provocation be allowed in murder trials even in cases where the killing does not immediately follow the provocation.
In other words, chasing them down the street and beating them with a cricket bat (or finishing them off with a shotgun) would be allowed as a defence.

Plain common sense at last in this country. Will it ever happen in Britain?
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 18:55
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Roger:
It was a case similar to this that was the last straw, leading me to the decision to leave England forever. You know what, it was the right decision.
Olandese:
Myself, I do not reside in Britain and have no desire to be accorded the privilege, so I couldn't care less.
Does anyone else see what I'm seeing in this? Why don't you two scamps meet up in a mutually covenient corner of non English paradise & have it out mano e mano. The rest of us can get on with actually living & contributing to the damn country.
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 19:04
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed.

If those two carry on trading childish insults this thread will probably end up in Jetblast.
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 20:07
  #44 (permalink)  
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I don't suppose for one minute any of the "take the law into our own hands / vigilantes are the only answer" contributors on here would even remotely consider the fact there is no difference between themselves and those they seek to assault.....no, of course not, they are, after all, jolly good chaps and stalwart law abiding members of society after all........so what is the difference then ?.......other than being of the self opinion they are entitled to do so simply because, they are the "good guys".

Answers, on a self-justifying post card below please.
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 20:55
  #45 (permalink)  

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Not sure if I fall into the category of people that Krystal refers to but I'll answer the question as best I can.

I did not say whether Husseins actions were right, wrong or indifferent. The point I am making is that in the circumstances as reported I dont believe that it was reasonable to expect Hussein to act with restraint.

Every case is different but all burglaries have two factors in common, namely choice and provocation.

1 - The burglar has the choice to burgle the house or not. The victim does not have this choice. The burglar has the choice to threaten the victim with a knife (not a pleasant experience), the victim has to assume that the miscreant is prepared to use it otherwise why would he have a knife in the first place?

2 - By being in someone elses house, let alone threatening the victim and his family one can assume that there was a certain degree of provocation. Someone who casually threatens violence can not complain when they try to bully the wrong person and end up seriously injured.

Violent criminals dont tend to be very receptive to reasoning which means that when confronted by them you either do exactly what they tell you to or you fightback in which case you keep hitting them until they are incapable of hitting you back otherwise they will come after you. So in this context smashing said individual over the head with a cricket bat is not that extreme.

As I said in my previous post I dont advocate vigilantism, not through any worries about the criminal but rather the propensity of lynch mobs to attack the wrong person. Think of the idiots who attacked the house of a paedatrician because they confused this with a paedophile.
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 20:57
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Krystal n chips
even remotely consider the fact
It's not a fact, it's an opinion.

"no difference"
In your opinion there is no difference between a 53 year old hard-working family man who's been a decent law-abiding citizen who goes too far (in the eyes of the law) after he's managed to fight off a gang of masked knife-wielding robbers who got into his home, tied up the family, assaulted them, made them crawl on the floor, held knives to their throats and repeatedly threatened to kill them in an attempt to rob the family Ė and the professional criminals who did that.

Interesting.
Bizarre, but interesting.
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 21:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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No difference???

There is a world of difference between peacably abiding in your own home and therein being set upon by persons intent on criminal intent -all too often involving violence - and being the perpetrator of such actions.

Arising therefrom, one rings - in my experience, as no doubt would be yours, the Tameside division of GMP, and waits, and waits; and only after a discussion on the Beswick programme as was, gets a response from said GMP ten days later.

This is then followed up by two Crime Number notices, one addressed to someone who doesn't live here, the second, correctly directed to me, but sent to an address four miles away with a similar name.

Finally, one gets no less than three phone calls, three weeks later "seeking to complete profile information" but achieving absolutely nothing.

And you wonder why an on the spot response with a baseball bat is becoming such a talking point.

The dismal number of detections, refusal to prosecute unless the CPS is assured of a conviction; and the ridiculously lax penalties meted out to the tiny proportion of criminals actually apprehended - see the Lord Chancellor's guidelines - make the law abiding tax paying normal resident apoplectic with fury.

The temptation to react on the spot would not be so much to the fore if the authorities to whom we pay our dues, and to whom we should be able to look for protection and detection, actually did represent our real interests, instead of compliance and box ticking information returns for the inhabitants of Whitehall.

I wish it was not so - but it is.
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Old 21st Dec 2009, 21:11
  #48 (permalink)  
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The verdicts surrounding this case are a disgrace.

To my mind, any person engaging in behaviour such as breaking-and-entering, compounded with violent and/or threatening actions should expect that retribution should come under the heading of an occupational risk.

The scumbag in question is lucky to be alive; I wouldn't guarantee his ability to walk or even breathe if he behaved in the same way in my house, to my family.

I am repeatedly appalled by the so-called justice system in the United Kingdom.

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Old 21st Dec 2009, 21:20
  #49 (permalink)  
Sir George Cayley
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Some states in the US allow homeowners to shoot dead anyone on their property without permission - seems like a sensible law

In a recent interview on radio a crinimal agreed that amongst his fraternity the accepted wisdom was that if you were caught in someone's house you should expect a kicking.

If such a pragmatic view is held by the opposition, it seems strange that the judiciary doesn't follow this.

I have to admit that if threatened in my own home, I would not be able to be held responsible for my subsequent actions. Not because I diss'd the intruder but out of my duty of care to my beloved wife, Lady Cayley.

Sir George Cayley
 
Old 21st Dec 2009, 23:10
  #50 (permalink)  
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I think there needs to be an important clarification of the term vigilante.

Case 1 - Someone reads of a prolific burglar, is so insensced by the crimes committed and possibly the perceived injustice, decides to go and find said burglar and give him the beating of his life. The attacker has no connection with the burglar.

Case 2 - A respectable businessman comes home with his family, is set upon by a gang of cowards in balaclavas, beaten up and told he is going to get "f*****g killed", despite his wife pleading for mercy and daughter crying, then gets the upper hand by pure luck and proceeds to give the toerag the most richly deserved kicking of his life.

Now in my opinion Case 1 is a vigilante, Case 2 is a hero and the judge in Case 2 is the 2nd biggest [email protected] this country has ever seen.

I think that sufficiently clarifies the postion.

P.S. The biggest [email protected] has one eye, pretends to be Prime Minister and makes up laws that protect the criminal ahead of the victim.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 08:41
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Doors to Automatic View Post
Now in my opinion Case 1 is a vigilante, Case 2 is a hero and the judge in Case 2 is the 2nd biggest [email protected] this country has ever seen.

I think that sufficiently clarifies the postion.

P.S. The biggest [email protected] has one eye, pretends to be Prime Minister and makes up laws that protect the criminal ahead of the victim.
The judges say they are constrained by the law as it is given to them by the government. The government say that is not the case and the judges are not using their judgement correctly. Go figure.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 10:49
  #52 (permalink)  
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Tony Martin

And he was far from being the innocent victim he has been made out to be.....quite the reverse in fact.
At the time of the break-in he was the innocent victim, defending his property against potential burglars who had no business there.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 11:07
  #53 (permalink)  
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Don't ask me to back this up with facts because I can't remember. However some years ago on British TV I saw mention of some device for sale which in the event of a burglary would fill your living room with a non-toxic but irritant fog.

The news item featured some po-faced representative of the law saying "of course we do not recommend any householder fitting this, because if a person who broke into your house became disoriented and blinded by the fog, he might fall over inside your house and injure himself: you, the householder, would then be liable and could find yourself in court".

And that just about sums it all up, doesn't it.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 11:51
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Hereís a thought: while nonchalantly making my way down the street, I chance upon Mr Hussain with his knee across the said miscreantís neck, pinning him to the deck. "What ho", I say, "what leads you to treat this fellow so harshly". Mr H so explains (I would hope) and everyone is content. Conversely, I chance upon Mr H and associate laying about the said miscreant with a bat and other aids to violence. Under such circumstances, Mr Hís gonads and larynx would acquire zero vertical separation and his accomplice would become intimately acquainted with the readily surrendered bat. Perhaps, after thinking this through, one of you erudite chaps could explain my legal and moral position?

Originally Posted by Sir George Cayley
Some states in the US allow homeowners to shoot dead anyone on their property without permission - seems like a sensible law


At first glance that does seem eminently just. That isnít much consolation, Sir George, should one have arrived at the front door of Chez Red-Neck to ask directions or beg assistance with some external embuggerance.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 12:52
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst tempting to consider the burglar, having so trepassed on Mr Hussain's family, a worthwhile target for a beating, to death as appropriate or not...on does look beyond the gut reflex as to what this implies for others..

...its OK to chase down the perpetrator, who now no longer possess a threat to one's family and punish him/her in a manner only 'you' deem correct...( a bit of instant revenge..)

..its OK in this circumstance to be judge, jury and 'excutioner' ..so what about others?
Say a mugging...does the victim therefore have the right to run after and say break the mugger's arm.. or is it a leg.. or neck?
How abouth threatening behaviour? A punch in the face? Kick in the nuts..

Having been a 'victim' of violent crime on a couple of occassions I know my reaction has much less to do with revenge and far more to do with making sure those with me at the time, who also suffered, are looked after and considered prior to any thought of revenge. (Plus I was rather a chicken a preferred not chasing after the knife wielding thug who tried to car jack us...or the rather tall and well built Irish gent who, having failed to run me over thought a head butt would sort me out...)

I'd prefer to have seen a non custodial sentence for Mr Hussain...and a custodial one for the burglar...preferably a long one.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 12:53
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU:

Applause!
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 13:40
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Applause!
Applause for what?

GBZ

Hereís a thought: while nonchalantly making my way down the street, I chance upon Mr Hussain with his knee across the said miscreantís neck, pinning him to the deck. "What ho", I say, "what leads you to treat this fellow so harshly". Mr H so explains (I would hope) and everyone is content.
Assuming Mr Hussain is big enough to floor the villain and pin him down to the floor with his knee on his neck. (Remember this villain is armed with a 12 inch carving knife and has just threatened to kill all family members)

Conversely, I chance upon Mr H and associate laying about the said miscreant with a bat and other aids to violence. Under such circumstances, Mr Hís gonads and larynx would acquire zero vertical separation and his accomplice would become intimately acquainted with the readily surrendered bat.
I doubt you would do that, what tough talk GBZ, but if you did then I guess you would be doing a 2.5 year stretch now.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 14:02
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Applause for what?
For very eloquently making a point about what might ensue if the level of violent behavior exercised by Mr. Hussain would be condoned: The distinction between "the good guys" and "the bad guys" would become very blurred indeed.

That isnít much consolation, Sir George, should one have arrived at the front door of Chez Red-Neck to ask directions or beg assistance with some external embuggerance.
And this one's just plain priceless.
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 14:06
  #59 (permalink)  
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Say a mugging...does the victim therefore have the right to run after and say break the mugger's arm.. or is it a leg.. or neck?
Yes..........
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Old 22nd Dec 2009, 14:56
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Olandese

I would love to see your reaction should two guys break into your house this christmas day and tie up your family, stick a blade under you mother, wife and childrens throats screaming they are gonna f*****g kill them and give them all a good punch in the face or torso. What would you do? When they run and reach the front door perhaps stand and wave saying call again soon? Personally, I would pursue them at all costs and should the police (whom I would call - but probably be charged with using my mobile in my car) fail to catch them before me I would wreak such havok and devastation upon getting them within reach that their bodies would probably be unrecognisable. Should I be sentanced to 10 years and asked would I do it again, to protect my family absolutely yes.
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