Older Wannabes
 

I have been training now for over a year at one of the main flight training schools. Over the year I have noticed that the industry is steadily improving in terms of jobs available for young ATPL holders. The airlines don´t seem to have any interest whatsoever in even considering the older pilots training at this school. It leads me to think why are these people 35 and over even considering competing against these younger people who are obviously in a far better postion to land these first jobs. I suppose the old saying of "can´t teach an old dog new tricks" comes into play when they select these people.

Any thoughts???

An interesting question, crashandburn.

I suspect there are several reasons for this. The market currently has more pilots than vacancies so the companies will take the "cream" off the top. Don't worry, when the industry turns round (and I believe it will looking at past performance and current projections for air travel), the companies will start reverting to the "bums on seat" policy - i.e. if you have a licence we'll employ you!

Please remember that all companies are now looking at nothing but the bottom line. If you are older you are perceived to have more baggage (who knows, you might even have a family!) and may reach the point of no return (loss of licence due medical etc) before those who are younger. It is also perceived that you might have more difficulty completing training and/or reaching the required standard for command etc. All of this is, I believe, quite shortsighted but that is how most of the hierachy running the companies see things.

However what is more ominous is that it is presumed that younger staff are more likely to "toe the party line" and not "rock the boat" when it comes to things like pay and conditions and, dare I use the term, "worker rights"! If this is one of your first jobs in the employment market and you have spent lots of money getting your licences then you don't want to risk putting yourself in a position where your job is on the line. Perhaps if you are older you might have paid off a fair bit of the mortgage and even have a partner/wife who also is an earner. Obviously this will all depend on personal circumstances but I am sure you get my drift.

Older staff are more difficult to programme to adopt the company culture and all the other crazy "mission statements" that they all love to spout about these days!

Please do not think I am not on your side - I am! But this is just the way it is!

I´m a regular reader of pprune but not a regular contributor to this forum but this topic has led me to voice opinion on this subject. I agree with CrashandBurn that the newly qualified older pilots ie 35 and above to tend to struggle enormously with trying to cope with the job if they are successful in getting one in the first place. I have witnessed this in recent years in this profession as they don´t seem to have either the co ordination or mental capacity to keep up with the job. It makes me wonder why they waste all their money training with so little chance of getting a job in the end. I would rather work with the younger, enthusiastic and more capable pilots.

Just my thoughts!

Older Wannabes
 

Michaelknight,

Interesting comments.

I got my first flying job in my mid forties. Had no problem with the ground school, flight training or subsequent OPC's/LPC's. I fly a twin turbo-prop without an auto-pilot where handling and instrument flying skills are required. Isn't that what flying is about?

Perhaps you are referring to the ability of the older wannabe to cope with flying by numbers or being able to turn the right knob at the right time. When it all goes horribly wrong you need the skills to be able to fly the plane.

You lot are talking a load of BULL.
I have just got my FIRST jet job at the ripe old age of 35, and I did not get it because they felt sorry for me.
How many of you are flying heavy metal?
I see ageism is still strong.

Well done michealknight for that sweeping generalisation and load of old bull****.

How you or anyone can make such a statement applying to one entire section of the population is some sort is "ism" alright. Moronism perhaps?

I'm getting the impression that michaelknight and others are perhaps a little afraid of the competition presented by the 35+ year old wannabe.

If it's true that older pilots "struggle enormously" with the demands of a new flying job, then: -

1. Why isn't this picked up during their selection?
2. Why do they not appear to "struggle enormously" in completing their CPL/IR flying training and ground studies?

In my own experience of completing the CPL/IR to licence issue: -
during the flying training, the older pilots performed no worse or no better on average than those in their teens or twenties. However, for the ground studies and written examinations, the older pilots in my course were on average better than the younger pilots. This was reflected in the examination results.

The older pilots seemed more prepared to put the work in, to fully understand a subject, rather than do the minumum necessary to get a pass mark.

They take the cream off the top first ?????
Since when did being young make you "the cream" ?

There will be as many useless 21 year old fATPL holders out there as there will be 40 year old ones. Equally there will be a few 21 and 40 y.o hot shots. You either have it or you don't.

As for not touching the older ones because they may have baggage like a family, last time I looked that was called discrimination akin to not employing a woman because she may get pregnant.

As has been said in other threads, there are pro's and cons on both age groups.

No I am not 21 or 40 - just somewhere in between :E :ok:

message for crashandburn.

I fully sympathise with you mate ... I am in the 35 - 40 bracket and as with a lot of others .. i qualified just the wrong side of 9/11.

What i didnt do was bury my head between my legs and put myself out to graze ... i aint ready for the scrap heap just yet.

I took my instructor rating and have not been out of flying since the day i qualified. I am now 1000 hours better off ... ok its only SEP but what the hell Im still flying and having fun .

The market is turning around and there will be jet jobs out there for the older wannabes like you and i .

Good luck mate and hope to see u in the pointy end soon.:ok:

What makes anybody think that there aren't hundreds of younger wannabes struggling to get that first job?

Companies have 'profiles' that their hopefuls must fit. They run selection tests to find those best matched. The best and most enlightened companies have a basic minimum with plenty of tollerance available in the system so that they don't end up with everyone the same as that has been proved not to be the ideal (why do you think nature has such a wide diversity?)

As far as age profiles go, once again, and especially in a large employer it is undesireable to take on everyone of the same age bracket because at some point they will all retire together! Many of the more senior airlines have had this problem in the past and are going through it now (BA, Britannia etc.) and this has lead to a wider 'chunk' of age brackets to be looked at during selection. I know it's against the law to descriminate in any way, but it's not too hard for an employer to wriggle out of any accusations, what I am saying is that several are actively trying to mix up their demographic age profile.

Of course it is harder to get that first break the older you are, but you'll probably find it's just as hard when really young. Then again, it's really hard when you're right in the middle bracket because you're in there with so many others!

I think the most important thing is to have something that makes you stand out from the crowd that makes the employer think, wow, he's intersting, let's put him in the pile to interview. If you're older than many then stand out for having done more than them and relate it to the job you are applying for. What employers love is experience that can be related to their operation, even if it's from another field, and a good grasp and understanding of how you can apply it helps make up the gap.......

Good luck, both young and old.

PP

You're totally right

It´s not surprising the older wannabes are trying to defend themselves, why would an airline want to employ someone who can give only half the time a younger pilot has to offer and coming from people I know in one of the "main" flight training colleges the older crowd do struggle.
Also, thank you DcQuire for proving me right, maybe you should take spelling lessons before you learn to fly. Michael is not spelt "Micheal"

Happy job hunting old boys!!

michaelknight
Show me a company that will give 30-40 years of work in aviation then I would agree with you, but for the moment you are talking garbage.

Waggon rut

Seconded.

Splat

Michael.

I am not sure if you are just deliberately stirring the pooh, but something to consider is "demographics"

No I am not 35 yet, I have a fair way to go, but I do think you ought to have a greater appreciation of your chosen subject matter before you make inflammatory remarks.

Remember that all on here are more than capable of spelling "arrogant ar5ehole."

Older hires are not going to earn a full pension - that can make them VERY appealing these days (and more so in the future IMHO).

michaelknight,

Not sure how me mispellin your name proves you right on any point actually (why did you then misspell mine and who the f*ck cares about spelling on an internet bulletin board anyway). But maybe I should just call you a childish little prat instead.

On the learning to fly side well now let me see. First 2 phases of my integrated fATPL flying completed within syllabus time here in Jerez (eh that´s the first 118 hours with all single engine flying tests completed on time by the way), first set of ATPL exams completed first time and hopefully just about to polish off the second set this week. Next week the CPL. All at the ripe old age of 41. Now I know that age practically qualifies me as wheel chair bound in your little world. But no not here in a real life actual flying school with real life planes, instructors and students young and old. Oh yes and lots and lots of past pupils, young and old, who do now actually fly those big shiney things you see when mummy and daddy bring you to the airport.

If you are (just another feckin) pprune **** stirrer, you´ll have to do a lot better than that me laddie. Attacking spelling is about as weak as it gets around here. Better still why not try a subject you actually know something about. Oh but hang on you know people (or is it one bloke called Dave you met down the pub) who work in a flying school. Well well done son but I´m surrounded by about 50 professionals here who wouldn´t agree with your little chum.

Experience counts
 

Michael Knight,

Fortunately there are many people in the industry who don't think like you. I recently chatted to a Senior BA Captain on a flight who was involved with BA pilot selection. Happily he indicated that BA do not view age as a selection criteria at all up to 49yrs. He also expressed a view that an older candidate was often able to demonstrate greater maturity and bring more management experience onto the flight-deck, which is extremely important with all the emphasis on being a member of the team.

With crew retirement age likely to rise to 60, I see myself as a 34 year old wannabe who has the potential to work for 25 years as an airline pilot with the benefit to the airline of having funded my own training. Oh and 25 years in any company is plenty of time to reach the left hand seat and achieve a command.

Frankly I think I'd make a better pilot now than I would have done at 25 simply because I have so much experience of managing difficult situations/people and I'm certain there are more than a few airlines who recognise that.

Desk pilot

I seem to be getting very negative replies in this forum. I am basing these opinions from my experience working in the airlines as a pilot and have in the past been directly involved in the recruiting process myself. Over the years I have noticed a pattern of younger low hour pilots landing the jobs ahead of the older candidates. I am just letting the older wannabes know how it has been in the past and I can´t see it changing in the near future.

D McQuire I have obviously hit a raw nerve with you. You come across as being an arrogant individual and I can tell you for a fact that this attitude will lessen your chances of getting a job even more than they are now. You call me a "**** stirrer" but at 41 you haven´t displayed too much maturity in your opinions in this forum. Where do you realisticly see yourself getting an airline job in the next couple of years?

Sorry, Michele Knight but a minor, almost insignificant spelling error crept in to your last post. Realisticly (sic) your credibility has disappeared down the poo hole. NOW NOB OFF!

Michael

I always try to give the balanced view from my experiences. I am not a Wannabe any more, I have a job. I was not a 'young gun' when I started training. What I try to point out is what airlines seem to want, not what bigoted individuals think. I agree that ageism does exist, like it or not, but, I think if we are talking about 200hrs TT looking for the first job at 38 then I think you will have a harder time than someone aged 22 with the same hours. This is what you see at the big flying schools. What the older guy has to do is make up for the lack of flying during his younger years with what he has done during that time. For instance, if he has had an alternative career, or run his own business then that is valuable experience. Pick out the relevant bits and relate it to being an F/O with said airline. The older guy should have much better experience to draw on when answering the interview questions, giving fuller answers from when he has been in the situation that the interviewer is searching for.

Getting a good mix of age and experience is becoming a factor for many airlines, mainly the bigger ones. For a small operation they may well tend to take the same sort of recruit every time, ie always young with low experience as for them this 'mix' is not as important if they are only taking on a couple at a time. Consider this though; if 'x' airline needs 350 pilots over the next 5 years what is the point of taking them all on from a similar age bracket? If this is the way they recruit every time then they will have the same number retiring every time at some stage later down the line. This assumes that the pilots stay with the company; an airline that size would tend to be a career airline. Look at BA and Britannia, they have this sort of problem. Better to recruit a large diversity of age groups which means you don't then get the 'bulges' in the retirement bubble, and heaven forbid that the retirement bulge coinsides with the top of an upturn when there aren't too many 'suitable' candidates for interview........

Plenty of older guys get employed by airlines, I'm not just blowing smoke up the old you-know-where, it's a fact, as I am sure is the fact that these older guys don't tend to get their jobs via big flying school introductions (although I am sure that will have happened at some point too.) I think it is a plus point to be an older guy when approaching a turbo-prop outfit, especially if you would be happy to sit in the left seat for them and not disappear to squEasy at the first opportunity.

So there you have it, a bit of balance on the subject. It's not easy, whatever your age, it may be just a little harder if you're old and have no experience.

Good luck

PP

Edited to add;
I think that says more about your 'strange' generalised opinion than it does about guys over the age of 35. I have successfully converted through 4 sets of SOPs and had 5 OPCs in the last 12 months, all at or after the age of 35. First airline job at 34. Not one training captain felt he needed to mention any struggling, lack of co-ordination (with a hyphen I think you will find is correct) or mental capacity.

I think your point about it's harder when older is correct, just don't be quite so bigoted if you don't want people to get off their high horses in future.

PP

I agree with PP on his comments when I started flying there were better pilots than me both older and younger. There has always been many companies who liked to recruit older pilots as they were more likely to stay in the company and put in a good few years LH seat where many younger pilots would only see it as a stepping stone.

It is probably easiest to teach students to fly at 17 but airlines aren't that keen as they lack other important traits which they will gain with age.

Well now michaelknight,

You are beginning to sound a bit irate yourself. In response to your comment that I "haven´t displayed too much maturity" the words "pot, kettle and black" automatically sprang to mind. But then I figured no, let´s see if one can be positive here. I´ve been reading pprune for a couple of years now and I can give you a few top tips:
1. Don´t attack the spelling of a hostile poster as a defence. It never works. This isn´t a newspaper and it generally only makes things worse.
2. Dont try to use your real or imagined status in the world of aviation as a weapon to silence or belittle me or any one else. We have all seen it before hundreds of times. For every 50 blokes on this forum claiming to be the skipper of a big jet about 5 are for real.
3. Avoid generalisations about one section of the community and their intelligence and/or flying ability. You complain about getting negative replies on this forum. What the hell did you expect? If you had made such an idiotic statement about any other section of the community (let´s just mention the words race, religion and nationality) you might found yourself dealing with a lot more than just the pee-taking or abuse you have received on this forum.
4. Avoid assessing contributors suitability for life as an airline pilot solely based on their contributions here. You know nothing of my or anyone else´s personality, past life, successes or failures. So you are in no position to judge.

Pilot Pete,

Well done for staying diplomatic with this chump. I don´t know where you get the patience. If WWW ever hangs up his boots as moderator around here, you would get my vote. You have the right angle on this age thing. It was a huge decision for me to come down here to Jerez and age was a difficult factor in that. But I didn´t come all this way on a whim. I knew from the time I took that decision that it wasn´t going to be easy when I get to the end of my studies here. But hopefully like you, I will find that first instructor/air-taxi/freight job and hopefully that will lead to what I want. I´m probably not going to end up flying trans-atlantic in a 777 for BA but that´s not what I expected in the first place. My real ambition is to fly turbo-props. If it gets better than that, then I won´t complain.

Well that´s my tuppence worth. Now back to my ATPL studies and see if I can get this old decrepit brain going again to keep my 90% average intact.

michaelknight


How's Kit these days, must be a ****** to get a good service with all those flashing LED's!

Listen, you've obviously got a weed up your a@*e about 'older pilots', personally the only criteria I have when working with someone is whether they know their stuff and are a decent fellow. I think you need to chill out a little and take a wider view.

I'm 36, doing my PPL with a view to getting a CPL, I know a couple of older guys who've done it, without any problem (in terms of mental capacity etc) apart from financial and marital, but they had the maturity and tenacity to overcome those obstacles.

I work in IT, an industry where I constantly have to learn new technologies to remain marketable, I'm sure that there are a number of professions where the same is valid, are you suggesting immediate retirement for the 'oldies' who in your opinion 'can't cut it'. Or are you suggesting that once over 35, you shouldn't be able to change career to something more demanding? Really!

I'm afraid to say that your attitude is misguided to say the least, however as you mature, I'm sure your viewpoint will become increasingly aligned with the 'oldsters' as you strive to protect your job from the 'young guns'

See you at the Post Office on pension day!


;)

To Mr D McQuire, averages in the classroom mean ****** all in the cockpit. You seem to rant on about your groundschool results but never about your flying skills. You said that you "probably won´t be flying 777 for BA". I would change that to definately won´t be flying 777 for BA or any other airline.

Whenever you graduate send me an email and I´m sure I can recommend a few retirement homes for you!!

Deary me,

I know of someone who got his first commercial job in a RHS on a 737 at the young age of 52.

Care to comment on that? I suspect that his maturity made up for his slightly slower motor skills.

Enough said

Splat

My suggestion to everyone here is ignore michaelknight. Either he's a wind up merchant or he's got a serious bee in his bonnet about "older" wannabes. In either case leave well alone!

Seem to remember reading that Danny got his first commercial job in his mid/late 30s.

I think a point that is worth mentioning is the groundschool at the more mature age. If you have been out of education, or have not had to constantly learn new stuff during your career you WILL find it harder to remember the groundschool subject matter.

I ahd exactly that problem. I understood everything but could not remember it. I spoke to a friend of a friend who is a neuro surgeon and he explained the reason why. The neural connections in the brain which act as the 'wires' to the storage (memory) break down without use, ie if you have been out of education for a long time. When you go back to learning for the first time after several years absence it takes several months for these connections to be re-made, ie to use the full capacity of your memory which has been ticking over only using a small fraction for 'x' number of years. Sure enough, after 3 or 4 months I started to remember the material much better and after 6 months, when I sat the exams the vast majority was there.

So I hate to admit it, but there maybe some truth in Michaelknight's not too diplomatically put initial posting. However, the problem is not insuperable and just another hurdle put in front of the (sometimes more determined) older Wannabe.

PP

Hi all,

With regards to age, if you are 40 and have say 4500 hrs flying turboprops, then will you still find it difficult to get a jet job with the likes of BMI/Virgin/Britannia, or are we just talking about if you are recently qualified at say 40 with 250 hrs...

Cheers....

P1 Forever

I can only speak from my experience, but I do not think you would be disadvantaged with regards Britannia, but, and this is the big but, if you have 4500hrs flying turbo-props at that age the question that springs to mind is "why has it taken you so long to apply for jet jobs, aren't you ambitious enough?"

That would be what I would ask if I were interviewing. Get a good answer lined up to explain why would be my advice. Remember you are up against an incredible amount of competition for the few jobs on offer. It's not good enough to convince yourself that you fit the bill, you have to convince them, who may not view you as desireable as you may think you are. Assuming you have 3000hrs on a turbo-prop after say instructing to 1500hrs that means you have spent somewhere in the region of 4 to 5 years flying turbo-props. 5 years ago with turbo-prop experience you (not you particularly) could have got a jet job. So it begs the inevitable question.

However, as far as age commensurate with experience goes you would not be in too bad a position. It's all common sense really and a case of doing the homework about the company that you want to work for. For instance, when I joined jmc I was at their 'upper' desireable age limit due to their age demograph; they already had a bulge in pilots who were in the age bracket just above 35, hence they were avoiding getting any more in that bracket.

So it comes down to doing your research and targetting the airlines where you have a chance of employment. No airline will ever turn round to you at application stage and tell you that you don't fit their age profile, because they can't, it's against the law.

Best of luck with it, do your homework guys!

PP

Thanks a million for the post Pilot Pete!!!

I now understand the age thing....and I hope everyone else does too

Cheers.

Just to add a little more as regards the age thing.

When I applied for my first airline job as 'no spring chicken' I drew upon my life experiences to build my interview 'portfolio'.

For instance, when asked if I had ever had to deal with a stressful situation I had two pretty good examples;

1. Engine fire over Glasgow doing the Flying Eye in a C310.

2. Rescuing an old granny from a burning house and getting a civilian medal for it, along with letters of commendation from the Commissioner of the Met and the Chief Fire Officer of the LFB.

Sorry if it comes across as blowing my own trumpet, but that's what you have to do in the interview and this sort of experience came about due to my having lived a little. More chance of me having done that kind of thing than a 22 year old (don't get angry all you 20 somethings, a lot of you got degrees which I haven't!)................

So you see it's all about building up your experience and applying it to the flying job if you were/are a late starter. That applies equally to the old question of academic qualifications as I have alluded to. If you weren't a shining acedamic star, for whatever reason, you have to show them what you have done of value instead. Also, compiling your cv correctly cannot be overstressed, you have to give them the 'taster' to want to hear more and that applies equally whatever the age.

Get thinking guys, well before you even think about applying for a job.

PP

Pilot Pete....excellent information.

It's clear to me that it's not as black and white as how old you are or what level of experience you have although they both play a part. It's more down to the bigger picture of you as a person, how you have progressed through life, how you have applied yourself, the steps and planning you have made to achieve your ultimate goal. How you handle situations and how you react when faced with problems and people. Attitude and outlook on life in general has to be in there somewhere too.

Then onto the applications, targeting specific airlines after researching each one, and learning as much as you can about the company, not just that they have 7x757 and a 767 on the books but when and how they started and how they developed, how they operate now and what they expect from their staff (all staff not just pilots). The structure and their policy's on customer care are other examples. These are just some and there will be many more areas to look into. To me these things show you are interested in THE COMPANY not just the shiny jet parked on the apron.

I may be way off the mark but this is how I see things.

regards.

NHF

I think you are right NHF.

It's more about what you can offer the company these days and I don't just mean you can fly a great ILS in limits (every candidate should be able to do that) it's about an appreciation of the teamwork required to get the job done, the management of the operation (don't forget they are employing you as a potential commander, not just as an F/O), cost awareness and coping with stress and flexibility and so much more. All you have to do is get the interview, that's the hard bit, once you've got it all your preparation should have it 'in the bag'. Why do so many pilots leave themselves ill prepared yet expect to get the job? The competition is serious, you have to do your homework.

PP

edited to add that many (especially the bigger) airlines are employing the person that fits the culture rather than the type rating; if you have the right attitude and the ability they will give you the type rating, what they don't want is a type rating with an attitude problem! And before everyone bleats, yes I know there are plenty of exceptions to that generalisation, but low hours guys are still getting jobs with the likes of easy/ Brits etc etc.

>I ahd exactly that problem. I understood everything but could not remember it. I spoke to a friend of a friend who is a neuro surgeon and he explained the reason why. The neural connections in the brain which act as the 'wires' to the storage (memory) break down without use, ie if you have been out of education for a long time. When you go back to learning for the first time after several years absence it takes several months for these connections to be re-made, ie to use the full capacity of your memory which has been ticking over only using a small fraction for 'x' number of years. Sure enough, after 3 or 4 months I started to remember the material much better and after 6 months, when I sat the exams the vast majority was there.<

Pilot Pete, What you say is absolutely true. However, what you and others may not be aware of is that accelerated learning techniques ("whole brain exercises") can speed this process up dramatically. It doesn't have to take 6 months!

Dear Mr Knight,

Following your recent inquiry regarding my training I must ask what precisely it is you would like to know about my flying skills. I might remind you of an earlier posting where I mentioned I have passed all flying tests so far (oh yes on time, within sylllabus hours blah, blah, blah etc.. but lets not bore you with the details as one's attention span may be limited) and am indeed moving on to the CPL stage of the course next week.

As you may or may not be aware the course here in Jerez is an integrated course which means we fly and study pretty much morning noon and night. So when one is in the thick of the old JAR exam's one is somewhat pre-occupied with them. You should try them. Quite an education. Good for the soul as they say. Not a pre-requisite for flying Flight Sim 2002 but unfortunately a rather large one for flying real aircraft and getting paid for it.

So then looking forward to getting back to the flying. I just hope I can find that old zimmer frame of mine and somehow wedge myself back into the cockpit. It does get so difficult to remember where I left the blasted thing last.

Looking forward to hearing from you in the near future. :D :D :D
Now what does this button do....

Firefly

Interesting, not heard of the accelerated learning techniques before, but the theory of brain exercise certainly sounds feasible. I guess it's a case of how long you've been a mushroom (brain in dormant mode!) as to how long it will take to get it back up to speed. My six month figure was because that's how long all my grounschool course took, as I mentioned by the end it was certainly up to speed, but I had been running as a background task for several years!:p

PP

Who's business is it anyway at what age an individual decides to become a pilot ? It's their money and their dream ! For those of you who are in your thirties reading this thread, I hope it just spurs you on to complete your qualifications and obtain that elusive first job. Let the airlines decide if they want you or not ! I got my first commercial job at the ripe old age of 32, over the hill to learn, don't think so !!!!!

Cheers and Beers

P