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NZ greenstone court case verdict

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NZ greenstone court case verdict

Old 15th Feb 2008, 08:27
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NZ greenstone court case verdict

for those awaiting the verdict:


http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NationalNe...fault.aspx#top
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 14:37
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Might seem a silly question, but having read and re-read this story , am I to understand these guys are being Jailed for nicking some stone, has God touched this stone or is it the currency they deal in?

Peter R-B
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 16:28
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Re; Dave Saxton.

From what I've read, Dave Saxton is regarded as one of the legendary pilots of the venison live-capture industry in NZ. Locking up an out-doors type like him is harsh, even taking into account the crime committed.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 18:04
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Lightbulb The Judiciary:

Sorry I am not mad enough to fly a mixmaster, all those flaying parts, all that noise, and the nose bleeds above 500 ft<, and the vibration, UGHHHHHH?

Is totally f----d up in NZ;

I agree that what Dave did was wrong:

The punishment does not fit the crime:

This is RACIST BULL SHIT'E:

300K in reparation to the tribe! their name tarnished, they have learnt their lesson, together with a whole community/town that endorsed a non custodial sentence.

A pair of operators that have time and again risked their necks for amongst those in need being "MAORI" be it lost in the bush, road accidents, bush & property fires, sick and injured Hospital transfers, and an awful lot of it over the years done for "free".

When I see Maori offenders getting sentences that amount to a slap in the face with a wet “TISSUE” for far more serious offences to the community at large:
( Talking Human lives, and property here)

A career Judge who obviously wants to score points with the Government and Judiciary.

Or is it the reverse? a Judge doing as he is told from AUNTY HELEN??????

BLOOD in the streets, in the very near future, it has to happen, I can’t see any other way!

The only commonality is that on both sides of the fence, the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, whats the adgenda? and who’s adgenda is it?

Chr's
H/Snort

Read on:

Friday February 15, 05:22 PM
Haast pair jailed, to pay Ngai Tahu $300,000 compensation
A Haast father and son have been jailed for more than two years, while Ngai Tahu has agreed to accept $300,000 compensation from them for the theft of greenstone (pounamu) from South Westland's Cascade Plateau.
It was a tense and dramatic day in Christchurch District Court today with negotiations over the compensation and then the sentencing, ending in some of the men's supporters crying.
David Anthony Saxton, 62, and Morgan David Saxton, 30, began with an offer of $240,000 but crown prosecutor Robin Bates told Judge Gary MacAskill that Ngai Tahu did not regard that as enough.
The sentencing today followed a restorative justice conference where no agreement had been reached.
After the offer from defence counsel Colin Withnall QC the court adjourned so that negotiations could take place directly.
When it resumed early afternoon, Mr Bates said agreement had been reached on a figure of $300,000, but he said Ngai Tahu had made it clear they did not regard that as a reflection of the value of the loss and accepted it "as a pragmatic resolution of the matter".
Mr Withnall said the Saxtons -- helicopter pilots in the remote South Westland community -- offered the $240,000. "The funds will be found," he told the court.
When the negotiations settled at the higher figure, he said the money would be found with some difficulty. "It's a question of the family rallying round."
Ngai Tahu will also get back almost $200,000 worth of greenstone that was found by the police on properties associated with the family.
In a two month trial before a judge last year, the pair was convicted of stealing greenstone in the period from October 1997 to September 2003. The crown said the greenstone was the property of Ngai Tahu. Two other charges relating to periods before and after this time were dismissed.
Judge MacAskill sentenced David Saxton to two years nine months jail, and Morgan David Saxton to two years six months, as well as the reparation payment. They will have to write a public apology which will be printed in the Ngai Tahu magazine.
He noted their actions had caused affront and upset to the Maori community. Their offending had been planned, involved a large amount of loss, and had a strong commercial element.
He noted too that they had enormous support from social and business contacts in the community. "But you failed to adhere to the standards that the wider community is entitled to expect of you"
The negotiations with Ngai Tahu have also included discussions about the two men being willing to share the knowledge they have of greenstone sites across the area. They did not have detailed survey points for the stone, but knew about it through their skills as bushmen.
According to the crown, the Saxtons extracted $680,000 worth of greenstone and had the other $200,000 worth of stone stored on family properties.
But Mr Withnall said the crown figures took no account of the cost of finding, mining, and hauling out the stone. For the $200,000 worth of stone found on the properties, those costs amounted to about $150,000.
He said David Saxton "acknowledges he took the greater role and has the burden to carry of having involved his son in this offending".
Both men were rescue pilots and had often risked their lives to save others. They deserved credit for this service to others, at their own risk, and their service to the tourism industry.
They were regarded as generous and trustworthy. "It is an aberration that they are before the court on this matter. When you look at what they have done, and what they do, it is inexplicable that they should be here today."
He said prison was not an appropriate sentence for them. "They have a great deal more to contribute to society. For men who have lived their lives in the air and in the mountains, imprisonment is a particularly harsh sentence."
He handed to the judge a bound book of references. "Ninety-five percent of the adult population of the Haast-Jackson Bay community support them remaining in their community. That must be quite remarkable, unique."
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 19:22
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Not really Rotorheads forum stuff, this.

Off to JB
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 20:14
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This whole business is absolute corrupt racist political bullsh1t.

I interviewed Harvey Hutton on work release from home detention early last year. We haven't run the story yet because we didn't want to prejudice either Harvey's appeal or the Saxtons' trial.

Harvey had a permit to mine greenstone from at least nine years before the rights to same were handed over to Ngai Tahu. He never stole a thing and did eighteen months for it.

The Saxtons claimed customary rights through a relative. If they can't claim Ngai Tahu ancestry then neither can Mark Solomon or anyone else from the tribe, which hasn't had a pure blood Maori in it for more than 100 years.

In any event the greenstone was never the Government's to give, because the South-Westland Ruananga - who supported Hutton in court - have a specifically modified version of the Treaty, signed by Bunbury, which specifically gives them possession of the greenstone, and the Ruananga don't claim to be part of Ngai Tahu.

But Ngai Tahu and the Government have conspired - yes, conspired - to deny any claims contrary to the Waitangi process, because neither of them want the truth about pre-Maori settlement to be told. Neither Mori Ori nor Waitaha, of whom the Ruananga are part, are or were Maori peoples.

I seriously wonder how much of Ngai Tahu's $170 million settlement came back the other way into someone's pocket.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 20:18
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But did they say SORRY!!
GAGS
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 20:20
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So can we expect your story to be out soon ??
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 21:23
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Funnily enough watched "Deer Wars" yesterday
I remember years ago, I think it was Crumpy telling a yarn about some pakeha that mined a secret stash of greenstone on the wooly West Coast
Good luck with the Iwi bluey ...yer kin stick it.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 21:25
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Peter-RB:

Greenstone is a very hard nephrite jade otherwise known as Pounamu. It is found in NZ and Australia.
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 06:34
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And found in Canada.Import it from Kanuk land to NZ to make tiki's out of it 'cause the NZ stuff too dare!
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 07:32
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Kiwiland got enough dumbasses without importing Canucks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenstone%2C_Ontario
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 07:37
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So can we expect your story to be out soon ??
Yes, any month now, once the legal people have given us the all clear.
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 09:20
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Not really Rotorheads forum stuff, this.

Off to JB

How could this not be a rotorhead thing? OUt of respectful curiosity of course. Here are two well known, highly skilled pilots that have gotten into some serious and undeserved trouble.

Maybe it's because they are not poms that they are not worth a mention. Or is it because we are kicking butt in the cricket!

 
Old 16th Feb 2008, 19:51
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Don't let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy

Hog.....Rupert, what have you been snorting???

The Saxton's made a voluntary offer of $240,000 to Ngai Tahu when they arrived in court. The judge delayed sentencing to allow a restorative justice process to take place where the quantum was negotiated up to $300,000. It was the Saxton's who brought that money to the table and voluntarily took part in the restorative justice process. Please explain how that is ‘racist bullshite.’

Before the National Government of the day vested Pounamu to Ngai Tahu it belonged to the Crown and was controlled under the Crown Minerals Act. So before stealing from the private owner the Saxton’s systematic illegal removal of stone was theft from, well, everyone!

It is not surprising that 95% of the adult populations of Haast and Jacksons Bay supported a non custodial sentence. The total population of those communities is some 350 people. These communities must’ve been horrified that a family that has given so much to them and to others were facing such a fall from grace.

But remember, their generosity and “free” rescues were underwritten by the theft of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of a valuable stone. So how generous was it really?

Bluewolf, you have obviously been snorting something much stronger than Mr Rupert!!!

Harvey's case is a little less clear cut than the Saxton's. He did hold a mining licence prior to the Government vesting the ownership of pounamu with Ngai Tahu. But there was no doubt that the regime would change, and it did. The law changed and he chanced his arm carrying on taking stone as he wanted to and got away with it… for a while.

Yes Harvey had SOME Maori support in court, and yes there are some that don't accept present day Ngai Tahu! (There are Maori from nearly every tribe who hark back to bygone days – gee, sounds a bit like the rest of society does it not?) But they are disparate groups who've never been able to prove their case.

Even the Waitangi Tribunal, which you say the Government and Ngai Tahu colluded agin, ruled that whilst Ngati Tahu arrived in the South Island a lot later than Waitaha and Kati Mamoe (amongst others) that the former had effectively been subsumed into what became modern day Ngai Tahu.

This argument that it was "not the Crown's to give" is exactly the proposition that was made by various Maori in regard to the foreshore and seabed issue. That is, that the Crown never had title to that strip of land and therefore it still belonged to Maori. Look where that argument got those people. No where?

The Saxton's claim of customary rights! They tried it through a family member's father in law. Now, anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of customary rights and their application could view that as nothing more than an attempt to retrospectively justify their theft. It was misguided at best - cynical in the extreme at worst.

As to the theory that those earliest inhabitants aren't, or weren't, Maori just don't stand up to any decent challenge, least of all from science. There is a quaint wee genetic fingerprint called mitochondrial DNA which dismantles your proposition.

Please post your article. I will be most interested to read it.

Hughesy said: "serious and undeserved trouble"

Don't let blind sycophancy and your personal awe for two flying legends of the South Island cloud your judgement as to the facts! Flying legends they are, but sadly now crooks they are too.

As I have already said Harvey's case is a little less clear. However, the Saxton's systematically ripped off someone else’s property and made hundreds of thousands of dollars in doing so.

I am sad that two pilot’s who should’ve gone down in New Zealand’s helicopter history as legend’s have tarnished there own reputations with ego and greed.

TK
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 21:57
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Bluewolf, you have obviously been snorting something much stronger than Mr Rupert!!!
I wish.

Harvey's case is a little less clear cut than the Saxton's. He did hold a mining licence prior to the Government vesting the ownership of pounamu with Ngai Tahu. But there was no doubt that the regime would change, and it did. The law changed and he chanced his arm carrying on taking stone as he wanted to and got away with it… for a while.
Not so. He carried on mining, but paid his royalties to the tribe rather than to the Government as he had been doing. The tribe accepted these monies. Almost alone of the miners, Hutton had paid his dues all the way through. This was why, almost alone of the miners, he was able to be traced.

But they are disparate groups who've never been able to prove their case.
Prove it to whom?

Even the Waitangi Tribunal, which you say the Government and Ngai Tahu colluded agin, ruled that whilst Ngati Tahu arrived in the South Island a lot later than Waitaha and Kati Mamoe (amongst others) that the former had effectively been subsumed into what became modern day Ngai Tahu.
By the same token one could argue that the whole of Maoridom has long since been subsumed into the Ngati Pakeha. There is no Maori race anymore, and there hasn't been, for more than 100 years in the South Island and about half that time in the North. There are, however, a significant number of New Zealanders with some degree of Maori ancestry.

This argument that it was "not the Crown's to give" is exactly the proposition that was made by various Maori in regard to the foreshore and seabed issue. That is, that the Crown never had title to that strip of land and therefore it still belonged to Maori. Look where that argument got those people. No where?
The foreshore and seabed issue was never about who did or didn't own the foreshore and seabed. It was always about the Government denying Marlborough Maori the right to argue their claim of ownership in the Courts. No-one should ever be denied the right to take their claim to the Courts. Whether the claim is successful or not is another matter.

As to the theory that those earliest inhabitants aren't, or weren't, Maori just don't stand up to any decent challenge, least of all from science. There is a quaint wee genetic fingerprint called mitochondrial DNA which dismantles your proposition.
What a shame modern Maori steadfastly refuse to allow it to be tested, then.
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Old 14th Apr 2008, 16:29
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As far as I am concerned green stone is not the sole proerty of any tribe but the property of all New Zealanders who sould be free to take what they find, rememder the treaty was signed for the benefit of both parties, not just Maori people.
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