OK no pilot. Then what??
 

Long time reader and member here, but i dont post often. I read the wannabes forums often and the majority of the posts by prospective pilots regarding the job market are quite depresssing. My question is this, i am 32 :{ and all my working life i was saving money in order to begin flight training debt free, which i thought was the sensible option. Now after reading thousand posts, even that i have the money, ive noticed
a. Im in the wrong side of the 30s, the ideal pilot should be young with money for the likes of RYR and EZY
b. In Europe there is no general aviation or airlines that would hire people like me
Quite frankly i always wanted to be a pilot and i was commited to saving money in order to do it. I dont want to be rich, i just dreamed of a career change. Now i am quite lost since i dont have a target. I want to make a career change (im in the armed forces,not UK) but i dont think that beeing a pilot is sensible option now. If there are any other people in the same boat as me please share your thoughts.
PS I hope i posted in the proper section of the forum

Go for it. 32 is nothing. I got my cpl at 25 but didn't start flying professionally until 35. 4 years later have 3500 hours and command on regional turboprop and a blast along the way flying bush and seaplanes. Don't regret it a bit and future is bright.

Enthusiasm and dedication will go.a long way. Start with that and you can't go wrong. Try doing your training in the states and do your instructor rating. They then may hire you under student visa then. Great fun and you won't be one of the crowd

gave up a respectable career at 29, did all my training and got a job with RYR at nearly 31...things can certainly work your way but you know the deal - work hard and be in the right place at the right time. No one says it will be easy but at least try - you have to be in it to win it as they say, or you could be sitting in your armchair at 60 thinking 'what if'...

personally, i regret starting this whole thing. but after spending a lot of lot of cash, im kinda stuck. no way forward, and hell no turning back...

I'm turning 27 next month, approaching 1000TT with nearly 300h on a regional TP, decent salary, repaying my loan and saving some money every month.
If I had to do it all over again, I would turn my back to avation without even thinking about it. And things are just going to get worse...

dudubrdx, why do you say this?

Tacitus, you're only guaranteed to live once so do what you think will make you happy.

Military flying is one thing, civil quite another. In the latter it seems to me that the heavier the equipment and the more you're paid, the less fulfilling the professional side of the job is. I now fly four engine long haul all round the world, a job many would envy, I hate it. Previously I flew much more interesting shaul haul jet and turboprop. Before that - great navy jet and chopper flying - but it was a young man's lifestyle.

I now have over 10,000 hours, I'm glad to have done what I have, but I'm actively aiming to retire from this racket at 55. If you're really thinking about airline flying I advise you stay in a real job, hopefully with a real career structure, and fly for fun. A modern airline "career" is more of a trap than a career. To be fair you'd be in this for twenty fewer years than me and may never get jaded.

But, as I say, do what you think will make you happy - you're not too old.

Flying is no longer the career people imagine. The relentless downward pressure on T&Cs mean that for many now it is years before they start making inroads into their mountain of debt caused by training loans. Please do all you can to find out the truth as life as a newly minted FO with a fATPL can be poorly paid, uncertain, stressful and hard. And remember how ever bad it is now the chances are that by the time you are qualified and looking for your first job the T&Cs will be even worse. Do not listen to the propaganda from the training organisations but instead talk to career advisors at BALPA/IALPA.

Thank you all for your kind inputs.
I have been reading the forum for a long time and ive noticed the dramatic changes in the profession, towards the worst. Personally i think that long are the days where a self improver or a person who saved hard in order to be a pilot could brake into an airline. Too sad. A part of me does not want to accept this, as i still want to train as a pilot but sometimes reality kicks in and its really hard. I truly hope the terms for this profession change for the better over the years and one day help my child be a pilot in a much better enviroment.

The majority of people here who aren't happy with their chosen career obviously haven't set their expectations correctly before starting out.

If you want to earn a lot of money, then get into investment banking or start a tech company which will be one of a million in being successful.

The fact is that most careers have their good points and bad points and it is up to you to decide what is important to you in life. If it is money, status, a stable routine or changing the world, then flying may not be for you.

99.99999% of people out there are in jobs that they either do not have passion for or didn't plan on doing when they were a kid. They drifted along in life and somehow fell into the job because it was easy.... and then stayed in it because that was easy to. They have no passion.

I've worked in 12 countries throughout the world from an investment banker on Wall Street to teaching scuba in Greece - and for me flying is the best job of all. I work on average 4 days a week and only 5 hours on those days. The rest of the time belongs to me to run my own business, write a book, design my dream house or whatever tickles my fancy. People dream of that as a retirement. And I get paid to fly, my passion as a kid. What could beat that?

I'd also suggest that if you have a backup career you can make good money at, then that is the way to go. I think that one of the reasons why are a lot of pilots are unhappy (aside from being prima donnas) is that they don't have anything to fall back on, they are stuck and feel ultimately helpless. I'd also suggest to them, that is what most of the working world feels like and to stop feeling like a victim.

Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you.

"Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you"

Very true ATR42Guy

"Determine why you want to fly, and base your decision around that. If it is money, or status, then maybe flying isn't for you"
Thats true. As a matter of fact i would love any flying job that comes with a livable salary. I dont want to be rich or fly immediatly 737s. I thought of making instucting a career but, correct me if im wrong, the instuctor salarys are minimal. I thought also of turboprops but as a matter of fact after reading various posts i concluded that there are jobs only for people who spend a fortune to the likes of CTC. If someone has a diferent perspective backed up by facts i would happily take it into account.
I said this because i always wanted to fly as a job, it was my target, but now i think that this target cant support my life and its really depressing.

Whilst the perception is that pilots these days are badly paid and worked hard, the reality seems to be lagging somewhat behind the popular view.

In the UK pilots are still in one of the highest paid professions in the country (we were 4th in a survey done by HMRC, looking at job titles and the numbers on P60s). Hardly a claim for poverty.

Despite being on the summer schedule, I am on a stretch of 6 days off, have 3 days work mid week coming up, 4 hours work in each (duty hours, not flight hours) and then have 3 days off again next weekend. Ask all my mates who work in The City about long hours.

Whilst it appears to be difficult to get in to the profession, I flew with an FO freshly out of Oxford - all his classmates have jobs!

It might not be what it used to be, but it's still a great deal.

Artie,

It's all fine and dandy upstairs if you're a senior and have been in the industry 8+ years. However, this isn't about pay. It's all linked to your second comment below:

I can assure you that whilst Mr 21 yo Middle-class Alpha Male from Oxford is getting all the jobs, hundreds of qualified 30-45 year old guys are getting overlooked because they have the Modular badge or have a little experience, or are a little more mature (with the added baggage/complexity of family life). These Oxford/CTC guys are cheaper for the airlines to hire, far less hassle and being in major debt they think not twice about the first deal that is laid out on the table.

For guys who couldn't afford Oxford as a flight school, life is not that rosy.

Superpilot - Well said, especially in your second comment. This is the crux of the problem and for me, trying to decide which road to go down is a hard one!

You can either; go the Modular route, spend the same amount of money and get no where trying to find an airline job. Or try to go the ab initio route with OAA, CTC etc and you will have priority over all these other guys trying to get an airline job.

Sounds an easy decision but if you don't have the funding and you really want to get started, go the Modular route. In my view, it's a more fun way to get there but you will need a lot of luck, help and be in the right place at the right time.

I myself, am leaning to go the Modular route. The FTO I am looking at charges students £25k plus for the CPL/IR and have links with airlines and every student who went there now has a flying job. I'm going to give it a shot and well, hope for the best but plan for the worst if it doesn't work out.

Superpilot:

WELL SAID THAT MAN ! I could'nt agree more :-) I am a modular student doing my ATPL's, and i couldnt agree more with you.

I am a firm beleiver that there are jobs out there for everybody...in fact, if there isnt a job, create one ! :-) i am going to advertise the sh@t out of m qualifications when i qualify :-)

That was a brilliant reply superpilot, straight to the crux of the issue !!!

Certainly wasn't my intention to turn this in to yet another dull Modular v Integrated "discussion".

I was merely responding to the OP who said that he has read pprune and come to the conclusion that he is too old to find work and that T&Cs are sufficiently rubbish to give up on aviation as a career.

Neither are true. Pilots have been telling the new intake that things aren't quite what they used to be for generations. And as for taking seriously anything said on pprune....!

FWIW I have met a bucket load of recently hired low-hour modular types (a fair few were the "wrong" side of 40!). The trick seems to be personal connections, working in some other capacity for your target airline, getting your name and face known. Or in other words, how it used to be! Sit at home blaming CTC if you prefer, it won't get you very far though.

Honestly, i am glad that a man from the industry says something encouraging. And i welcome anyone to prove that im wrong. But i still think for someone willing to be involved in aviation PPRuNE is a good source.Some people here have indeed very insightful and useful advice.

LISTEN TO ATR42GUY AND ONLY TO ATR42GUY!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

Sooooooooooooooo many nowadays become pilots because of the uniform and "glamour"!! And guess what sooooooooooo many get disappointed

To be a pilot is a life style not a job.

Not fancy or glamoures and your wife/future wife will hate it!

Good luck!!

Your age will not be the problem. Let's just say you pay for the best best training there is and you ace every exam and flying test. And that you pay for an MCC course, type rating and line flying experience. Now what are you going to do? The dreamers who give you the advice " follow your dream" and other such guff are not being fair. There are virtually no jobs for inexperienced pilots and even fewer that pay money. Move in only when the dreamers move out.

Piltdown man>

Suggestion for you. Might be a bit hard, but here goes.

Think outside the box. Go to where the jobs are. Here in Africa there are tons of jobs for ambitious low time pilots. We have plenty of freshers from Europe who with the right attitude get work and leave with atp command time. Having worked in Asia the same thing is applicable. None I know went to oxford and most paid for themselves and more than a few are in their thirties or beyond.

As previously mentioned I also know plenty of pilots who trained and got instructor work in the states.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Get out more and stop expecting everything to be handed to you.

well said sicamore. Everyone finishes or befor they start expect to fly 777s and A380s to exotic locations all over the world. Like anyjob you start in the mail room and work up. The harder you work the doors will open. Everyone in this thread complaining about low pay and wives not being happy MAN UP. You do the job because you love to fly, not because you want the same image as Christiano Ronaldo. Stop blaming the world for your failiours.

Tacitus,
Thanks for starting this thread, it's cheering me up, or at least most of it is. I'm going down the same route as you, working in the oil industry just to get enough cash to fly. Currently half way through my ATPLs and been rejected to 3 pilot programs/aerial survey future pilot schemes. Still, I watch my big oil salaries come in and I do not regret for one second the amount that has come out for my training so far.
One day... Whether it is crop dusting in Sudan or surveying in Norwich, I will end up in that seat.
Don't give up. Seriously. I think that 20 years for now, you will regret it if you do.

A major reason for the current state of pilot conditions is that too many pilots confuse their job with their hobby and sell themselves short. They are usually either young and inexperienced or second career (relatively well off) pilots.

Long after the excitement has worn off it will remain your job.

By the way, I enjoy flying in my spare time and get paid for that too, but my real job is what many of you aspire to. I'm afraid that you will want to be well paid for that; not treated as cheap casual, whining labour by penny pinching and opportunistic management (whilst being subjected to regulation by fools).

Of course, several wise aviators did warn me when I started out, but like many of you, I knew better.

Anyway, the very best of luck to you all in navigating your careers through shark infested waters. Stay sharp.

The elephant in the room that no-one ever really discusses on these forums is this:

After 10, 15, 20 years or more sitting in a cockpit with the number of hairy moments and close calls preying more and more on ones ageing mind, quite a few pilots get utterly sick of the experience. They know they cannot change profession without a massive pay cut so they direct their anger towards T & C's, rather than admit they hate the job they once loved.

T & C's are dropping and all pilots should fight to improve them or at least stop them from getting worse, but the cruelest consequence of reduced pay and no benefits is that it stops pilots from taking early retirement if they desperately want to.

" How selfish these miserable burnt out old captains are ", I hear wannabes cry, but when you become them what will your escape plan be?

Of course not every pilot feels like this, but many do and many are surprised by the way their own psyche turns against what they do for a living. If you feel yourself yearning to be on the ground as soon as possible as you reach top of climb, then your days as a pilot are numbered. Think about your escape plan now, because the company package you're probably on won't help you.

My experience is:
I failed to enter military aviation 25 years ago, so I took other paths. Being fed up of everything else I now decided to go back to aviation and get a job in it. Aged 43, I'm obviously not looking to airliners but anything that keeps me near airplanes and flying and I really don't care of how much money I might earn.

My view is:
There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money. I think that if one looks at the lucrative side of it he will always be unsatisfied with the job (if he gets one) but if one loves flying and airplanes he will likely get a job in the industry and always be glad of what he does.

Expectations don't pay off... objectives do.

Forget the flying career, I wouldnt if I knew what it would be like.
I really enjoy flying, but flying an airliner from A to B, fixed routes, procedures, middle of night sign ons, etc is not enjoyable, at least once the novelty wears off.

If you have the money saved for the licence, plus buying type ratings each time you want to change companies, then better you hire or buy a light aircraft / homebuilt and fly for fun.
Hire a Piper Cub, buy an RV4 etc etc.
You could buy several with the money it will cost you to pursue a career.

Enjoy your flying

fly a caravan for fedex, the best job ever!

As a very new PPL student and reading all these posts its difficult not to be downhearted, however, if flying is in your heart you have to do it. I'm a social worker and every day I work with people who tell they wish they had done this...or done that. I've spent too long doing the same and turning 31 this year I'm going for it, sod everyone that tells you its stupid...you only live once. Those that seem a little doom and gloom probably have seen the profession deteriorate but hey we may be young, inexperienced but we have a passion and that counts for a lot.

If you really want to you will get there, I believe that, I earn a reasonable salary but would quite happily half it to even fly cessnas because thats my dream. And I think you need to think outside the box, a lot of people seem determined to walk into a job with Virgin or BA straight away, great if you've £80k down the sofa to go down the Oxford route but most of us dont.

As useful as these threads are there are people out there that just want to tramp all over your dreams and tell you how awful it is...maybe I'm naive but I realised that the first thing I do at work is put on flight radar, I knew I had a problem. You could get run over by a car tomorrow....follow the dream. Right back to aviation law and meteorology :8

There isn't a single pilot on earth who does it for the money.

Wrong! I am one of many who think with a brain, not a heart. I work for a salary. No bucks, no buck rogers. I suggest if you want a lifetime career out of this business you think the same.

[RANT]Which is exactly what Case One meant when he/she mentioned pilots "selling themselves short".

That sentiment ( doing it for the love) is why the industry has been able to shift the burden of training cost onto the student pilot, why T&Cs are plunging across the industry, and above all it's far to simplistic to think that the old :mad: like me are just whinging about T&Cs because we've had enough of flying. After 30 years at the sharp end I and many of my peer group will still own up to getting a kick out of the likes of a smooth landing on a c***py day, an on time arrival, sharing a beer with colleagues downroute, and saying goodbye to the passengers having delivered them safely to their destination.

But as far as the Boss is concerned - I tell him like every other Commercial Licence holder I'm a highly skilled professional and I'm b****ed if I'm going to work for steadily reducing T&Cs ...and IMHO the sooner we all start thinking along the same lines the better.[/RANT]

Canada integrated vs Europe Integrated
 

Hi everyone,

I will appreciate all ur advice. I have worked hard over the years to save for pilot training. I am now ready. From my research, i've concluded that in my position being 30 with 50,000 dollars, Canadian and Euro citizenship, the best route would be Integrated Trainin instead of modular. Right?

Moncton flight school in Canada is what Ive selected over OOA and CTC. They offer integrated training to get fATPL with TCIA and JAA. Cost 56,000 dollars. 1 year duration. They emailed me proffesional information. Now i will go vissit the school first.

I dont know if my decission is right. I believe that I am getting a great deal, but i dont know how the airlines in europe will look at me, will they see me like the OOA and ctc graduates? Canadian training from a recognized institution, dual citizenships. I speak English, Greek, and french fluently.

Thank you very much for your advice. Please advise.

Wiggy - probably the most accurate post so far on this thread.

A320 lo/co F/O, 4000 Hours. Dreamed of being a pilot all my life.

6 years in, and any chance to get out of this industry on a decent-ish salary & I'd be doing it. My health is shot, I hardly ever see wife & kids and over-prescriptive SOP's make the job boring.

My 2 cents' worth.

FliegerTiger
 

Here's a question from a non-professional.

Do you think that lifestyle will change if you move away from a low cost? Or do you think it's a same thing all round for pilots at the likes of Thomson? I'm not being condescending here, I'm asking out of genuine interest.

Not an airline pilot but flying for a (bad) living for some time now. I vary between actively hating it and being ambivalent about it. Which is ironic considering how much time and effort I spent on achieving my 'dream'. Realise now that it was all bit of a mistake and in truth I would have been better off if I'd failed the medical for some reason or other thus bursting my bubble a lot earlier.

But make no mistake flying is not quite like any other job, sure there are comparable jobs. Comparisions with any form of desk job simply doesn't cut it. There are moments where you suddenly realise how lucky you are often when you find yourself looking out the window at something no one on the ground could ever even imagine. But it's not enough and the negatives eventually outweigh the positives. I'm trying to step back now a bit in part to try and enjoy it again and in part because my life outside aviation is now more important to me now.

But it's hard and what happens is that your experience is now considered valuable and you get offered jobs you could only dream of when you were younger. But you hesitate although you must take it because you have no fall back option.

I recently got back in touch with an old pilot friend. We reminisced happily about our formation days and escapades in flying. But we both feel the need to ease out of the job. Disappointed in ourselves we are.

Re read Atr42, wiggy and cruise zombie. They have pretty much nailed it along with others.

My profession is Marine Navigation, I am a 3rd officer in Merchant ships hauling crude oil 28,000 tonnes dispacement + 18,000 tonnes displacement of the ship. Navigating in confined channels, making impossible turns, making the dock with 30 knot wind blowing from shore. GUESS WHAT??? WE ALL THOUGHT WE WHERE GONNA BE CRUISE SHIP CAPTAINS. hahaha......or at least we thought we where gonna travel the world from port to port. The harsh reality is that you work your arse off. None of this applies.

Same is for the the Airline industry. Come one Pilots, why in the heck would you want to discourage yonge pilots to make it to the left seat of a boeing 747? Just because a pilot didnt make it to the left seat of a large airliners doesn't mean anything. Maybe someone else will make it, in a much shorter time and live the dream.

I feel how you feel about the Marine Navigation Industry, I feel burned inside and depleted, but guess what, you have to posses certain qualities, and if you don't have them, then work on them, one of these qualities is not to regret the time, sacrifice, and effort to live a dream. A dream is only alive before you live it. The best part of the adventure is the beginning not the end. This applies to every officer at Sea or Air. Personal Development is very important.

Water doesn't boil at 99 degrees. Imagine to stop the kettle at 99?

even if you never live your dream of flying a specific plane for a living, just look back and pay special attention. You will realize that you lived 80% of your dream already. Don't be ungrateful, and discourage others. Tha only creates negative thoughts in your thoughts, life, energy, trust me this negative energy sticks with you, and people see it in interviews.

Get a personality make over, then you will see how you will attract better jobs.

take care

I believe people watch too much television and hollywood movies... selfesteem comes via other paths.

Navigate don't complain
 

Well they don't realize that landing airline jobs to make a living can be achieved by either being a rich kid where mommy loves you so much and willing to help you go to OAA at age 21, or working your way up first getting a stable career with job security, then make enough money to pay for your training without major debts, then work on personal development, strong will and desire is needed. You get strong personal development through experience, failed attempts, successful attempts, that shows in an interview eg. your body language, your energy, your answers and tone of voice, how you smile etc...and it all has to come naturally.

Trust me, I know.

Wisdom from the Sea

I suspect that the OP needs to decide if he wants "to be a Pilot" or if he wants to "work as a Pilot", since they can be very different things.

How many people who spend their own money on flying puddle jumpers, on days off from their real work, are hating it?