Virtual Aviation & Titan Airways Cadet Scheme.
 

Cheers for the heads up!

Monday 21st to apply !

We still have to pay the interview stage 1 and MCC + flight and hotel etc. I guess we can't complain.

Happy to answer any questions you have about this programme.

Paying for an assessment.... And still people believe that there is a pilot shortage...

Thank you for your positive comments.

The exact number will be confirmed next month but we understand there will be around 6-8 cadet positions in this first intake.

There may well be a lot of applications, but the strength of your application is what will make the difference. Good luck!

We really appreciate your comment.

Unfortunately, the reality is that it costs a lot to run a selection process, usually much more than the contribution made by the candidate.

This programme is all about reducing the investment and risk for an individual between CPL ME/IR and getting to the right hand seat of a jet. That is why we have tried to keep the selection day fee as low as possible.

It does sound like an amazing opportunity for us low hours pilots. Can you still apply if you have an MCC+JOC already?

You certainly can.

Although we have designed this programme to allow CPL holders to apply to an airline and get a job offer BEFORE having to invest in MCC/JOC training, we do not wish to exclude people who may have already taken that step.

This text, pasted from the webpage, explains in more detail:

"This programme is designed to minimise personal risk by offering an opportunity for the highest-calibre cadets to secure airline employment at an earlier stage of training, before investing in MCC training. Pilots who have completed an MCC course previously are welcome to apply, but will still need to complete Phase 2. That's because overseeing your progress through Phase 2 is important in order for Titan Airways to verify your suitability for an airline-funded Type Rating."

Hope that helps.

This is another amazing opportunity showing that the airline industry is moving away from the Ryanair Model and acknowledging the effort modular pilots put in to getting where they are at the end of training.

I think this along with the BACF Modular pathway is the ideal route these days for us wannabe pilots but i cant seem to wonder why VA have chosen not to use their "partner" Kura Aviation in this venture with them running what seems to be a carbon copy course together for BACF.

Either this is underhand on behalf of VA copying the model set up by Kura for BACF or ties have been severed and Kura are going in a different direction? Something is happening behind the scenes at the 2 companies which had looked a positive partnership for me getting the best of both world, now i am in 2 minds. Any help?

I know this course is offer before you start but i still need to do an MCC/JOC anyway so i still have a decision to make now.

This looks like an excellent opportunity. Is there any information on:
- Initial salary
- Roster
- Expected annual flying hours

I am sorry for the off topic comment. I never blamed a guy who paid for an assessment. I also did it on the past.

Happily for airlines, too many low hours pilots starving for a job is a reality nowdays and we must get used on it.

Could you please tell me more about nepotism in Greek airlines? You speak like you know sth from inside. Do you think for examble that they dont have the safety standars who have the italians or english ones?

We are compiling a list of questions which have not been answered on the website, and will try to get clarification for you on these specific points. If you could submit a message with these questions and your contact details, using the form on the contact page our our website, that would be helpful. Many thanks.

We weren't involved with the BACF Modular Pathway as it was before we started working with Kura in August 2016.

If you decide to fund your own MCC/JOC training, the Kura BESTPILOT programme is an excellent option for those who can pass the selection, and they recently celebrated their 100th airline placement. As you know, we provide the AJT (MCC/JOC) training for Kura's BESTPILOT students, so maybe we will get to meet you if you choose that route.

I truly applaud Virtual Aviation for taking this path and providing the opportunity to modular pilots. This really is a great opportunity and helps open doors for modular cadets wishing to get into the right seat. Much more realistic and truly agree that this is a much more affordable option to the other large schools in the UK or Spain where you end up spending more then GBP100k to get into the right seat.

Keep up the great efforts Virtual Aviation...the industry does need to be brought back to the realistic level again.

@virtualaviation ,

Are we going to apply via virtual aviation website or Titan careers online recruit website ?

+1

Things are changing a bit in the industry. A couple of years ago the "big 3" had a virtual monopoly but we've seen TCX, BA City and now Titan going out of there way to attract modular pilots recently - all credit to them. Even Ryanair might be offering bonded type ratings through their APC program soon.

If you're not on a pre-selected integrated scheme or a MPL personally I'm not sure what value you're getting for 100k bar the "opportunity" to pay another 20k to join Easyjet or similar?

Just wish EASA would follow the FAA trend and introduce an hours requirement; I will agree there may not be that much relevance of a lot of day VFR hour building to Airline operations but from what I can see in the US the hours requirement has certainly improved terms and conditions for those that do achieve the required hours. Due to the 1500 hour rule some Airlines in the US are now paying $5000 dollar joining fees to new FOs, it isn't the FOs paying the best part of 5k plus for a JOC course.

An hours requirement would put CTC, FTE and Oxford out of business over night. It would also deter those that are only interesting in becoming Airline pilots as opposed to those which have a true interest for flying.

As for the Titan Scheme, it is good in that it is open to Modular students; if you are modular then the additional price of the MCC/JOC still means you are spending considerably less than the integrated candidates.

But at the end of the day I suspect VA are making a reasonable profit on those MCC/JOC courses.

Yep, EASA should definitely introduce a rule that requires anyone flying a class A jet first spends 4 years towing gliders from the back of a Pawnee as that would definitely improve safety and Ts&Cs :ugh:

The reason it improved Ts&Cs in the States is because no one wants to become a pilot anymore because of how much of a ball ache it is to get a licence when there are so many other careers as rewarding without having to wait until turning 30 to earn a living wage. All very well getting a $5,000 joining bonus but personally I'm not sure wasting 4 years of my life is worth $5k...

VariablePitch:

There is no shortage of FAA CPL / IR holders in the USA; while it is true the pilot profession being seen as less favourable has reduced the number undertaking training that in itself has not created any shortage.

The FAA after the Colgan incident introduced a rule that anyone flying Part 25 Aircraft had to hold 1500 hours total time. While there is a lot of debate of the logic of this hour requirement; there is a now a shortage of CPL/IR holders with the requisite 1500 hours to fly as FOs on Part 25 aircraft. This has increased the salaries and terms and conditions for Regional FOs. So before making sarky comments suggest you best check your facts. Likewise before JAA took over the CAA system had a 700 hour requirement for the equivalent of modular route at the time.

Interestingly in those days one of the criteria to join BA connect (pre-incarnation of BA Citiflyer) was to hold 1000 hours and there was no need pay any third party 10K for a JOC.

So yes an hours requirement may not necessarily improve safety (a debateable point) it would see T and C improve markedly. If CTC/L3 cadets had to hour build in some way to get a 1000 hours before they could undertake a part 25 type rating then L3 would really struggle to flog overpriced 100,000K+ courses.

Anyway the point is back to the thread, in EASA land people are paying 7 to 10 K for overpriced MCC/JOC courses in hope of a 75 to 90% chance of getting a job; where as in FAA land some airlines are paying the FOs to come and work for them. The VA website makes it clear that you can still get dropped after JOC/MCC. I know of one or two who did the Kura scheme and didn't get placed.

My apologies, I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that we arbitrarily strip the flying privileges of thousands of licence holders away and restrict them to flying washing machines for three years because it would enhance safety through gaining experience. You are in fact suggesting we do this not for safety but purely to leverage higher salaries from airline bosses. Whilst we're it at, bus drivers must spend three years driving taxis and doctors must spend three years working as porters as well right? Do you really, honestly think this is something the CAA would do or should even consider???

I take it you're currently over 1500 hours and job seeking? I can't see any other possibly motivation for this arguement.

At the risk of getting back on topic.

Sounds like an interesting scheme.

What happens if someone has already completed the VA MCC and JOC, are they expected to pay for another course if they pass through the Phase 1 selection process?

Are all graduates of the VA MCC and JOC course in full time flying employment?

If not why don’t VA simply recommend some of their better graduates of the MCC and JOC course to Titan, who could review their training records and assess them maybe with a basic sim test and interview before offering them the type rating?

A more cynical person might suggest that the above course of action would mean that VA make no money out of the selection process and subsequent MCC and JOC courses.

If you do not already have an MCC or JOC and you were going to do the VA course anyway then it’s a no brainer, go for it. If you already have MCC and JOC then there’s the risk of stumping up for a qualification that you already have and not making the grade required during training.

Good luck to those that choose to go ahead and apply.

some very good points here! maybe VA could answer some of the questions above?

Nonsense what you suggest. VP.

How should one get 1500 hrs? There is a huge difference in Aviation Business in Europe comparing to USA.

In USA is the General Aviation business a lot bigger. Crop Dusting, Aireal , Observation Flying, Biz Jet Aviation, Instructor jobs. Air Taxi. Not much of that is existing in EU.
If we do the same here, then it would take a painstaking 5-10 yrs to obtain those 1500 hrs.
Do not forget about the loan we have to pay back. That is impossible with wages in these kind of businesses.

Even for many skydive dropping jobs you need like 500 hrs TT.

I understand your point of creating leverage, but I think it wont work.

Also in one blow no more CTC, CAE? Awesome, less FI jobs then. You are creating a bigger problem there.
In USA many students become CFI in the ATO where they did their training. But if you blow away the flight schools then no more jobs he ;) .

Exactly, that's the exact point I made :}

Hi P40

With respect, I disagree. At the moment the supply of low hours pilots far exceeds the demand, this keeps T and C low as desperate candidates work for peanuts.

As demand is not going to increase enough to rebalance supply, the only way to rebalance supply and demand is to reduce the supply and that means fewer training schools, it might seem ruthless but that's how it is.

The simple solution to the loan subject is to save hard before starting training and maybe work during training to keep some money coming in.

So you're suggesting saving up €100,000.- before starting your training? :D

Flying training does not have to cost that much, personally I did not even start training until I was certain that I had enough saved to pay for all training and support myself during training plus a 15% contingency. That meant being patient, getting off my backside and denying myself luxuries.

Perhaps saving 50% of the cost of training and keeping at least part time employment during training would be prudent and show a degree of due diligence.

I suppose in an ideal world there would be loans available that would not be repaid until the candidate is working and earning over £25k pa (like UK university education loans), unfortunately the real world is not an ideal place.

The ready loans available to people in the past have no doubt help fuel the imbalance between supply and demand, perhaps if loans were less readily available then a better balance could be struck.

May I ask what you think it has to cost?
I did an integrated course, which might not be the cheapest, but is probably the most efficient.
I guess you did a modular course if you paid a lot less than what i did, but as I have seen so far modular courses are not accepted at a lot of airlines and I'd think they would take more time to complete.

Also if you want to save up the total cost before starting that means you need another education, in The Netherlands this would normally be around 4 years for a Bachelor. If you're quick I'd guess your 22 or 23 when completing that. Then saving up for flight training and doing the flight training itself meaning somewhere in your late twenties/around thirties before starting to apply somewhere. I would still prefer the integrated/financed route...

In my opinion everyone who wants to do pilot training should do before starting that a study which might function as a backup.

So from 18/19 till 22/23 you go to college or uni. If only from then when getting a job you start to save for 5-10 years you are almost even a bit late with starting aviation career. Then around 30 finished. Then fly 5-10 years this well paid GA stuff and gather slowly hrs means you are around 40 when having 1500 hrs. Let alone the fact that AGAIN there are almost no SEP MEP Biz Jet jobs or FI jobs to gather those hours. As mentioned before. Even for skydive dropping here in Germany they require 500hrs TT.

It took me like 4 years to finally land a skydive dropping job where I am very happy with. This job I do next to my daily job because you cannot life from that money.

My question remains then, HOW TO GET EXPERIENCED WHEN NOT GETTING A CHANCE TO OBTAIN EXPERIENCE?

I do agree that going straight from school to 320 or 737 is not the best transition. Better first some small Aviation, working up to small TP, bigger TP then to Jet, but as said before. Those jobs are extremely rare here in EU.

I also agree that trainings in for instance CAE or a CTC are heavily overpriced. Especially those MCC JOC's.

Back when I started I did Integrated training for 45K euros. TR 737 300-900 plus base and NG Difference Course plus hotel for 16K euros. ( I chose to do TR because the MCC JOC's offered by Kura, CTC are also around 10K. You can say there, that there is a good chance you will get a job at Easy, BACF etc. But still it is a lot of money. Keeping my rating current costs almost same as keeping MEP IR current, but MEP is pretty much useless here in EU because again read above not many jobs like that existent ). But if it was on me, I would have loved to do the road from SEP/MEP, TP to Jet, but investing in a TP rating wasnt much a plan here. ONLY when there would be a job.

I suppose my total training cost was about 50% to 60% of the integrated course, if an individual chooses to do the full time big bucks integrated route then that's their choice and if they get well paid employment with an airline before they have to start paying back the loan then the choice has paid off for them.

However there are plenty of people (integrated and modular) who do get a big loan to fund training and cannot find work after completing the course and the loan company want their money so they either have to find any job that pays enough to service the loan or they lose either their property or (even worse) their parents property that has been put up as security against defaulting on the loan.

My point is that self funding training is a massive gamble with your (or the loan company) money as the stake, and you should never gamble what you cannot afford to lose.

At least if you're spending your own money you know that a loan company is not going to come after you when you qualify and your credit rating is not going to get hammered if you cannot pay back the loan. Personally I cannot imagine the stress of committing to a huge loan and not knowing whether or not I would be able to find work and pay off the loan on completion of the course.

The paradox is that pilots are supposed to be risk adverse but in order to get qualified, many are taking the biggest and riskiest gamble of their lives.

Totally agree on this, I have not yet started my plan b, but I might next year or the year after. I'm pretty sure to be able to do something I like to do with a good salary, but I'm still hoping to live my dream.

I think if I started with this I might have never started flight training, I am happy that I did start with it as plan A.

Marketing Ploy?
 

Can you please confirm then how many candidates you will accept onto phase 2 of the course knowing that you have roughly 6-8 cadet positions?

I'm absolutely not being critical, just curious, but I expect some will be a little nervous in that you could pass everyone through phase 1 that applied, just for 100's of pilots to cough up for the MCC-JOC and only 6-8 coming away with a job. Could be a good marketing strategy for VA in my opinion and "selling" you an MCC-JOC with the prospect of a practically non-existent job. Surely if a candidate makes it to phase 2 there should be some security of employment after forking out for the MCC-JOC?

I am interested by the reply as it does scares me too. Budget is short !

Apologies for the thread drift but I have a few responses to give.

P40, no one suggested the hours requirement should be set as high as 1500, as said in the UK CAA pre-JAA days self improvers (the equivalent of modular had to obtain 700 hours to obtain a full CPL), so somewhere between 700 -1500. Secondly P40 I see your location is Germany, apologies I know little of the German GA scene, but I would say while the GA scene in the UK is not as big as the US, I would say there is still moderate enough GA scene here in the UK to support an hours build requirement. There is in-fact quite a demand for instructors at the moment. Secondly if OAA and CTC went under the subsequent demand for modular training would soak up the instructor work force. OAA and CTC are not the only employers of instructors, there multitude of small flying schools across the country (in the UK) are probably where I would the majority of instructors work anyway. CTC and OAA wouldn't go under they would revise the business model. You are right we will never see such a thing in Europe because the large ATOs have too much influence and money talks.


So none of your counter arguments hold as far as the UK is concerned. No I am not suggesting this from self interest, airline flying doesn't interest me it is repetitious and exhausting.

Variable Pitch: Actually there is a lot of benefit in all industries of experiencing the working field from a lower stand point, so yes a trainee Doctor who has spent some time as a porter would have a better understanding of the workings of the Health service. Look at Train drivers, the unions have artificially protected the conditions hence Train Driver salaries have remained high. So while the FAA 1500 rule was introduced in the interest of safety

Mlambin, Ghandou, it is a gamble if you can't afford to lose 7k then don't do it. 7k would be better spent on something that you know will gain you something useful.

Sorry but if the scheme really had the candidates interest at core intent, the price of the JOC and MCC should have been enveloped into the subsequent training bond.

So while it may represent a good opportunity the underlying tone is revenue generation for a third party.

It wasn't! It was a knee-jerk reaction by a bunch of politicians so that they (US Sentate/Congress) would appear to the general public to seem to be doing something after the Colgan crash - despite both pilots involved having well in excess of 1500 hours.

I think it might be worth having another read of the terms.

There's also a Q&A video on our Facebook page, with a member of Titan management answering viewers questions.

Nobody will need to speculatively book an MCC/JOC.

The 6-8 cadets selected in this intake will know they have been chosen, and will have a job offer from Titan BEFORE undertaking MCC/JOC and then TR.

The whole purpose of this scheme is to start a move towards less upfront risk on the part of the individual.

Thanks for your comment - and for getting things back on topic ;)

This programme is intended for pilots without an MCC qualification.

For now at least, a fair percentage of those applying will have an MCC qualification already. That’s because schemes like this are still the exception rather than the norm, so most pilots will still go straight from CPL/IR to an MCC/JOC course.

Unfortunately there’s no way around that until schemes like this - hopefully - become more commonplace.

When you ask why Titan don’t simply take graduates of our MCC/JOC course, this is actually how most airlines currently hire cadet pilots - and it’s exactly what we want to change.

Pilots currently invest their own money into an MCC/JOC course - with us or with any other provider - without any guarantee of job at the end. The best will secure a job quickly, but the vast majority of those will still have to cough up £30K+ for a type rating if they want to accept that job.

An obvious exception to this Jet2’s excellent Pilot Apprentice Programme.

For an airline to invest in paying upfront for a type rating and base training, just looking at an individual’s training record and conducting a sim assessment doesn’t give them much security.

In this case, the airline taking control of the selection process at an earlier earlier stage than normal and then overseeing the subsequent comprehensive MCC/JOC training gives them the certainty needed to assume the risk in funding the type rating and base training.

We are hopeful that more airlines will start hiring in this way, and believe it’s in the interest of both the airline and the individual. If this programme is successful, it’s our goal that airlines will start to fund the MCC/JOC training as well as the type rating.

If pilots who have already been through our MCC/JOC (or any other provider’s) want to apply, they are welcome, but they will still need to go through every stage, just a like an applicant without an MCC. Those are the rules of engagement. The airline overseeing this MCC/JOC and having final Skills Test sign-off is key to them funding the TR. This still offers a much lower ‘cost to right hand seat’ than paying £30K+ to an airline for their type rating.

We've just been catching up with some responses.

If you have any specific questions please don't hesitate to ask - in this forum, or in a private message, or by email.

There's also a 30-min Q&A video on our Facebook page, with a member of Titan management answering questions put to him.

Thanks for clearing this all up.

What stuck out was that it says it's a "conditional" job offer before the MCC-JOC. This set off an alarm bell because I was thinking you could offer 100's of candidates conditional offers and get them all to pay for the course. However I now see that the "conditional" part is if things go horribly wrong on the MCC-JOC then of course you would not be expected to give that candidate a job at the end.

I hope this is a success in changing how airlines recruit in the future and applaud you for doing things differently. :ok: