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Women in the flight deck

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Women in the flight deck

Old 26th Aug 2004, 19:42
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Women in the flight deck

Just wondering what everyone's opinion of women pilots is??
I was recently having a discussion with fellow students, comments arose like...
The sky is blue
It's called a cockpit... (as opposed to the women alternative)
They should be handing out lollies..
You know all the normal pig stuff you'd expect to hear from a class full of males.
Anyway just wondering what everyone's thoughts are?? I thought these sorts of comments would have been done with ages ago??? Or is it still around??
One point that arose is that Airwork seem to have a no women policy??
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Old 26th Aug 2004, 22:36
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DD, mate,

If there's an all women crew, it's not a cockpit, it's a box office!
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 01:10
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Have flown with a few female Captains and female F/O's - generally all good operaters, and some very nice ladies too (personality wise).

The main theme amogst them is that they feel they have to exert themselves more on the operation - whereas an all male crew (usually) just get on with the job, the females get twitchy about you touching things outside your area of responsibilty (and for this i mean something minor like the HDG selector in cruise to account for wind - on a long sector that may be the only button to twidle ) - you get responses like "WHO IS THE PILOT FLYING !!!" - You just have to shrug your shoulders, admit defeat, and get on with the job.

And by the way only 50% of the female pilots are females! The rest are all men in female bodies!!!!
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 02:09
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OP,
Well, at least someone knows how to run a two-crew cockpit...

Git yer friggin' mits off...
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 04:05
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Devil Squids

Squids are just like everyone else. Some are good some not so good. If the people hav good CRM and you are not caught up in gender, you will work well as a team.

Unfortunately some operators have varing standards they accept for initial employment and ongoing checks depending upon gender. VERY POOR, hence the term SQUIDS.

Everyone is and should be treated equal.
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 04:30
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Have just come over from JB where there is a similar topic (read: 'heated debate') that is going on....

be careful with this topic, mate.... verrrrry careful!

Comments about empty kitchens aside, the male 'vs' female thing really should be dead and buried....

If a woman can do the job just as well or better than a male, then hire her. If not, don't hire her. There are some that would take the opposite view to me that a woman should be in the galley not the 'cockpit' (can't half tell it was a man that coined that word can you? ) That is their right to have that opinion, no matter how offensive it is to me. Just as I have the right to my opinion.

I have met quite a few women pilots in my time, all of them came across as very professional and love what they do. (just as majority of male pilots did)

I do find it sad that

only 50% of the female pilots are females! The rest are all men in female bodies!!!!
If they were like that before they were pilots then fine, but it's a shame that some feel they have to change who they are to be accepted professionally....

You wouldn't usually find a male flight attendant trying to be 'one of the girls' now would you????? (Excluding the obvious of course! )

When it comes to checks. sims etc etc, if a female pilot can't complete/pass it, and has to resort to the feminine wiles of crying/pleading/emotional blackmail then IMHO that is wrong. No pilot of either gender should be given concession because of their gender (Not saying that all women use this, but most have at some stage...)

e.g. "It's that time of the month & Im not feeling so well that's why I didn't pass...." "You failed me because I'm a woman...." etc etc Those types give the rest a bad name...

This topic has been discussed before, I'm sure if you do a search will find other posts on both sides of the issue....

Sky
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 05:01
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I knew a female who kept failing her checks and threatened action because she reckoned she was being discriminated against. Funny how the others with a Y all passed. Must have been hopeless or something.
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 05:11
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Aahhh any good redblooded male will ALWAYS find a "cockpit" to get into !
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 08:04
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All I can say is that out of the 9 or 10 women I've flown with, only one was a little bit average, the rest were fine except for a particular lady who was excellent.
Sounds like the averages you would find amongst our male pilots.
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 08:15
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Yes, but could they FLY bombshell?
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 08:59
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Only ever flew with one but she could fly!! And was just as professional about it as anyone else.

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Old 27th Aug 2004, 09:26
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...and what about "men in the flight deck"....?

I wonder why nobody is never ever questioning this curious onesex space with all sort of phantasm turning around.

Worth to make some kind of effort, even if it's hard to look at one's face in the mirror!
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Old 27th Aug 2004, 13:27
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Everyone is and should be treated equal.
Far from it. Everyone is different and should be treated according to their abilities.
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 21:34
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Excuse my ignorance. What does SQUID stand for?
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 04:42
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They have no bones (except for that plastic thingy) and are therefore unable to stand.



Agree with OtC. Judge people on merit, not PC oriented requirements.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 07:32
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Just for those who seem to think that the term “cockpit” was coined in order for pilots to be able to have some sort of “nudge, nudge, wink, wink” session every time it is used, or for those who think it was introduced by men to ensure that the ladies amongst the flying “fraternity” (oops was the use of that word a Freudian sexist slip) are kept in “their place” by being reminded constantly that they are a male dominated domain, the origins of the word and its use in aviation stem from the following:

The original sense of the term was a pit for fighting cocks. These first "cockpits" were actual pits in the ground constructed (or more properly "dug" as you probably don't "construct" a pit) to house fights to the death between game cocks (essentially very stroppy, hormonally-challenged chickens). This sense appears around 1587 in the UK.

In 1599, Shakespeare used the term in Henry V to refer to the theatre and - specifically - the area around the stage. The theatrical reference was his invention, possibly playing on the idea of a cockfight being a performance

The nautical sense arose about 1700. It was not an open area, but rather a compartment below decks. Normally, it would be the sleeping quarters for junior officers, but in battle would be the hospital. This sense appears unrelated to the theatrical sense, and may have been chosen because junior officers lorded over the sailors like roosters or because of a physical resemblance to the space where chickens were kept.

Also by the 1700's "cockpit" was being used as a metaphor for any scene of combat, especially areas (such as parts of Belgium and France) known as traditional battlefields.

"Cockpit" was then adopted by pilots in World War I, who applied it to the cramped operating quarters of their fighter aircraft. There could also be a connection from the fact that it was used as above as “a metaphor for any scene of combat” as the cockpits of these fighters were certainly “scenes of combat”.

The term was then applied to the driving compartments of racing cars in the 1930s.

The modern use of "cockpit" in aviation terms includes the entire crew areas of large airliners, which are usually fairly spacious and not - hopefully - the scene of conflict (although from some comments on here, that assumption would appear to be far from valid).


Incidentally I have flown with quite a few female pilots and they have all been the same as the many male pilots I have flown with: some outstanding; some pretty good; some average; and some downright bl00dy awful.

It makes no difference what sex a person is. He or she is either good at what they do or they are not. Judge them on those merits and those alone.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 09:53
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Concerns about Women in the Cockpit

A bit on the serious side!

Don't know of any physiological of psychological reasons for not having women in civil cockipts.

There are concerns about having them at the sharp end in military/combat aircraft.

BUT

During many years as a TP and a supervisor of TPs I have assessed many new cockpits/flight decks as all of the controls relate to an established Standard Man.

So there are many aircraft out there designed and modified to ensure that the standard man can operate everything.

What did we miss? Perhaps a new thread would be of interest.

There will be some things which may need changing to come within the capability of the standard woman.

Perhaps the world wide aircraft design specifications and flight test standards should be relaxed in some areas such as Stick Force per g (SF/g) and rudder forces at Vmca. But relax SF/g too much and you give the opportunity for the weight lifter male pilot to take his aircraft too close to the ultimate load factor. Thus reconsiderations of limits have to be redefined with great care..

As a simple example, the SF/g for the F16 with its side stick controller is set at 3 pnds /g. At max 9g that is a wrist pull of 27 pnds. Can the average woman sustain that with her wrist while being subjected to 9g. For a heavy with a yoke the SF/g minimum is/used to be around 11 pnds /g.

Rudder forces are perhaps more critical for the civil fleets.

Leg and arm lengths and the ability to apply force in many directions are all relevant.

I have yet to see the specifications for the standard woman. I bet we get some funnies out of that one!

Considerations of fatigue are topical with long hauls now exceeding 18 hours.

Perhaps the time is approaching when a data transfer unit plugged into the aircaft on power up will customise the flight control computers and other systems according to the crew's characteristics. NASA may already be doing this.

Food for thought and I hope a few female comments.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 10:45
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I haven't flown with a great number of female pilots but of the small sample some are very good, some very bad and most are average (almost by definition, this has to be).

My only observation on the topic is that, on a long sector, cross flight deck conversation doesn't flow with the same ease that it does with two fellows. I suspect that this is down to basic differences in the way men and women interact generally and that two women flying together would talk more easily. Just a thought and I'm open to being shot down on this one by folk with more experience of mixed flight decks.

As an aside, one airline I worked for was reluctant to type-rate female pilots as it was perceived that they would be poached by BA which had a stronger philosophy than most of having an appropriate percentage of women in the pilot workforce.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 03:30
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Back when you could sit on the jumpseat of any ole airline I had to sit in the actual on an AA flight. The FO spent the whole flight telling me about her resume that got her there. It was impressive and I simply thought her ego was doing the talking. I spoke with the skipper in the jetway and he explained she was one of the best pilots he had ever flown with. The self love fest was because she had a phobia of being lumped in with the women who were there simply to fill a quota and that normally she was quiet and humble.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 11:44
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As SLF I've noticed that, when there's a woman on the flight deck, the female CC seem happier about their job.
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