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This should be a good debate

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This should be a good debate

Old 30th Oct 2005, 18:56
  #1 (permalink)  
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This should be a good debate


"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

-Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages
248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).
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Old 30th Oct 2005, 19:14
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In my lifetime I have not seen anything that would prove those words wrong!

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Old 30th Oct 2005, 19:24
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Except perhaps we progressed through science despite the best efforts of the church,ask Copernicus.
Thats the trouble with the philosophy in question, it lags 800 years behind, I have no doubt they will eventually see it for what it is,just as we did eventually,but can we wait another 600 years forrem to catch up?
The people of the middle east should by rights rule the world now,they started it all off Mathematics astronomy chemistry,then what happens? someone wanders in from the desert with a new book of instructions forrem, and that all she wrote chaps.
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Old 30th Oct 2005, 19:25
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I went there recently after another Islamic atrocity, but somone earlier went there before me. Now Dehli at Diwali.


They ain't doing to much of a PR job for themselves, those old brothers of allah.

One scares oneself to wonder if that is why the free world's response to the recent earthquake in Kashmir ain't quite what it could be. Nah surely not !!

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Old 30th Oct 2005, 22:48
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Were a nuclear or atomic weapon to be detonated below the surface, would it cause the same effect as an earthquake, and if deep enough would those above it be shielded from radiation so that they would not show any outward signs of related illness?
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Old 30th Oct 2005, 23:01
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You think GWB was trying to blow Osama's socks off?
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Old 31st Oct 2005, 00:01
  #7 (permalink)  
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The problem with your dates tony is that Europe was in the depths of our own "Dark Age" during the time of the Islamic Enlightenment, when science, medicine and law were advancing by leaps and bounds in the middle east. That enlightenment occurred during the centuries following the life of the prophet. It eventually came to an end when the Caliphate collapsed due to a combination of sectarian in-fighting and external aggression from an emerging Europe. Interestingly, our own civilisation is about to go the same way in favour of China.

Personally, I blame the decline in Islam upon those infamous "Satanic Verses" but then, I've been reading "The Reading". Especially the bits favoured by those who bend the minds of disaffected youths to turn them into Holy Warriors (Unholy is more like it!) Its easy for one with an open mind to see how taking a few verses out of context can be used for evil purposes. But isn't that also true of The Bible?

As to the early babblings of Winston Churchill, it was an unfortunate fellow who mentioned that man in our house during my youth. My grandfather and his contemporaries in the trade union movement never forgave him for his appalling behaviour as Home Secretary during the General Strike. It was fortunate indeed that the Army ignored his instructions or he may actually have triggered the very "Revolution" that he feared. He's remembered mainly as a war hero - and so he was - but the rest of his life is a miserable tale of deceit, double dealing and infamy. He can take his fine words and shove them where the sun doesn't shine.
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Old 31st Oct 2005, 00:06
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He's remembered mainly as a war hero - and so he was - but the rest of his life is a miserable tale of deceit, double dealing and infamy.

With those qualities he would have made a great politician...
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Old 31st Oct 2005, 00:16
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I can see Sir Winston turning in his grave at his very moment saying;

Infamy, Infamy, Blacksheeps got it Infamy!!!

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Old 31st Oct 2005, 03:45
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Winston was in on the decision to bomb Dresden on Feb 13 1945, the war was nearly over, no tactical advantage to be gained, 35,000 killed in one night. Just as well he was on the winning side.

Iraq has had a reported casualty list of 26,000 civilians in two years.

U.S. has reached 2,000 military casualties in two years.

Is civilization getting to the stage where a point can be made without killing millions??

Or as I suspect, when the coalition forces pull out our friendly Muslim religion adherents, who are peace loving, and dont like being incinerated, except by car and suicide bombers, Muslim bombers that is, will kill each other in great numbers to try and prove who is the most devout, the Sunni's or the Shi'ites.

Old 31st Oct 2005, 04:03
  #11 (permalink)  
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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Do you find it interesting that Winston lived in a time when such thoughts could be expressed?

We used to say, "I don't agree with what you say, but defend your right to say it."

Now, what we say, even sometimes what we think, is proscribed if it steps on the toes of any number of protected entities.

PC/multiculturalism power, implemented through the courts by intimidation of individuals, employers, and politicians, affects how we approach our big problems, such as AIDS, Jihadism, racial and ethnic conflict, African anarchy, et al.

We are hurt by these limits on free speech, and their constraints on how we assess our options and consider our actions could ultimately prove to be our undoing.
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