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The Climate Change debate

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The Climate Change debate

Old 7th Feb 2010, 17:56
  #4581 (permalink)  
RJM
 
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Yep. .
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 20:55
  #4582 (permalink)  
Just another number
 
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Any scientist who challenges the global warming theory risks losing their research grant. It's good to see that one expert in his field is prepared to take that risk;

http://www.climatechangefacts.info/C...rinterview.pdf

I wonder if Prince Charles has read that?

Dave
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 21:20
  #4583 (permalink)  
 
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I can (for the fourth time by my count) state that my view is that the global average surface temperature has been warming for the last century or so, and that this increase in temperature is partially due to human influences.
Simonpro,

ok, that's fine, everybody is entitled to view, as are though that dont agree with your view, however, what is the basis for your view ? What evidence is that view created by ?
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 21:32
  #4584 (permalink)  
 
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To return to the topic of this thread...
And in the same vein from halfway across the globe: local radio reported that in Sweden, January 2010 was the coldest in 23 years, with sub zero temperature averages on every single day. Going by the gibberish recently spouted forth by certain warmist put on his back foot somewhere, is that weather or climate? Gosh, must be the Gulf stream dissipating, we're doomed and guilty all the same.
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 08:04
  #4585 (permalink)  
 
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and a snippet in todays news..

The EU's flagship Emissions Trading System is failing to deliver vital green investment after a recession-fuelled collapse in carbon prices, MPs warned in a report out today.

Westminster's environmental audit committee is calling on the Government to consider measures guaranteeing a minimum price for carbon, such as a new carbon tax, to drum up more funds.
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 09:20
  #4586 (permalink)  
 
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After Africagate, it's Australian Droughtgate

IPCC Gate Du Jour: Aussie Droughtgate Watts Up With That?

How many more gates are still to be found in the IPCC's AR4?
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 09:24
  #4587 (permalink)  
 
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Read about bad data and bad homogenisation, you're right, showing a warming trend, for Madagascar temperatures

Munging Madagascar Watts Up With That?

You've got to grant it to GISS, they can " homogenise " anything to show nothing but a warming trend everywhere.

And yes, GISS don't " fix " temperature data, isn't it?
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 09:46
  #4588 (permalink)  
 
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Here's Met Office themselves stonewalling and blocking questions about their own Scientist Prof.John Mitchell's role in including the infamous " hockey stick " in the AR4, which smoothed away the medieval warm period. Apparently many reviewers objected to that report being inluded in the AR4, stating that the claims were inaccurate. But Prof.Mitchell swept aside all the reviewers' comments and included it in the report.

How Met Office blocked questions on its own man's role in 'hockey stick' climate row | Mail Online

When David Holland asked for Prof. Mitchell's working notes to understand on what basis he rejected reviewer comments and included the " hockey stick " in the AR4, look at how the Met Office lied about why they can't release the data requested.


" Some of the FOI requests made to them came from the same person who has made requests to the Met Office.
He is David Holland, an electrical engineer familiar with advanced statistics who has written several papers questioning orthodox thinking on global warming.

The Met Office’s first response to Mr Holland was a claim that Prof Mitchell’s records had been ‘deleted’ from its computers.

Later, officials admitted they did exist after all, but could not be disclosed because they were ‘personal’, and had nothing to do with the professor’s Met Office job.

Finally, they conceded that this too was misleading because Prof Mitchell had been paid by the Met Office for his IPCC work and had received Government expenses to travel to IPCC meetings.

The Met Office had even boasted of his role in a Press release when the report first came out.

But disclosure, they added, was still rejected on the grounds it would ‘inhibit the free and frank provision of advice or the free and frank provision of views’.

It would also ‘prejudice Britain’s relationship with an international organisation’ and thus be contrary to UK interests.

In a written response justifying the refusal dated August 20, 2008, Mr Ainsworth – then MoD Minister of State – used exactly the same language. "
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 10:04
  #4589 (permalink)  
 
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From the Mail article:

]‘It’s of critical importance that data such as this should be open. More importantly, the questions being raised about the hockey stick mean that we may have to reassess the climate history of the past 2,000 years.
And, unless the climate history of the past 2000 years is reassessed, trends for the next few hundred years or so will also be corrupted. That is the legacy we will pass to our children.
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 11:15
  #4590 (permalink)  
 
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And here's a good blog about the accuracy, or lack of it, of the GISTEMP data.

Of Hypothetical Cows and Real Program Accuracy Musings from the Chiefio
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 12:06
  #4591 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Climategate: Mad Sunday

I mean “Mad” in a good way. This was the day when so many wheels came off Al Gore’s AGW gravy train and flew off in so many different directions, it was all but impossible to keep track of them............
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 20:08
  #4592 (permalink)  
 
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I see on Channel 4 news tonight that Pachauri has just published his second work of fiction*, a raunchy novel. Someone described it as a vegetarian's guide to meat.

*What do you think the first was?
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 20:22
  #4593 (permalink)  
 
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Global taxing, global worry

Look at these Guardian news threads

Sir Richard Branson and fellow leading businessmen will warn ministers this week that the world is running out of oil and faces an oil crunch within five years.
The founder of the Virgin group, whose rail, airline and travel companies are sensitive to energy prices, will say that the ­coming crisis could be even more serious than the credit crunch

Branson warns of oil crunch within five years | Business | The Guardian

Also, Carbon prices have collapsed (Ha Ha) - but the buggers still want their loot - politicians driven by greedy bankers

MPs propose carbon tax to boost green investment | Environment | The Guardian

The European Union's emissions trading System (ETS) is failing to deliver vital green investment after a collapse in carbon prices, MPs warn in a report out today.
The environmental audit committee is calling on the government to introduce measures such as a new carbon tax to push the price of carbon from its level of €15 (£13) a tonne to what the MPs see as a more credible price of €100

Climate scientists hit out at 'sloppy' melting glaciers error | Environment | guardian.co.uk

Climate scientists who worked on the UN panel on global warming have hit out at "sloppy" colleagues from other disciplines who introduced a mistake about melting glaciers into the landmark 2007 report

This whole global warming politician / banker run money grabbing scam just makes me want to spew.

Good on you Branson for officially spilling the beans.

Lid
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 20:41
  #4594 (permalink)  
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Do remember that Sir Richard is championing Bio-Fuels for aircraft.
From 2006
Sir Richard Branson's widely-publicised decision to invest $3bn (£1.6bn) in renewable energy technologies is much more than green philanthropy.

According to some experts, the Virgin boss also is making a canny attempt to get in on the ground floor of a fast growing and innovative global industry.

Should he get it right, then the newly set up Virgin Fuels group could be an investment vehicle that would give Sir Richard's global business empire a prominent role in energy long after the 56-year-old millionaire had retired.

And it might also see him fulfil his mission to turn Virgin Fuels into a power giant in the same class as Shell or Exxon Mobil.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5370972.stm
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 21:00
  #4595 (permalink)  
 
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Good on you Branson for officially spilling the beans.
I'll submit Branson a 10/10 for his knowledge on how the concept of 'peak-TAX' on oil translates to the expected future cashflow of his businesses.

He's got f*ck-all clue about global 'peak-oil' though, if you ask me. (you didn't, I know that)
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 21:02
  #4596 (permalink)  

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Good on you Branson for officially spilling the beans.
More like filling his pockets using fear tactics.

We are not going to run out of oil in five years, fifty years or a hundred years.
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 23:10
  #4597 (permalink)  
 
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PPRUNEGATE? - I'm going to be sooo banned/deleted...

You were asking for this Flaps (why should Simenpro be the only one?)

Since it appears to be yet another bone of contention on this thread:

* A post can be edited or deleted by a user.
* If such is done within the first few minutes of the post having been made, this will not be visible.
* If a post is edited by a user at any point after that, this will be visible to all other users.
Summing up: if a user has edited his/her own posts, this will be visible to all other users.

Which (though true in this case) is irrelevant to the issue that was in question. DELETION of posts was the issue - which you knew as you gave an (incorrect) example (now edited away with egg on your face) as to how a deleted post may have hypothetically looked to other users (I remember).

If a post has been deleted this will not be visible to other users.
Correct. Albeit that is the complete opposite of what you originally proclaimed (with seeming total confidence I may add)

So anyway, for the avoidance of doubt, as things stand on PPRuNe, and have done since medieval times, one can post opinion on a thread over time, and then if subsequent argument becomes embarrassing to one's original sentiment/statements then same user can delete these and 'post-deletion' pretend/argue that they never made those statements in the 1st place. Even the sequence numbers get changed so there aren't any public gaps.

Only moderators can see deleted posts.
Hence, 'deletion' of historic posts is perfectly proveable, just not by 'users'.

Ooh and sisemen, please stop insinuating things you can not prove.
Projection Bias

...projection is always seen as a defense mechanism...
An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and redirect their libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another.

Projection reduces anxiety...
Your misjudged haste to categorically announce the Site 'protocol' maybe reveals what you personally believe as a reasonable policy. I would too given that this stuff is easily turnoff-and-onable via vBulletin software.

However, you were still completely wrong.

Siseman would not now, nor ever would have, needed to 'insinuate' had your initial statement been correct. i.e. that deletion of posts would be perfectly visible to all users (beyond a few minutes of initial post -> deletion). His point seems clearly that had the transparency you personally enjoy as a Mod (and assumed was enjoyed by the proles) been available to us mere users then this should (and would) have been a non-issue

It's not that it's not proveable, it is only that those more equal than us proles have the information to do so - and we know it.

Such transparency isn't available yet though, is it? There's the rub, no?
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 02:18
  #4598 (permalink)  
bearfoil
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I've been at depositions with less focus on recording and "proving". As if any rhetoric here must be retained, lest humanity be found in need of the logic trail of a life or death memorialization. I'd ask the stakes, but my best guess is there aren't any. There was a local in the hills who saved all his toilet paper, and started a large fire when who torched it. There's that.
 
Old 9th Feb 2010, 03:41
  #4599 (permalink)  
 
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BlooMoo - ouch! and double ouch! It'll get canned for sure

Bearfoil - I guess that fuss is about a certain poster posting things and then deleting those things 'cos it shows them up to being a total eejit and then denying that anything happened. If the individual were a member of my club then they would almost certainly be blackballed for being a total cad and bounder.

However, I suspect that Sisemen doesn't need support - he seems to be doing OK as it is. When I read his (now banned) post I trawled through the thread and found the exact post that he mentioned. And yes, it definitely stated that the writer firmly believed that CO2=AGW. That writer seems to be noticeable by their absence - perhaps they got banned as well or are too embarrassed to come on here again.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 04:18
  #4600 (permalink)  
 
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`The 747-8 Intercontinental is 16 percent more fuel efficient than the 747-400 and 11 percent more fuel efficient than the A380, the super jumbo plane made by European rival Airbus, the company says.

Boeing claims the high-capacity 747-8 Freighter will give cargo operators the lowest operating costs and best economics of any freighter aeroplane while providing enhanced environmental performance.

It provides customers with 16 percent more revenue cargo volume compared with the 747-400 freighter, the company says.’

That this aircraft flew today is another milestone in Boeing's many sound achievements. However, what is really important and significant is not the flight itself but the fact this is another major step in improving fuel efficiency and environmental performance. The major of these is reduction of emissions.

The environmental lobby, the IPCC and the believers tell us loud and long we must stop polluting the planet and reduce our emissions. `They’ wish to tax this industry because it is a `significant’ polluter and emitter of emissions.

The TRUTH is otherwise.

Since the beginning of aviation there has been a continual improvement in pollution and emission control.

The advent of the jet age with the introduction of the Boeing 707 reduced fuel burn per passenger by more than 50%; the introduction of the Boeing 747 did the same. Similar improvements happened with the introduction of almost every model; the Airbus contribution introducing the Airbus A300 series the figures shows it to be a significant improver in this area.

For each and every type following manufacture, introduction, there has been a continuous improvement to the operating efficiencies of the type accompanied with improvements in fuel efficiency and emission by-products.

The Boeing 777 made even more significant improvements to be followed by the Boeing 787 offering a further 20% improvement in fuel burn and emission reduction. Airbus claim the Airbus A350 will be another 8% more efficient again and the engine manufacturers, GE, P&W and RR, are working towards a further 20-25% improvement with the next generations of turbine engines.

The major, continuous improvements in aircraft efficiency have been accompanied by very significant and major improvements throughout the aircraft operation support industry, ATC, Scheduling, Maintenance, Freight operations, Airline Management all contributing to a highly efficient industry.

The airline industry takes its social, environmental responsibilities very seriously contributing probably more than any other industry improving these.

This has not been paid for by government largesse or handouts but by the diligence, industrious innovation and invention of those within the industry. It is from within the industry the capital has been provided, the risks taken and the work done.

The final cost has been borne by the passenger and freighter.

The environmental lobby would have all believe aviation is, next to the power industry, one of the most significant polluters of all. As such the industry must be taxed, taxed highly and indeed had the `Charlatans of Copenhagen’ had their way, would have been crippled by double tax.

When many, many other industries are closely examined, power generation, manufacture, farming, to name a few, similar significant improvements in efficiency and emission reduction are found. The environmental lobby chooses to ignore this relying on their `Mantra of Doom’ to create, implement, huge Taxes and wealth re-distribution schemes.

The science is almost no longer relevant; it is for this reason Cap & Trade, ETS schemes must be resisted to the nth degree.

DK
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