Is the hiring boom over?
 

2016-2018 - plenty for low hour guys
2019 - slowed down
2020 - Cockpits full?

What are your thoughts?

Peewee

There’s still quite a few opportunities for low hour pilots - RYR recently reopened recruitment, Jet2 pilot apprenticeship & Flybe to name a few.

Let s hope it will pick up again 🤞

I know people (low hours) who within the past 6 months have been hired at:

Jet2
Titan
Flybe
Stobart
Loganair
FlyWales
Dragonfly

So yes absolutely there are still opportunities out there for low hour pilots, however I'd say that the numbers are obviously a lot lower than previous.

EasyJet are recruiting 1000 new pilots over the next 5 years through CAE.

the Integrated students have preference over modular guys applying thru CAE

Sorry just to be clear are you saying the MPL students who are doing the integrated course have preference or the ATPL white tail students have preference over someone who is on a modular course?

There used to be a pecking order. The most lucrative students get the most attention, and down the ladder it goes.

The MPL students were the top (self-sponsored MPL with the orange airline). They got the lion’s share of attention and resources. It was no holds barred to get these people finished on time.

This was followed by the fully-sponsored Middle-Eastern cadets (the Middle Eastern airlines know their cadets struggle with training, so they give very generous time frames to complete their training).

Then followed by the “tagged” ATPL cadets (on a self-funded ATPL course but have passed an airline selection prior to starting, have a conditional job offer, and wear an airline lanyard).

Then the ordinary self-sponsored integrated ATPL students. During the flying stage it was very common for you to be removed from scheduled flights at a day’s notice, and your flight given to one of the above “higher priority” students. The same with losing your instructor, aircraft, etc, to the above folk. Horrifically frustrating when you’re already months behind schedule as it is and you keep getting leapfrogged.

The bottom of the bottom are the modulars. Even the self-sponsored integrated ATPL lot get it better than them. But, they pay the least money, so that’s what it’s all about.

But for the jobs at the end, a few times a year airlines will recruit through the school. This can be as many as 6 in a year, to as little as none. The orange airline used to come in around twice per year to recruit (and take a dozen or so self-sponsored folk who weren’t already tagged). These tend to be schemes with expensive self-sponsored type ratings (£38k for EZY, etc), as the respective school also provides and sells you the type rating.

But yes, the integrated students got first dibs, and if they couldn’t get enough interest for the particular selection then they’d invited the modulars. (And even if you do apply to and get a job outside of they school’s schemes and off your own back, the school will still take credit and use you as a statistic and advertise that X amount of students went to Y airline.

Back to topic, yes, it is a bit ropey for new pilots looking for first jobs at the moment. Thomas Cook was a big hit to the UK market, as 600 experienced Airbus drivers were suddenly in it. Ryanair closing recruitment late summer didn’t help either (4 out of 5 of my flight school mates went to Ryanair). It goes in peaks and troughs, and I would say it’s half way down one. EZY will always recruit, but they do it primarily through the big schools where it’s lucrative to all involved. Jet2, TUI and BA tend to want experience (barring apprentice scheme). Wizz and Lauda will need base moves to Europe. flyBe and Eastern are recruiting, but as far as I know Loganair aren’t.

Loganair are recruiting at the moment. They have an assessment day in Dundee this week, and have made offers to a handful of NTR low hour people last month. Some of whom were modular guys.

Hope this keeps up, I've just started ATPLs and Loganair is my dream job. Guessing they are hiring for their new ATRs?

Do you know the noticed period ? I've sent an email on monday and received the confirmation on tuesday by HR and told me it will be reviewed in due course, do you know how much time it could be? as they won't contact me if is unsuccessfull
Thanks!

All the low cost are recruiting, big focus on their MPL/academy programs. It might get more difficult for old chaps for sure, due the vast number of fresh grads coming through. Commander recruitment might slow down thought, most airlines are focusing to upgrade their SFOs than external placements, that's the trend.
Well, RYR will need a bunch when the max comes back, i would say the same will be with Norwegian and other with orders in line. WZZ is having their expansion to Abu Dhabi, so there you go a bunch more.

DEC recruitment is always a controversial issue, as it often leapfrog’s SFOs and FOs who’ve paid their dues and been in the firm longer. It does cause a lot of grief and in-fighting. EZY and RYR tend to be quite similar; cadets fill the right seat, who eventually move to the left seat, and DECs plug the gaps. I agree that as an FO you have much more flexibility in the job market (or even more so a Captain willing to go RHS).

It’s good Loganair are recruiting again. They definitely stopped at a point because they made a load of Embraer pilots redundant late last year. Take Loganair over flyBe any day of the week, with the state they’re in.

i doubt it, especially with Norwegian, as base closures of both short and long haul have caused a surplus of pilots , even if the MAX returns.

From Rumours and News

https://www.businessinsider.com/iata...20-2?r=US&IR=T

I don't think the virus outbreak is going to affect Europe a lot unless it becomes as critical as in Asia. The main problems in Europe are caused by fuel price and the MAX grounding. Once the MAX returns to service I expect airlines will need pilots to operate flights on intra-European and transatlantic routes.
Norwegian cash flow issues seem to have come to a stop after their restructuring but they need the MAX and RR issues to be fixed for good.

IMVHO even if the outbreak doesn’t arrive in Europe the european pilot market could still be effected by this...

A lot will depend on how quickly the Chinese market recovers it’s appetite for expat pilots....

Time will tell....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...navirus-fears/

Considering the above, I don't think it is a great idea to start commercial training now. It just goes to show how important it is to have a Plan B when trying to start a flying career since the outlook for the industry can change so quickly.

Hopefully, the virus will be contained and/or some sort of medication will be able to limit the effect it has, though it looks like Europe is going to be affected more than previously thought.

“Non paywall” analysis here:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...d-with-reality

If there is a “dip” in demand for air travel (and it’s getting harder to believe there won’t be, even in Europe) then hopefully it will be short lived.

FlyBe going bust (which seems to be looking increasingly likely) would put another 600 pilots just on the UK market. The coffin would be nailed shut in the UK for finding an airline job, probably for the next couple of years.

If this Coronavirus gets much worse, it comes with it a downturn in air travel, and then the possibility of airlines closing recruitment, redundancies, or even the weaker airlines being unable to keep heads above water and going under. That’s another few hundred experienced guys on the EU market.

This is worse case scenario, and if it were to happen I imagine the effect would be much more mild. Still, I reckon the flyBe issue will the biggest factor in determining the amount of jobs going. Especially how it could be another 600 pilots on the market just months after Thomas Cook’s 600.

I wouldn’t put anyone off beginning their training at the moment (although it’s a bit dodgy now, the market can be a different kettle of fish in 2 years). But, as mentioned by someone else, a plan B is vital. A job you can pay your way with in the event of not finding an airline job, or whilst looking for one. Simply going straight from school into fight training is a big risk, with no skills to fall back on. Definitely not worth the risk remortgaging your parent’s house over.

Good advice. Worth noting that these collapses (Thomas Cook, maybe Flybe) are not as much as a threat to new cadets as they first seem. Reason being is that firstly cadets are cheaper than employing experienced pilots. More importantly though is that a lot of these collapses result in other airlines getting hold of new routes and so their capacity will increase albeit not immediately.

Short term it's testing times in the industry - medium to long term - who knows - proceed with caution i suppose.

Fair point. I know it was mentioned somewhere that EZY didn’t take a single ex Thomas Cook pilot. Yet, the cadet schemes were still going strong. The cadet schemes are lucrative for all involved, so they will keep ticking over. Still, another 600 pilots on the market is no good for anyone (perhaps except airlines who use it as an excuse to lower Ts&Cs).

My old airline went bust within hours. Not one
person saw it coming. It was mental. So believe me mate, anything can happen, at any time. There’s
no such thing as “unbelievable” in this game.

What do BALPA do when an airline goes bankrupt, do they try and negotiate with other airlines to help the redundant pilots get taken on elsewhere?

As for cadets being prioritised, it's in the interest of the airlines for the pilot market to be as flooded as possible, as has been seen in the US, when there is a shortage, the T&Cs on offer can go through the roof. In my view, it's up to BALPA and indeed, other unions abroad, to try and put a stop or some sort of limit on the seemingly endless supply being run through the flying schools.

At a Pprune wannabe seminar many years ago, an airline DFO gave a presentation about the job market for low-hours pilots.

He started by drawing a graph of pilots jobs over time, and noted the way the job market tends to build steadily for several years, before an ‘event’ precipitates a cliff-edge collapse. His observation was that the market tends to follow a (roughly) 10 year cycle, with the bottom falling out in 1990 (1st Gulf War), 2001 (9/11 terrorist attacks) and 2008 (the financial crash).

It’s now 2020 . . .

I would give some thought to that, particularly if I was considering starting an integrated course.

Rumours of cadets on various UK airline schemes being delayed start dates. I’d be very wary of starting any training course now. Things are rapidly slowing and may well reverse if airlines go bust. If you are in training now do all you can to suspend/slow down your training. This industry can get very ugly very quick.

Well the European market has been rubbish for about 12 years now anyway since about 2008 so Its not like the US market which is booming and could go completely bust. The last few years in Europe have been okay but nothing spectacular when compared to the rest of the world, especially North America and Asia. I have been flying in the US and Europe and European aviation can only be described as depressing when comparing the 2 markets

The COV-19 virus certainly has not helped things but unless we have another 2008 GFC where the markets were decimated I dont think it will get too bad here. It may slow down but in 2009/10/11/12/13 it came to a grinding halt.

If you really want to be a pilot then it could be a good time in Europe because it is a bit slow and if the glory days of 2003-2007/8 ever return it will only be in a few years from now.

What boom ? Salaries are still low for FO, paid like a secretary to be an airline pilot , everyone should leave the industry

God I hope you are right... Starting in April in Madrid my ATPL

I don't suppose many of the heavily delayed white-tail trainees on certain integrated courses will be best pleased by this. Had their training been run to schedule, they'd have qualified during a much better time for airline recruitment.

Everybody starting a MPL or ATPL at this moment with borrowed money (loan) from the bank is MAD !!!! Sorry to say but you need to be realistic.

Mad? A training takes on average 2 years. Everything could happen in 2 years. We might either have a massive recession or another hiring boom in 2 years. It is unpredictable.

But I strongly advise to go modular and keep your actual job.

Wise words. I will stop working for my ATPL theoryy period, aprox 10 months, and resume working after that while I finish my flight training and flight examinations. ... after that, I guess it will be just applying to anything open at the time and maintaining my licence as current as possible by my own means.

BJ, it's just my opinion, I realize many young people don't know how much 125 k is and how difficult it is to save let alone pay back with interest..

I used mad as in using your parent's house as a security on a 125 k loan. Even in good times is something mad to do, imagine now with hundreds of experienced pilots on the market....

But, If you have it on the account and want to take the risk ... do it by all means...

I absolutely have to get a loan... 70K to be exact (not accounting for TR expenses)... but It's all or nothing. I don't want to die without saying I tried... There is always time to NOT pay the bank, in the case of a worst worst case scenario.

I am working already. I am just going to suggest what I did: modular and spend less than half of the amount you mention.

With today’s appalling news re Flybe...maybe the UK boom is over.

Loganair are not recruiting, neither is Eastern. Hunkering down time.

That's perhaps a bit overstated! IThe real game is when exactly to train if you're determined to do it.

I graduated uni in July 2008 straight into an frankly awful recession. I had planned to go and do flight training almost immediately, initially with the RAF but that dried up and then with CTC etc. It was obvious that it wasn't the time to do it so held off. I applied to CTC 2 years later, so mid summer 2010 and got offered a course October 2010 and managed to get them to delay me until spring 2011 guessing that things might be better when I completed due to a further 6 months, also had a decent job by then that I could easily return to. My course all had a mini-panic for the double dip recession worries in 2011, but fortunately that all blew over.

Finished it all late 2012 and waited 3 weeks before easyJet took most of my course with a start date 3 days after the phone call! I did my command in 2018 in less than 5 years from joining.

I know I was lucky but I can't see how you couldn't call that a boom and call it 'rubbish' instead. We were the first course to graduate and be in jobs in less than 3 months since before the recession. That boom took nearly 5 years to hit after the preceding recession. Bottom line, beware at the moment. Gut feeling is that aviation is about to have a big readjustment.

Anyone in their right mind would go modular in this environment. If people stop training - great. That means there will at some point be a shortage again, it's just a matter of waiting it out. The safest thing is to keep your job, get a PPL, reassess your finances. Do some hour building and start your ATPLs. If you spread out it, that'll give you 4½ years from the first exam to ATPL expiry. You'll only have spent £20k and you'll have £20k left to spend on the CPL/IR, but only when you're more confident of the market.

why ? why ? why ?

Why dont you work a couple of years and save the money you need ? why put yourself in debt that will hunt you the rest of your life ??

just mad !

Less than 15K interests... 8 year loan, aprox 800-900 monthly, "the rest of my life" is a bit of an overstatement .... some people mortgage a house and 2 cars for well over 400k... I find that mad.... I guess I'm investing in my future. A future I want. Plus, I want to get started asap; turning 30 this year. Eventually if all goes right I'll earn more money than being and Engineer in Spain. Risk vs Reward seems OK to me, I guess someone with a bit of more financial apprehension could see it with other eyes.
The only problem I see really is that by the time I'm finished with flight school I don't land a job straight away... but I have my plan B financially speaking, so really it's just a matter of time.. That doesn't take away my that I will be incredibly annoyed with the fact that I'm not flying in an airline or elsewhere by the time I'm done training...it will, certainly, eat me up inside.

But overall, I will not deny that asking for a loan with this level of uncertainty does give me the chills.