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Drugs, common sense & middle England

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Drugs, common sense & middle England

Old 16th Sep 2009, 22:20
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps this begs a deeper question? what is it about the human condition that we strive for this chemical escape into oblivion, the altered mind and alternative reality,and tiz a ancient quest we appear to have striven for this escape since since we came down from the trees,why?wither? what for?
Wow. Heavy Mr D
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 00:12
  #22 (permalink)  

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I have always been a proponent of legalizing marijuana, treat it and control it the same as alcohol and tobacco. In other words tax the crap out of it.

In many areas of the United States marijuana is a natural, indigenous plant. In Oklahoma it grows about everywhere. In fact we found a cluster of marijuana plants growing on the south side of the Marshal Service hangar shortly after we moved into the hangar.

Harder drugs, no, keep them illegal. Ask any cop who has come upon a mean drunk, someone spaced out on PCP or someone stoned and they tell you who they would much perfer to deal with.

By the way, excellent post Mr. Draper.
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 00:24
  #23 (permalink)  

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Completely agree Con. A drunk is predictable, a smoker is predictable, a dope-head is predictable but someone high on smack is not.

Legalize it, tax it.

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 03:44
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Lock the addicts up in rehab centers and cure them. That way they aren't out contaminating the rest of society. A smack head is going to mug someone or break into a car anyway so why wait for the crime to be committed ?

Get them off drugs, once they're cured release them but subject them to regular random tests. Fail a test, back inside.
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 07:19
  #25 (permalink)  
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A drunk is predictable
Only in their condition. Saturday night round here would dispel that idea madam Whirls.
Druggies are far more predictable provided we're not talking about the loopy stuff; pcp, speed etc. Pcp never realy happened in the UK, seems to be a US thing in the main.
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 14:13
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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"Legalise it and they can collect taxes on it. Simple".

...and what of the black markets that emerge subsequently would we not be back to square one.Except this time weve employed another 10,000 public sector workers smashing the black markets, are having to be more vigilant against smuggling of "tax free" drugs from abroad...perhaps we could buy duty free drugs at the airport.

"Can I see your boarding pass plase sir"

"So thats 100oz of skunk, 500 rizla papers, 10 Kg cocane ( right on the limit there sir aren't we, but if your mothers not using her allowance you could increase it!) 500 Es and Good House Keeping magazine.."

"American Express? " "that'll do fine, have a nice flight"
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 15:08
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Make it legal and collect the taxes on it sounds like a great idea..
but what happens when the government gets greedy and ups the taxes ?

We moved forward or backward to smugglers bringing it in illegally as now happens with tobacco and ciggy's.

seems a bit like a no win situation or am I just being cynical
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 19:16
  #28 (permalink)  

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Burnt Fishtrousers - I find your scenario very unrealistic... hardly anybody seems to take American Express these days

Im in two minds about the legalising of drugs. The debate seems to be completely polarised, the anti drugs people thing that there would be a large increase in drug addiction whereas the pro drugs people seem to thing that addiction is not a problem.

In my student days to make ends meet I worked in a bar on Friday and Saturday nights. Fridays were the normal night when most people were drunk, Saturdays was the dance night when most people were on happy pills. There was never any trouble on the Saturday nights.

On the face of it I think that marijuana, which is relatively harmless, should be legalised, however, my main argument against it is that many teenagers smoke it as an act of rebellion. If it was legalised it would not be rebellious to use it so would they not go onto something which was more harmful?
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 20:19
  #29 (permalink)  
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Maijuana ain't as harmless as it used to be.
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Old 17th Sep 2009, 22:34
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Give them away .....

Doors is right.

We need the lowest possible street price (zero) irrespective of the balance of supply and demand.

If a user knows where to get it, and tells the authorities where, (s)he should get it for free.

So decree that all illegal drugs are state property; that it is an offence to possess them unless you are about to take them; and require the authorities to repossess any brought to their notice. From this repossessed holding the drugs are to be issued free of charge to users who are about to take them.

The dealers will be worse off. In fact they no longer have a viable business.

The addicts will be no worse off. They already get whatever the dealers put on the market and this will not increase. But their lives will be easier because they no longer need to find money to pay for it.

The rest of us will be better off because we will now only be burgled by thieving scumbags. The drug addicts won't need to.

Nobody goes to prison, there are no court cases or legal costs, so it won't cost the taxpayer much - a bit of unemployment pay for a few prison officers and lawyers perhaps, and a bit of extra police time dealing with the consequences for drug dealers who got their supplies on credit and find themselves unable to pay their bills. All in all, quite a tidy solution IMHO.
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Old 18th Sep 2009, 02:42
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Maijuana (sic) ain't as harmless as it used to be.
Sorry Sprogget but you're wide off the mark here. Quality of grass and resin (aka hashish) has been varying wildly for decades. I've seen stuff that wouldn't get one anywhere if one smoked half a kilo (it just makes you feel dull, and gives you a headache just like inferior wine), and I've come across stuff that would send one in geostationary orbit upon smoking a bit the size of a match head.
When you come across the former, you'd rather avoid, when you come across the latter, you adjust accordingly.

When one smokes, the effect makes itself almost instantly felt - if you've had too much, you simply crash out. The thing one has to be careful about is eating it - it takes awhile (an hour at least) before taking hold, and if one goes overboard (certain well made "brownies" taste good indeed) there's no way back, one just has to sit it out.
On one quite memorable occasion long ago I made pancakes laced with those parts of certain homegrown plants that were considered not suitable for smoking. They were a huge success: one of my guests later commented he'd been spaced out for one week.

All this talk about "killer skunk" by the adepts of Whacky Jacqui is just plain BS. Some grass is indeed quite strong, but a sensible person would know (and/or notice) the difference between say beer and vodka. Now would you drink a pint of vodka?
Of course, there are persons who just aren't sensible, but these would get themselves in trouble in any number of ways, with or without "killer skunk".

That said, my considered opinion is that, when used in a responsible manner, marijuana is quite harmless, and criminalizing those who use it is just not on.
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Old 18th Sep 2009, 07:39
  #32 (permalink)  
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Well, my schtick is to decriminalise it & the rest of the naughty things too. Round here, where we have about the worst drug problem in the UK, marijuana has been found laced with heroin, pretty nasty stuff.
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Old 18th Sep 2009, 11:13
  #33 (permalink)  

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Well, it WAS legal in the UK until 30 years or so ago. Addicts were registered and got a scrip - pick up their stuff at the chemist. No muss, no fuss.

Lots of addicts lived perfectly respectable lives on a stable dose and few people know about their "little habit",

Then it was all phased out and the drug lords got going

And here we are now....

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Old 18th Sep 2009, 12:25
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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There should be kiosks on every street corner
giving the stuff away for free.
With the slogan "Have a nice trip"
When was cannabis criminalised???
I thought it was only in 1947 or thereabouts?
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Old 18th Sep 2009, 12:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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marijuana has been found laced with heroin
Which is merely a direct consequence of prohibition.

Marijuana is a plant, you can grow it in your backyard. However if you get caught doing so, you will almost certainly be done for "possession with intent to supply", and the average user would rather not take the risk and thus depends on the black market.

Besides, if the heroin-laced marijuana is to be seen as an attempt by pushers to move users on to more addictive substances, I don't know how effective that would be.
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Old 18th Sep 2009, 13:52
  #36 (permalink)  
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Added to which much drugs crime is very expensive for the victim whilst the amount gained by the addict is often only 1 or 2 fixes. A car stereo may get the druggie 20-30 down the pub but cost the victim 200 to replace plus the damage to the car.
Why would anyone pay 200 for a stereo when you can get one for 20 off a man down the pub?



There's two sides to every question.
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Old 18th Sep 2009, 14:02
  #37 (permalink)  
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Marijuana was criminalised in the UK in 1928.
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Old 19th Sep 2009, 04:09
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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That way they aren't out contaminating the rest of society. A smack head is going to mug someone or break into a car anyway so why wait for the crime to be committed ?
What a crock of ____.

Some, a relatively small number of addicts (addicts of legal or illegal drugs), resort to crime because it is the only way they can get the money to buy the drugs they need to feed their addiction.
Though they may be able to be 'cured' of their addiction quite frankly there are some people who will be scummers no matter what; for those people then yes the crime and punishment approach is necessary.
However the reactionary, ignorant nonsense about 'contaminating' society disappears in a puff of smoke - if people can get clean, reliable, controlled drugs without having to resort to criminal activity to afford, buy or use drugs (legal or illegal).

Until 'illegal' drugs are treated like legal drugs and until we start treating drug use as a health and education issue we are damned to continue a war that has failed miserably and served no one but organised crime and the profiteering of agencies that supposedly fight it.
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Old 19th Sep 2009, 06:38
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Unless someone is wealthy, there is no way they can finance a heroin habit without resorting to crime. Once is addict is well down the road of addiction, they are incapable of holding down any job let alone a well paid one. That leaves dealing, stealing and for the women prostitution.

Lock them up, administer treatment and cure them. If they revert back to drugs then lock them up again. Keep them off the streets where they are breaking into cars and selling drugs outside schools.

I'm sure a lot of addicts thought they could control it when they started and were proven wrong.
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Old 19th Sep 2009, 09:13
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps this begs a deeper question? what is it about the human condition that we strive for this chemical escape into oblivion, the altered mind and alternative reality,and tiz a ancient quest we appear to have striven for this escape since we came down from the trees,why?wither? what for?
How very profound Mr D.

Lock them up, administer treatment and cure them.
I wish it were that simple, unfortunately it isn't. In this situation, you can't "administer treatment" or "cure them," just as you can't "cure" a smoker/alcohol user/wife beater/(choose your behaviour) My clients tell me that it's sometimes easier to get high on the inside than on the outside.

I often laugh when I hear that courts have "imposed" an intervention on a convict-it just doesn't work unless there is some change from within.

Yes, we can nudge the individual into this frame of mind, by making the other choices less palatable, (for example:you can't see your children if you continue to batter your wife, you won't get your driving licence back if you continue to use alcohol, your lung function will continue to decrease if you continue to smoke etc etc), but the choice to change the behaviour has to come from the individual themselves.

It's easy to get on the moral high ground about drug use. It was interesting to see the sort of hierarchy that existed amongst the substance abusers-the pissheads looked down on the space cadets, the space cadets looked down on the coke'heads, and the coke'heads looked down on the smack'heads (their words, not mine.)

Top of the pile, looking down, were usually the white middle classes, who were (usually) afforded better opportunities than those at the bottom. I accept that there is some element of choice in the matter, but what I would say to those sitting in judgement, if you wish to increase your insight, spend some time engaging withnusers-it's a real eye-opener-some of the events which have started people on this journey are terrible. There but for the grace of god.

Here are a few of my observations, based on many years of working with drug users:
  • by the time you start injecting drugs, you are a very sick (poorly) individual.
  • I have seen examples of people coming out of the other end of this nightmare journey-they've needed support along the way.
  • the decision to change their journey came from them, not me.
  • The drugs themselves usually didn't cause the harm/death-it was the lifestyles adopted to pay for the drugs themselves which caused harm-thieving and prostituting themselves etc
  • Crime did generally pay for their lifestyle-but they didn't generally come to my house to steal, they usually robbed from their own.
Even amongst professionals, these people were seen to be at the bottom of the pile-they can be unkempt, disruptive, manipulitive and chaotic. In all honestly, although I try to make a consciouss effort not to be judgemental myself, I guess I've been as guilty as the rest at some stage.


I guess, in theory, legalisation, or at least some form of controlled access, should address some of these issues. The traditional argument against, is that we could be seen to "encourage" use, although I havn't seen any evidence for this.

I'm not huffy fluffy, I just want to make a difference.
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