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The Hunting debate - some thoughts.

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The Hunting debate - some thoughts.

Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:07
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The Hunting debate - some thoughts.

I have long had a few things on my mind with regards the Ban on hunting so I thought I'd air my thoughts.

Foxes are a pest, which we all know. Foxhunting is one of the oldest sports in the land, older even than football. Now if we tried to ban football there would be uproar.

Foxhunters are people like you and me that have a sport as a hobby, attend regular hunts and are not there to get in peoples way. It is the demonstrators and protestors that are the ones causing the problems.

The Government is here to do what the majority of the British public wants, they are here to listen to us all and do what we want. Now they have listened to the minority of people and done what they want. The people who are kicking up a fuss about this are the single minded inner city pencil pushers that have no reality of what goes on in the countryside, and have probably never lived in the countryside.

Now if hunting is banned, then where does that leave the sport of fishing, surely that is classed as hunting. AND surely that is inflicting more harm than good on the fish. Fish are living thing, much like foxes. Now with foxhunting, the fox usually dies at the end of it. Now with fishing, what you are really doing is tempting the fish by dangling a maggot (who incidently is a living thing which ends up dying) on a hook into water. the fish then goes to eat the maggot and by doing so has a hook slice through the side of its face. The fish is then dragged against its will out of the water and then it is being tortured by suffocation and then has to go through the agony of having its face pulled around while you get the hook free. It is then put back into the water only to have the same thing happen to it again in the future. The fish is suffering a prolonged period of pain, when surely the best thing to do is kill it. So the question here is what is in it for the Fish? and the maggot for that matter?

Now take this scenario for example. A major earthquake or something of the nature which you are using animals to hunt out survivors. Buildings collapse, people trapped, etc, etc. Now how would you hunt out survivors if hunting has been banned?

I would like to say here that I am niether for or against Foxhunting, Fishing or anthing that involves eating maggots!! I am trying to look at this from every angle and I realise this is sensitive to alot of people, but, as I said I just wanted to air some thoughts.

Edmund.
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:17
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought a decision had already been taken.

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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:23
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Okay CB, since I'm a bit bored at the moment.....

Just because Foxhunting has been around for a long time does not mean it is a good thing! Human sacrifice, slavery, morris dancing...

It's true though that a lot of the anti-hunting lobby are city dwellers with little idea of rural life (and death). It's also true that fishing is a blood sport and no doubt many of the anti-hunting lobby would also like to see it banned. The fact that more people go fishing than go foxhunting shouldn't make it any more acceptable, although the fact that the fish is not usually killed may be a factor.

Personally I've no desire to do either, although if I was hungry enough I think I would go for the fish first.

LP
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:25
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I do not think the Government is here to do what the majority of the public want at all, they are here theoreticaly to run the country for the benifit of the majority,that is not necessarily the same thing, if public opinion was followed to the letter we would still be hanging murderers and asylum seekers would be shot at the borders
If it ever happens that public opinion rules, the luvvies in the media would wring their hands in glee, for then they would truly rule the land, because they can manipulate the way the public thinks at will, and they are becoming very good at it after all they have been practising it for the last twenty years.
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:34
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I'll admit that I've read some shite over the years, but this must be the best so far.

Now take this scenario for example. A major earthquake or something of the nature which you are using animals to hunt out survivors. Buildings collapse, people trapped, etc, etc. Now how would you hunt out survivors if hunting has been banned?
419
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:36
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Since Adam was a boy (and I mean that literally) mankind has killed animals for food. Not long after day one I'm sure there were other reasons to, such as removal of a threat to our children, removal of competition for food, and sooner rather than later, for sport. Before you go off crying about that I have seen many TV documentaries of wild animals playing deadly games with other animals, seeming ly for the sport of it and no other reason, so this is not something that only mankind does.

Fox numbers need to be kept under control as much as any other species and the traditional hunt is just another method of doing that. I have never been on a fox hunt (in that sense) but I'm sure those that carryout that sport do it because they enjoy the day out on horse back and the company it brings.

The fox is only the excuse really.

I have been out shooting foxes in years gone by and not just for the bounty which the government offered at the time.

Your points on fishing and the magot are valid too.

In many ways most people would consider me to be a friend of nature these days, and I do support the preservation of wildlife but I acknowledge that this sometimes means that a species needs to be culled, relocated or otherwise controlled.

If hunting serves this purpose and foxes are not an endagered species then I dont have a problem with it.

If people are serious about not killing animals, then step one is to become a vegitarian, not to stop hunting.
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:38
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The fox that doesnt get hunted now will most likely end up meeting its fate by the hand of man or mans trained animals anyway when it becomes a pest to the local farmers hens or similar and has to be exterminated.
Whats the difference in the end? Its the same dead fox.

From start to finish a good deal of life is brutal, trying to pretend its not is hypocritical and futile. Ah yes, that sounds about right in fact.

Incidentally, I notice since the ban my neighbours seem to have taken up mouse hunting using cats. Should they be reported, devious so and so's that they are?
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 12:42
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But maybe because the fish are not being killed is what should be being addressed here, they are being tortured and then set free while still in pain. The Fox is just killed and therefore has no knowledge of the pain it just suffered. Also there is no danger of it suffering again unlike the fish.

I have no real desire to go fishing either, I can't imagine a more boring sport. However, I do live in the countryside and I would like to participate in a Hunt to see what goes on. Like I said already I am not for foxhunting or against it. I have been fishing before and I have made up my mind on that sport, so I would like to go on a hunt so I can make my mind up on that as well. Call me old fashioned but I like to try things before I make my mind up about them.

As for the media, well we all now that they control the way the majority of people in this country think and what they believe, the tabloid papers are read by people who are easily led and are easily brainwashed!

I for one think we should bring capital punishment, hang murderers and paedophile's but that is a different topic.
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 20:59
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I don't reckon it's got anything to do with animal cruelty at all... it's 'class war' pure and simple. Perhaps I should say 'perceived class' war. Regardless of who actually hunts and for what purpose, the intolerant urban left feels the need to inhibit the lives of those of whom they disapprove.

In the words of an anonymous urbanite: "they don't seem to understand that, while they might still own the countryside, they don't run the country any more". Great.

Never felt strongly about foxhunting either way but, as a member of HM Forces, I've always believed in 'live and let live' in the context of a (reasonably!) liberal democracy. I'm now tempted to take up foxhunting purely as its the only way (as a disenfranchised white middle class heterosexual male) I have left to protest against the illiberal left. But then, there's plenty of opportunity with more horses than people in my particularly picturesque village!
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 21:14
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I can see both sides of the argument - but -

I do have a real problem with the celebration, glorification and possible tittilation in witnessing the death of an animal.

Are these the same people who download videos of beheadings?
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 21:42
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Lightbulb

This reminds me that I must buy some worms (preferably in can?) when I go fishing for the first time next week.....

VFE.
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Old 23rd Oct 2004, 23:07
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Of course it's a class issue!
If the "sport"wasn't dominated by toffs and suported by the aristos and ruling classes it would have been banned years ago.
Badger Baiting,Dog Fighting,Cock Fighting were all part of our quaint rural tapestry for years you know.Mostly practiced by foul working class types though so thankfully long gone.Put thousands of Badger Tongers on the dole though.Tragic.
Here's an Idea-
Foxes are more common in urban areas,and Fox hunting has a bad "Toff" rep,,,,so,,
Let the council house dwellers dress up in matching shell suits and chase urban foxes on motorbikes with their Pit Bulls.The young kids could be "blooded" after witnessing thir first street kill.A whole social scene could revolve around the new hunt with cans of Superlager handed to the riders.Jobs could be created breeding staffies and supplying bikes.Toffs could tag along at the back on horseback and be dragged onto camera for interviews to prove what an eclectic group the hunters really are.Within a few years this sport would form the very fabric of urban life.The vermin foxes would be controled and every one would have a rare old time and not harm a sole.A few do-goody country types who just have no idea about life in a scheme would probably object but we could always block any opposition in the Lords once it's entirely made up of retired social workers.
How does that sound?
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Old 24th Oct 2004, 07:21
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HSLC - brilliant idea!

But;

every one would have a rare old time and not harm a sole
So are you opposed to the working class bloodsport of fishing then?
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Old 24th Oct 2004, 12:20
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Well I have a plan:- What about introducing some suicide foxes - much more sporting. Strap semtex to a couple and when the pack are about to rip the animal to bits... BOOM!
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Old 24th Oct 2004, 14:01
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Here in backwoods, underdeveloped and uncivilised Australia, foxes are not perceived as noble animals to be hunted by the upper class on their horses in hunting pink - they are introduced vermin, otherwise known as ferals. Our upper class - such as it is - are too busy hunting money and eligible partners to be bothered with foxes.

We don't pursue foxes with hounds. Most of us don't have a horse, most of us don't own a set of hunting pink. Doesn't fit in well with the Aussie bush, you see. We hunt foxes by whatever means we have, be it lying in wait on a known fox-trail, or using a fox whistle, or just wandering about the place keeping the eyes open.

When we find them, we shoot them with whatever piece we happen to be carrying. From the humble 12Ga, through the 17 Remington, the 222 and 223, the 243 and even 308 calibres, foxes are shot at and killed as often as we can physically get around to it. Even our Greenies (known as watermelon greens because they are green on the outside and red all the way through to the centre) don't stand up for foxes.

If we see a fox on the road we try to run over it. We poison them with Sodium Monofluoroacetate (called "1080" or "Ten-Eighty"). We set traps for them. No matter how we do it, we kill the little red bastards. Vermin and ferals deserve nothing but death.

The English may hold foxes in high regard - out here they are interlopers, ferocious predators that have no place in our ecology, along with many other species introduced by our English settlers. Foxes in Australia deserve just one thing - instantaneous death. Nothing less will do, nothing less is expected.

What you English allow your limp-wristed, wet, Labor Governments to inflict on you is your own fault - you voted them in! England always fares worse under Labor governments than under Conservative ones. How many times do you have to sup with the devil before you learn to use a very long spoon? But you put 'em there. Nobody else. You did.

The solution is obvious - see to it at your next turn at the ballot-box, and if you want to hunt foxes, do it properly - get a shotgun and get serious about destroying the rabies-carrying Reynards.
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Old 24th Oct 2004, 14:47
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'Watermelon Greens'

I like that one.
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Old 31st Jan 2005, 18:54
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Start a new thread for something as mundane as a clampdown on animal activists? Not likely! A little searching came up with this one which should do.

Because I have found the argument to thwart the UK hunting ban. A solution which has escaped the most brilliant legal minds, even those of Davaar and the Flying Lawyer!

Which is to associate hunting foxes with research! After all, the same strategy has worked very well for Norway and Japan ever since the International Whaling Commission was established in 1946. Is it any more or less cruel, to use an explosive harpoon as a weapon, compared to a pack of hounds?! Together with the proposed amendments to the Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill, this should be all that is necessary to keep Basil down for a very long time into the future.

I rest my case.... but am not quite finished!

Having read this handy thread through, I couldn't let the last post from criticalmass pass without comment...

One notes in passing that some people truly believe that man has dominion over all other creatures. Who knows where that idea came from, but it must be good? Unless it's a trick?! And anyone who mistakes pink from a scarlet red may need help. In more ways than immediately come to mind. But let's not jump to conclusions. Poison is a great way to deal with all vermin. And the other 90% of creatures, that maybe are not in the strictest sense of the term. But what's really great about poison, is that it's relatively slow in action. So that when you eventually come across the dead vermin, you can congratulate yourself on your efforts and blame this dead vermin for the deaths of all the non-vermin you came across earlier. This paragraph deserves special attention though:
The English may hold foxes in high regard - out here they are interlopers, ferocious predators that have no place in our ecology, along with many other species introduced by our English settlers. Foxes in Australia deserve just one thing - instantaneous death. Nothing less will do, nothing less is expected.
I think there must be a few aborigines who would generally share this point of view concerning introduced species...

Many years have passed:

The Ozzie finally regains consciousness and finds himself fixed to a post on some sort of conveyor belt. He looks to the left and sees Tony Blair. "Am I in heaven yet he asks?" And as an after-thought, "what the 'eck are you doing here?". Just then, a shot rings out (.223) closely followed by several more (.308?). Tony slumps, but manages to get out "I only did it for the votes..." "Streuth" goes Ozzie, turning to his right. Where he is confronted by the sight of a fox, barely alive, and with multiple bullet wounds. "I died of old age" mumbles the fox, "never in my wildest dreams did I expect to be confronted by this in heaven!" he goes. "Well, who's shooting at us then?" goes Ozzie. "Maybe those that believe that they have dominion over us...I'd have been better off against a few hounds?!" replies the fox, before falling against the straps. Ozzie shouts aloud with rage, "Is this some sort of a Castlemain XXXX trick?"
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Old 31st Jan 2005, 21:30
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England always fares worse under Labor governments than under Conservative ones.
There are (or were) several mining communities who would ever so slightly disagree with you on that point. But well done for dragging the thread off topic.

Ah what the hell, while we're off topic. There are a couple of million former unemployed who will also disagree with you.

and,

Longest period of sustained economic growth on record.

and,

A rugby world cup win.

Back to the thread.

Foxes in UK are a natural wild animal, if you can't passively protect your own domestic animals from them it's your own look-out.

I just object to people (sic) enjoying the persecution, torture and murder of living creatures....just for fun!!
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Old 31st Jan 2005, 22:39
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The decision to pursue the ban on hunting with dogs was taken purely as a political “points scorer”. Tony Bliar had promised his bickering anti-Euro/Europe/anything backbenchers a “titbit” just to get them off his back – an act of appeasement. The need to use the Parliament Act to finally force through this legislation only highlights the fact that the case against hunting with dogs was, if not losing ground (credibility?), certainly wasn’t gaining any.

What we're seeing now is just another facet of the in-vogue Politically Correct minorities flexing their new-found muscle. I just wonder how many of you out there would be so keen to show your support for another "element" of the PC minority when they buy the empty field next to your comfortable housing estate and start their own little "community" in it? It's very easy to say "Oh yes, I totally disagree with hunting - let's ban it" when the effects don't actually land on your doorstep. Now that the deed is done, just take a moment to think of the effect this ban is going to have on entire country communities. I hope that you will never have to live with an unpleasant legacy imposed on you by the views and wishes of a "minority" element.

A vote winner? Certainly, if you’re one of the in-a-very, very-small-minority anti-everything in the countryside activists, or a NIMBY. If you’re a country dweller/lover – definitely not.

Joe Public (the MAJORITY!!) probably couldn’t have really cared less – there were far more pressing issues to deal with. Too late now, though
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Old 1st Feb 2005, 01:03
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Where I'm from, we follow a simple rule
"You Kill It--You Eat It"

I've no problem with hunting (do it myself) as long as one uses what one kills. Aside from the obvious problems of ferals that Criticalmass relates from Oz, it isn't a bad way to live.

Oh, and by the way, yes that includes anything that was salvageable after I smoked it with my truck, or in one case, chopped it in two with a 748 propeller.
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