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Bio's Soul Theory

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Bio's Soul Theory

Old 17th Jul 2001, 22:24
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Another thing that calls into question reincarnation for me is where do new souls come from?.
When good queen Bess was on the throne,there were only three million souls living in our green and pleasant land, now its close to sixty million,.
So if souls keep getting recycled,where are all these new folks coming from.?
soulwise that is.
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Old 18th Jul 2001, 02:47
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Good points about the lack of evidence for the existence of anything beyond ourselves - I agree there's no way to prove either way.

Grainger, I'm not trying to twist words to support my view; I am taking a kind of scientific position in that I won't draw a conclusion until it is supported by evidence. Until then, this is just ideas.

As I was getting at above, there are many people who seize on the merest shred of evidence as proof of their beliefs (I'm thinking of astrologers, future tellers and so on), and also many who are unshakeable in their faith in the alleged words of gods and prophets. This kind of thinking doesn't work for me.

However, I also feel strongly that for all our admirable discoveries and ideas, we know something about physical processes in the universe, but not much at all about how or why things are as they appear to be.

The 'soul' may well be, as you say, Slasher, just part of our grey matter, but I think we're not in a position to conclude anything much at all about the nature of consciousness - we just don't know enough.

That's why I'm willing to keep an open mind on this one; who knows?

Tartan Gannet, sorry about your sad loss. As you say, it seems pretty unlikely that we can meet up with our loved ones when we too depart this life, but I don't think anyone's in a position to say what may or may not happen to whatever that magical spark is inside us.

[ 17 July 2001: Message edited by: Arm out the window ]
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Old 18th Jul 2001, 09:57
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Bio, How did you get to be so damn smart babe? Why don't you share some of that intelligence with the rest of us?

Cody
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Old 18th Jul 2001, 11:27
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Flap sup yeh ok Ill give you that. I stand corrected. New born babys.

Winst mate do a bit of research on the evolution of the human brain. There are basicaly 3 parts: An inner (and very old part) with stuff like hypothalumuses. This controls breathing, heart rate, needing to pee, eat, etc. The next (and not quite so old) is the limbic "instinct" system. This initiates (but does not control) sex urges, the instinctive desire to beat the sh!t out of an agresser, territoriality, (in religious circles it can be argued this is where the so-called devils voice comes from), fear of the unknown (a built-in safety device), fear of death (same), what makes a baby instinctivley suck tits, etc. The 3rd and most recent development is the cerebral cortex. With this we can calculate the distance to the nearest quasar, decide wether to set the alarm at 4 or 6am, decide right from wrong, stratagise how to get that chick in bed, and put men on the moon. In NEWBORN babys (with the exception of brain-damaged or mutated ones) every brain is the same. The first 5 months of development (the exact time is fully debatable) determines who and what "YOU" will be.
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Old 18th Jul 2001, 23:34
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Oh Bio...
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 02:32
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Slash,

I can't believe you really buy into this "we-are-all-the-same" absurdity, which, by the way, is more or less a bloodey Communist doctrine. It's also a very religious belief indeed, in that it sets man apart from the other animals.

Or maybe you have a definition of "exactly the same" which differs fundamentally from mine.
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 06:23
  #27 (permalink)  
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We must be the same design as Slasher says, but like any machine, differences and errors occur in manufacture. That must be what influences who we will be and our soul, etc.


And Winston, mate, I am concerned about your obsession with communism all the time. We're discussing soul theories!!

Kermie

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: Kermit 180 ]
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 06:40
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What I know to be truth to me is the existance of Body, Soul and Spirit. Having experienced several occasions of "happenstances" I probably would not feel as strongly about my belief as I do now.

In my opinion there is no way these were related to brain activity, but in a deeper realm beyond understanding. Hince, a book entitled "Life after Life" by Raymond A. Moody. Jr. M.D. also depicts witness accounts of people declared clinically dead with profound experiences of the afterlife.

On one specific occasion (and I will not go into details due to the length of the story) I had a dream which came absolutely true a year later. The dream did not by any means make sense. As a matter of fact, it was so surreal I shared it with a friend for a good laugh. I even joked perhaps it was the pizza I had the nite before. However, there was no laughing taking place when one year later a complete stranger crossed my path and fulfilled the contents of that dream.

Can I prove there is a soul/spirit? Probably not. I do have this witness account of telling my dream. Is there an afterlife? You betcha! No theories for me thank you. Ha! ...And do I believe in Science? It weaves in nicely.

...That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[ 19 July 2001: Message edited by: JudyTTexas ]
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 08:29
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Winst every (healthey) HUMAN brain is the same at birth. From then on cerebral cortex development is governed by environment. So Mr & Mrs Smiths environment wouldve been diferent from Mr & Mrs Slashers. Had I been your adopted brother ar birth I certainley wouldve been a diferent individual. My "ME" wouldnt be the present "ME".
To prove my point: if you were cloned, that individual would have the exact same look and genetic make-up as Winston Smith, but because the raising environment would be diferent he wouldnt be the same old Winst weve come to know and love. Your "YOU" would be diferent from his "HE".
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 10:48
  #30 (permalink)  
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Yikes folks I get otherwise engaged for a few days and I return to find so many posts no way I can answer all of them but I'll start at the first and see how far I get tonight-

Could you expound some more on that 3am-experience?
*** 3am is a hypothetical incidence when for what ever reason you find yourself pondering questions of life which include "do I have a soul and what happens when I die" what you feel while it happens depends on you Winny hon'
My understanding of dreams is that they are simply "waste products" or merely "random scenes" ....
***I would say that you are 99.9999999% right about that but some people dream about stuff which has no explanation and turns out to be fact... it's happened to me often enough that I think it's not just chance or my incredible interlect running life like senarios ... most of the time these dreams are about things I wouldn't normally consider and didn't want to believe at the time.
- When I die, where does my soul go? Will it just continue to exist, or will it be assigned to the next physical lifeform being created at the moment? If not, does it receive unemployment benefits?
***I don't know how that works, I'm guessing we'll all find out one day, I wonder if there is an agency like New Zealands Work and income that tries to get your soul back to work >grins<
- What about animals? Do they have souls?
*** all I know is that even though she's hundreds of km away my cat climbs the walls and cries for me when I'm going through rough times... somehow she knows when I need her, it's a pain cos my parents have this Bio monitor which goes off when I'm misrible.
- Sickness and thinking
*** raised temperatures increase the speed of chemical reactions, me personally I feel like my heads stuffed with cotton wool when sick, but being sick in bed gave me TIME
- What is a "thingame"?
*** "Thing-a-me" a word used to describe an unknown item whose properties are unknown
If you are right about that the soul can't change, then how can your soul develop a relationship with Jesus?
***Pained groan, predestination versus free will it's an old old topic of debate in Christian circles, and I didn't want to get 'religious' on this thread, if I do OCB will turn up +look of fear+ let me just say that God created people in his image which I always took to mean rather than having 2 arms and legs and a head was more to do with being made of the same type of thingame energy. God is outside time, He's called the alpha and omega (beginning and the end) in the bible. Eternity is not having lots and lots of time but being outside it. So anyway my relationship with Jesus, has been, will be and is simultaniously.
Arm out the window
Don't get me wrong I didn't post this do try and convert you, I posted it because I'd had some good conversations on the topic and I promised I would try and put down some of my ideas in coherent form and post them so I could hear others views.
Grainger
yes sweetie it is just a theory, and a delightful game to.... the colour red, the sky in the morning, the feel of a friend hand on my shoulder, how good it feels to walk in the rain has both everything and nothing to do with having a soul... it's not magic dust in my opinion it's just another delightful complex part of being human .... consider this I have a computer (which is like our body) it has software (which is like the soul) the same software works differently on a 386 than it does on a pentium III, with a 386 your software will run but it works faster and has more added features on a pentium III ... maybe thats how the soul works (maybe the hardware limits the capabilities of the software ..... maybe our souls while not greater than the sum of the parts have added options when we upgrade after death?)

I know that I haven't answered hardly any of you ..... but give a girl a break I'm sick will post more when I have time

-cough sniffle croaky purr
Bio
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 11:15
  #31 (permalink)  
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Oh and Slasher babe, we have a set of identical twins impossible to get more genetically identical humans raised by the same parents sent to the same schools fed the same schools .... but completely different. What say you to this phenomenon? Or the phenomenon or twins separated at birth and adopted out who marry guys of the same name, name their kids the same thing and drive the same colour and make of car etc etc etc.... What evelutionary benifit is there to marrying a guy called Edward and driving a blue honda, having kids called Tom and Angala?
I bet you could clone Slasher, or me 30 times raise them under strict lab conditions and they would not be indentical as both nature and nurture theory would have us expect. Pity we can't try it out but the ethics commities of the world get silly over such things (puts a real dampner on my mad scientist aspirations.)

Right off to dose myself with drugs
-Bio (mostly sane lab minion)
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 11:35
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Bio babe this thing about twins seperated at birth and having husbands the same name, having kids the same name, driving the same type and color car, prefering the same dick lengths, etc etc is pure crap of course. One only has to research such claims by twins to find out that nearly all of them have "engineered" these circumstances usualy for notability and a handsome payoff for the magazine exclusive.
Less than 1% of twins actualy have identical circumstances such as this which can be mathematicaly proven from probability and permutation statistics generating from genetic similaritys.

Dont believe everything you read in the Womans Weekly!
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 13:47
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wasn't reading it
one of my real life aquaintences actually, she was adopted and discovered that she was a twin so went looking.... the whole thing weirded her out big time no engineering involved.
"More things in heaven and earth..." my cynical friend
-Night night >hugs and kisses<
-Bio
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 15:01
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Angel

30 Slashers and 30 bios


[goes off to contemplate that, heads for the nearest pub]
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 15:42
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bio you are on the strong drugs aren;t you!
and you never share them with me
all you ever give me when i am sick is panadol (which i liked alot better when they had the ad with the pilot in it instead of the stupid surf livesaver they always show now)
so next time i am sick, which i am guessing will be anytime in like the next 22 days
i demand the good drugs!
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 16:00
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So maybe your real life acquaintance was one of the "less than 1%" Bio.
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 18:53
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Kermit 180,

I just mentioned it because Slash doesn't seem to be too fond of Communism, either, so I found it all the more surprising.


Slash,

what you said about you being my adopted brother is not wrong in any way. BUT: Just suppose, disregarding time and place, we had been exchanged at birth. I still think that I, raised in your environment, would bear more similarities in character (or even "soul"), specific abilities and deficiencies to my present "ME" than to the man you were at my age. Of course, you probably wouldn't be in Vietnam in that case, and you might even understand a bit more of what Davaar wrote in Emily's story, but these things don't say very much about what your "YOU" is.

So do you even believe that the male and the female brain is exactly the same? Think about that; it would mean that you could raise a boy to feel, think, and behave like a girl, and vice versa.

Anyway, it's just the old nature-vs-nurture debate we've already had a few weeks ago on Iceolareanic's "Why has society lost total respect for itself?" thread.

As for my question about never meeting you in chat, I think you've just answered it by your post in "How long is 270 seconds?". - If you've made all of those 2365 posts via THAT connection, I guess your phone bill could play the leading role in a good horror movie...
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 19:42
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Angel

Bio,

oh dear, you must be really ill, I haven't seen you on chat for almost four days... Get well soon!

Now that you've mentioned cats, I have to concede that there really ARE some arguments in favour of souls or at least some supernatural ongoings that we don't know much about. Many, many years ago I was fascinated by a story about a cat who, after being taking along on holiday (on an aircraft) by the owner, found back home after walking hundreds of kilometers and even crossing the inner-German "Iron Curtain" (I can't remember where I read that, but I must admit that it sounds like something out of Reader's Digest - another women's magazine...). But then, they probably have some sort of "navigation system" we are completely unaware of, just as we cannot imagine the way some animals get a clear picture of their surroundings by their sense of smell alone.

As for "added options when we upgrade after death": I hope they include the feature to disable the [img]-tag selectively for every single forum, so that I can at least use quotes, italics, bold, links, and lists for my defense speech on Judgement Day...

Oh, and I'm delighted to see you copy'n'pasting like good old ocb, including his "***" (the mark of the anti-Beast?) - after all, someone has to carry on...
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Old 19th Jul 2001, 22:36
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So then, I've come late to this discussion and you will have to forgive the undoubtedly large mail I'm about to type. Interesting stuff, this.

Like some others on this thread I too am often struck with wonderment with the world around me. Which sounds pretentious, but I’ll say more in a scientific sense – looking at the colours of evening clouds and wondering about the complex interaction between water droplets and diffuse light; looking at trees and grass and wondering at the chemical reactions with the atmosphere around them and the soil beneath them; Looking at a 747 mid-takeoff and thinking about the fan blades spinning and compressing air to loft several hundred tonnes of metal into the sky, aided by refined energy rich fuel formed from millions of long dead organisms. The world around me, and its – and my - place in the universe fascinates me.

The soul then? Well, I’m not into organised religion. Like many of you I feel it is a relic of a time when we didn’t have any answers. To humans, not knowing is just not viable. With nothing else to explain the world, religion is an obvious choice. It is, because it was made that way. In recent times we’ve learned an awful lot about our environment through scientific discovery, but it can’t explain everything. I don’t believe we will ever be able to explain human consciousness.

If we believe Slasher et al., then we are just a product of our surroundings and are equal to the sum of our physical parts.

If you were to recreate a plant, or a bacteria, from it’s constituent parts exactly as it originally existed, you would expect it to function, chemically and physically. If you were to do the same with a person – every chemical, every cell, even every electrical impulse across every synapse and neuron in the brain, do you think that creation would wake in the middle of the same thought that it’s template was having? If what you say is correct, then that is what would happen. Sorry, I can’t come close to believing that is true.

If this IS the case, then, if given a computer of infinite power, one would be able to predict the course of every human’s life - as in essence it would merely be a product of one long chemical/physical reaction and interaction with the world around it. If that sounds familiar, I think Douglas Adams touched on it in his books, however I hadn’t thought of that before I started this paragraph. I think that principle holds though. If we have no “soul” distinct from out physical presence, then we have no “free will” – we think we are in control of our destinies but in reality everything must be pre-ordained, and conscious thought is just illusionary.

Interesting, huh.

Those of you who think that death is a finality, stop and think about it. I mean really stop and think about it. What is it like? You will have no perspective, because you will have no consciousness. Everything will cease. The entire universe only exists from your perspective, that is all you have. Trying to imagine a universe without your consciousness leaves your brain feeling decidedly odd. It is like feeding a computer an impossible equation.

As I said, I am not a religious type. However I believe there has to be something else. Although I am a firm believer in Darwin, I think there must be some sort of higher purpose to evolution, for instance. I know this a little off-thread but I think it flows. The principle of “survival of the fittest” would surely start and stop at simple bacteria. Man cannot adapt as quickly, spread as widely across the planet or last as successfully as such simple organisms. Higher life has no merit if we are measured by such benchmarks. What is the purpose of thought? The only idea I have had is that unless intelligent beings evolve, there is very little chance of life spreading beyond its planet of origin. We do have that chance. But SURELY that cannot be an evolutionary concern at the basic natural level. Not without some other force in existence. There must be a different purpose for consciousness.

I’ve been giving this a lot of thought over the last few days – thanks Bio Warrior! - and that’s as close as I can come to explaining what I think. I do not believe in Religious answers, not in the traditional sense at least, and I do not believe that consciousness can ever be explained by science, deep believer in science though I am. Which leaves me in somewhat of a quandary.

Hope I bloody well sort this out before I die!
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Old 20th Jul 2001, 07:55
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Yeh ok Winst we will agree to disagree. But as far as male and female similaritys go for the purpose of my argument, we have things like estrogen and testosterone kicking in during puberty. This of course will cause dissimilar "YOUS" between the sexes, but will not affect cerebral maturity.

And yes the phone bill limits my time on the net.

Given your suggestion of exchanges at our birth, I wouldnt exactley be a Winston, and of course you wouldnt exactley be a Slash. Thered be genetic diferences of course. But the essence of "ME" would be completley diferent as would your "YOU". A diferent conscience and set of values perhaps? Getting back to the main topic, if supposedley Im born with an immortal soul (and where does it say in the bible I have an "immortal soul"?) then how can that be?
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