Civil or Military?
 

I am getting close to the end of an ab-initio traing scheme and am unsure of my next step. i am 21 and have a tremedous desire to fly in the RAF but have heard so many bad things about this that i am not so sure, can any current RAF ex or whoever give me some advice and opinions.... please!
ta very much

If your desire to fly in the RAF is so "tremedous" then you should go for it.
At the end of the day it is horses for courses. Remember that in the RAF you are an officer first and pilot second (assuming you get selected). Therefore if you can't see yourself as an officer, try the airlines. No experience in the civil arena myself but the money is gonna be better but is the flying going to be as much fun??

Decisions, decisions!!

Choose wisely my friend.

Definitly Definitly apply for the RAF. They can be considered to be ONE company. If they turn you down, you can then try all the others, i.e. comercial flying. The RAF selection procedure, is 3-4 days at OASC. They cover all costs of train/accomodation/food/medical etc. It costs nothing to apply, and gives you 3 days of really good fun, around people who have the same interests. You will really enjoy the selection, and also gain a valuable experience for future interviews for commercial sponsorship. You have absolutly nothing to lose, and everything to gain by applying. Go for it, and do it now, because if you are turned down at the first attempt, you'll be young enough in a years time to have another go (If you wish). I've just been turned down for pilot (yesterday), in a years time I'll be to old, except for Nav. I'm still gutted, but are now looking into starting on the ATPL exams.

ickle

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If God had meant man to fly, He would have given him more money.

I second aerostude's comments. Mate, just go and do what you want and what you love to do. I don't know what 'bad' things you say you hear about with the RAF but nothing an no job is ever perfect. If you ask me the worst thing about it is passing the RAF selection process for pilots. If you have a passion for flying for the RAF, go for it with all you've got cause you'll need that determination. In the future you can always move over to commercial aviation.

All the best.

Not trying to start an argument:
How much thought did/do you guys put into the very real possibility that you will go to war and kill people?
This is a question that really intrigues me as most people joining the RAF seem only to talk about 'the fun' etc...

What precisely is your ab-initio training scheme? The RAF don't mind you having a PPL but they are not too keen to re-train pilots who have been trained professionally by someone else, it takes too long to find out how good or bad you are.

The issue of whether you have thought about the consequences of going to war will come up fairly early in the interview process. If you haven't thought it through carefully, you probably won't pass the interview. Simple as that.
As for the relative merits of civil versus RAF, they are very different careers and not directly comparable. As someone mentioned earlier, in the RAF your first responsibility is as an officer. That means you will have many tasks that would never fall to an airline pilot. Partly as a result, you will fly less than your airline colleagues. That flying will be regularly more challenging and much more risky than the airline job, and there will be few occasions when you could call the flying repetetive or dull - even in large multis. You will also, in the early years of your career, earn more than most of your civil colleagues. Yes, there will be some who make the RHS of a 737 with EZ by 26 years of age on £48k, but most will be on much, much less. As it happens, I took an £11k cut in pay when I left the RAF for Virgin!
There will be many here who can put the other side of the argument better than I, but I hope this is food for thought.

[This message has been edited by scroggs (edited 06 March 2001).]

well that has certainely given me some things to think about.
The 'bad things' were, too much secondary duty, not enough flying, in particular.
money or time away from home are irrelevant to me. i don't want to get to an age where i tink 'i wish i'd done that'
i think i'm gonna have to go for it, 'nothing to lose everything to gain'.
thanks all
'live the dream'

scroggs,

I am also currently facing a similar decision to eagerbeaver and have a question for you - given the same choice again, would you follow the route you have or go for another??

Cheers,

Cuban_8

All I will say is go for the RAF. The way you get looked after is second to none (roast meals every day as well as a cheese board and fruit juice for breakfast everyday)

The theory is that you are an officer first and pilot second. Well thats bollocks, thats the official line. True you may go to war, big deal, the ones most at risk are the fighter pilots.

If you want a good secure career the RAF is the best option. They pay for all your training (if you don't make the grade don't worry as any idiot can get a ppl. And its all paid for(you won't pay a penny))

The RAF are total poofs but if I had my time again I would definately sign up.

Out of interest do any PJI's come on here, or for that matter any RAF load masters (underated personal)

If you ask anyone who has done the RAF, they will probably say, "It was fun while I was in, but I'm glad I'm out now." This can be attributed mainly to family circumstances changing at the end of 16 years service, so if you are prepared to stay for 16 years in this knowledge, then go for it.

Read what I wrote on this thread below:

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/000638.html

Cuban 8
The reasons I left the RAF were a) that I'd done everything I could in the field I had specialised in (C130 tactical/air refuelling operations), and b) that I had two very young children who would still be in full time education when I was due to retire at age 55, so I needed to find someone to employ me to at least 60. That's easier to do at 40 than 55!!
The 22 years I had in the RAF were fantastic fun. I flew throughout that time, without a ground tour (averaged 35 hours for every month I was in - on everything from the Chipmunk to the Lightning), travelled throughout the world - often where and when the news was being made, flew in situations that would never be possible in civilian life, and had many opportunities, both leisure and work, that I would never have had in any other employment. I ended up as the RAF's C130 display pilot and senior AAR instructor, and was in the process of converting to the C130J as one of the 'core' instructors when I decided to leave.
Don't get me wrong, life at Virgin is excellent. But I wouldn't have missed the RAF for the world!
Does that help?

Naughty Boy

Good to see you have got your priorities right. It is amazing to hear how many people say "if I had my time again" assuming they could walk into the RAF, well fortunately there are measures in place to stop ar$e holes like you getting anywhere near an RAF aircraft.

Any way I wouldn't worry about the "official line" on officer first ... etc, you obviously have the officer qualities of a tw@t.

Or maybe your just a complete wind-up

aerostude, agreed and well said.

Like completing an ATPL, you do not just decide to do it, you dedicate your life to it. Tw@ts like Naughty Boy are demonstrating typical spitfulness towards something they were incapable of achieving.

Ickle

Agree with everything scroggs has said!
Despite the doom and gloom that you might read over on the mil pilots forum it is still a very good job.
All being well I'm going to be doing a seminar on the RAF at the GatBash. See some of you there?

Stopstart,

Any chance on a crash course?? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif I've got an interview on monday :+

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G-XX...finals and hopefully land!

I would, if you really mean what you say go full on for the RAF. I did and got a flying scholarship @ 16 and had 3 weeks learning to fly paid for by them and loved avery minute and hour. It has been one of my best experences to date (now 20 with CAA frozen ATPL\IR) through school and A-levels I pushed to go back @ 18 for direct entrance. It was my main goal. I always wanted to fly and I thought the military was the only place. You get the best training, facilities, instructors. When ur there ur an officer. The life style is second to none and in civi street is hard to top for the first few years of working. It has changed recently and the old boys have become disalusioned by it for sure but it is only for the person as they take and first experince it for themselves. It may not b for u, but u will never know unless u go c!

In other words for God sakes while u have the chance to go see DO! If they said 2 me tommorow come back it was a mistake I'd pack 2nite...

To eagerbeaver and the others - GO FOR IT!

If you don't you will spend years doing the "I wonder.............." bit. It costs nothing at all to apply, even the selection process is good fun, and although the Officer training is 'kin hard work, and may seem pointless at the time it is:

a) still good fun and b) excellent training for life the universe and everything.

One thing you realise when you leave the military is how un-reliable most companies and organisations in civillian life are.

If you bomb out of the flying training (chop rates are quite high!) you can still apply for the civvies as I know plenty of people who have.

But, if you have any doubt at all about the idea of being sent into combat then forget it. There is plenty of risk in the military aviation world (especially the so called fast jet world) and UN/NATO work puts you in the sights of plenty of people who would love to take a shot at you - and there is the IRA to think about too.

However, if you think you can deal with that, give it a bash - what have you got to lose?

Plus you have to sign your life away for 16 years! The RAF do offer 10 year commissions -if you have a degree, but i'm not sure if they will allow you to fly fast jets if you have only signed up for 10 years!

It's fine if you like it, but alot of things can change in 16 years!

No: you can't do 10 years as a pilot: its 16, or 12 and a gratuity without pension.

Thought so! I bet if you signed up for only 12 years you might still only get to fly crappy aircraft- if any at all!! Just my opinion.

Who's going to fly the fast jets? The guys who have signed on for 16 or more years. Yes skill comes into it although by signing for more years you are also showing a larger commitment to the RAF!

How do salaries compare for a new recruit in the RAF and a new sponsored recruit in BA?

Tarmach, your opinion is so erroneous that it is worthless as advice to Eagerbeaver on these pages.
Don't try and second guess the training system and likely postings with respect to whether you're a short timer, (12 yrs with an option to leave after 8) or a lifer,(Permanent Commission or PC, 16 yrs reckonable service or 38th B'day whichever is latest). The simple fact of life these days is that if you are good enough to get thru' selection, IOT, and 3-4 yrs flying trg the RAF will send you wherever they think your talents will best serve the service. If you're able to cope with single seat fj then you'll go there regardless of your percieved commitment. They will aim to ammortize your £3-£4m trg costs ( get their value for money )in the 2-3 3yr tours left available to them.
In response to the original question and as someone with 16 yrs' service I'd advise EB (and anyone else) to go for it wholeheartedly. There have been various comments on this topic but the one that is most accurate is that you can go from fighters to a bus but never the other way round. Give it a go, get thru' and have the time of your professional and social life. Alternatively you could always just wonder 'what if'.
Someone also said earlier in this thread that 16 yrs is a long time and if you are 17/18 then I suppose so, but it seems like yesterday that I pitched up at Cranwell. Time flies when you're having a hoot.

Regards SP

Well said SP

Tarmach's opinions are either complete guess's (uneducated) or (s)he is taking the p!ss.
The length of commission has nothing to do with where you are "streamed".
The funniest suggestion was that a 12 yearist may only get to fly "crappy" aircraft "if any at all" - What complete bolox. An RAF pilot is streamed after EFT/IOT and the stream depends totally on ability/suitability.

Eagerbeaver, if you have been swayed by any of these comments then completely disregard them.

'stude

Do it!

I've just had 16 years as a RAF pilot and it's been a gas. I've done flying that Civilian pilots can only dream about, and the mates I've made and the times we've had have been second to none.

I am leaving at the end of a 16 year Permanent Comission, and there will be some regrets. My reasons for leaving are to get more stability and better renumeration. But I definately did the right thing.

[This message has been edited by Dan Winterland (edited 18 March 2001).]

N: what I meant was there are now only permanent commissions, with an option to leave at 12 with a gratuity in place of a pension. If you are stupid enough to say you are going to PVR (ie get out earlier) then you won't be put on bad aircraft: you'll be out on the street beacuse the RAF will not waste the time and money on you. Short service commissions for pilots ARE NOT NOW GIVEN.

Seriously give it a go: if you are unsure, go to a UAS or get experience through a good liason officer who will arrange a day at a base for you. If the organistion is not for you, all well and fine, but be honest with people, or you'll have no respect from your colleagues.

Streaming is based on ability for role, and depending also on what vacancies there are at the time. Later aircraft allocation too is based on the same thing.

Yes, you could be a civilian pilot without doing the RAF and it is not IMHO boring, just different, and you could fly Pitts/Yaks in your spare time, but give yourself the chance to experience what you could do in the RAF, so that you won't regrat decisions to reject the military route.

bob: similar, just BA goes skyward more rapidly!

RAF career = varied, lots of fun, lots of fantastic similarly-minded colleagues, lots of time away (depending on aircraft type, etc), some risk of death, reasonable pay.

Commercial career = not so varied, fun (at times), some similarly minded colleagues (but you might only meet up with them every few months!), more time at home (depending on airline!), very little risk of death, much better pay (& discounted travel?).

If age & circumstances permit, go RAF first, then commercial later. If you want the money, then the RAF just can't compete. Good luck for whichever one you go for - if it's the RAF, look at http://www.timc.clara.net/raf.htm
for OASC tips for when you go!

To the lads and lasses making a decision about future careers, read the threads on other forums to see what some of your prospective work collegues might be like.

Personally, I have just arrived at my OCU after about 3 years of training and a ten month stint in a UAS. What a ride! The training is seriously tough work at times, but those trips that go well just print a smile on your face! You don't get to put training bombs down onto a range from 250' and 420kts from a hawk, solo, on a BA cadetship! But, then again, you don't have Orderly Officer duties over a weekend either. For a young bloke, the lifestyle is brilliant. Problems you may want to think about are long distance relationships and trouble getting time off. One day you could be hanging in your straps in a jet upside down over Wales trying to shoot your mate down as a sidewinder growls in your ear! Life in the RAF rocks and not enough people shout about it.

Good luck in your decision ladies and gents

Military av wannabe
 

Has anyone been to the Nav AIB?

Yes.But just a shade over 9 years ago.E mail me direct if you think I might be able to answer whatever it is you need.Failing that try the Mil forum and see if anyone there can help you. :D

Military/Air Force Training
 

In the aftermath of September 11th is the military going to be the only way one can get sponsorship and continue to fly.

On a related point as mentioned elsewhere - what is going to happen to people who are massively in debt - no job, no prospects, and no money - worse than that - massive debts!!!!

1) No
2) Many will persevere and eventually get a flying job somehow. Whether it will pay enough to pay off the debt is another question. Others will leave flying and pay the debt off from a ground-based job. Someone will win the lottery and never have to worry about debt again.

The military offers the ultimate in flying, and is open only to those who show particularly strong aptitude and ability, who are willing to devote the best years of their life to a service. To view it as a 'port of last call' is entirely incorrect, and the merest sniff of such an attitude would prevent anyone passing the selection procedure.

[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: Pub User ]

If you view the military as a quick backdoor to get or continue your licences because other routes have dried up then you are sadly mistaken. I understand the situation at the moment but if you walk into the recruiting office (or flying training) with that attitude you will be out on your ear. However... if you are considering the military as a flying career then it is second to none with some amazing opportunities and experiences available. Try it you might like it!!

TOTALLY AGREE PUB AS A SPROG STARTING OUT IN MY FLYING CAREER IN THE MILITARY I FIND IT QUITE OFFENSIVE THAT PEOPLE WOULD VIEW THE MILITARY AS A "LAST CHANCE SALOON". HOWEVER I DO HAVE THE GREATEST OF SYMPATHY FOR YOU AND OTHERS IN THIS DIFFICULT SITUATION :)

RIPBulldog, please don't shout. It's very rude and unnecessary.
You are quite right, however, in that the services can not be the choice of last resort for the Wannabe. Any individual with such an attitude would, I hope, never get as far as an interview. I suspect, though, that the original post was simply suggesting that the military were the only employers currently offering paid-for flying training, which is probably correct.
As an ex-RAF pilot with 22 years service and as a current airline pilot, I'd be less jingoistic about who offers the ultimate flying experience. Horses for courses, people. One man's Harrier dreamshot is another's sick bag from hell!

Thank you Scroggs

and who said the crabs had no manners or common sense? not me mate.

Port of last call?? Would you prefer flying a 747 straight and level for 6 hours and looking at weather / radio babble or screaming along at 600mph in a Tornadoe at 200ft??? How could you!

as a former Military truckie and Fast Jet sim instructor - stuff the fast jets, the fun is on the truckie fleet. Who else sends you somewhere nice at taxpayers expense and even provides the women (cabin crew) for the party?

The only people who think fast jets are fun are 1) those who have never done it and 2) those doing it but too ashamed to admit that the lifestyle stinks.

However, whatever the fleet the military can throw a bloody good party. Officers have the best balls!

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

We seem to have gone off on a tangent here - what other way except the military, in the short term, is going to be sponsoring or training pilots for none existent jobs?

Obviously, long term, there will be requirements as always, together with opportunities for people to fill them. What about now???

No one has even attempted to address the situation regarding the debts people will have as well as no opportunity to work.

Is this a topic that is toohot to handle?