fight against P2F
 

Hi All,

I can't find again the thread about P2F discussion, so I'll write here. I'm experienced pilot flying for one european airline right now, but I've been partly involved in P2F program a time ago. I didin't go thru this P2F scheme, but I've quite valuable informations about all P2F things, about what they will offer you and how many violations are made against the training contract. If there is someone who wants to support this battle against P2F program (provided by EJ), give me know. I don't want to do all as a single person involved. There are several things, like immigration and work permit regulations beeing violated, safety, exceeding duty time limit for JAA license holders and many other things. According the contract you will receive from EJ, you have to follow all instructions from the airline, otherwise your program will be terminated and you loose all your money. This has already happend and makes me the feeling, that the EJ and partmer airline can make easily good profit just by pushing the trainee pilot to the limits, which he doesn't want to exceed. Once you refuse the request, you go home. This case I've well supported by many proofs, but I don't want to write all to the public forum at this time.

Contact BALPA .....just joking they are useless...

Surely this is something for the UK CAA to look at? And they will afford you the anonymity. Good on you for coming forward. BALPA and most pilots in positions of power at EZY have sold themselves out a long time ago. This single disease will be responsible for the demise of this career yet on the campaigns page of BALPA not a single sign of them doing anything about "P2F". Not one.

If you have a case and supporting evidence, go to the CAA, they will take you seriously and it will be anonymous. If you don't, then don't waste your or our time.

I have a couple of thoughts for you, and I clarify that I was never part of any P2F scheme.

If people could pay to start acting in hollywood would they do it? YES
If they could pay to be in the national soccer team? YES
If they could pay to start off as models? YES
etc etc

why all of the above doesn't happen? (at least not in the same way as we intend it). Because most of the businesses are regulated and need quality in the people who are part of them.

Until there is a LAW that forbids asking money any further than for a CPL nothing will change. We have all been desperate for a job/uninformed/not part of the business.

Again, this will never happen because MONEY is what count, and the companies wont allow it. Free market as we have been used to since 1950 doesn t work, it s been proven by this last crisis and by the status of all the poor countries in the world. The problem is at the roots.

Contact your union, and your CAA flight ops inspector.

Hi, just a few points.
EZY did some pay to fly(for line training) last year through a third party but have stopped this because of concerns by trainers( some of those paying were not up to the ctc cadet standard) so there is no point fighting easy on this matter.
There may be stretching of the rostering agreement but I have not heard of actual FTL violations.
All bases are in EU so why would work permits be required unless you are from outside?
There are issues with French employment rules which have been discussed elsewhere.
We used to recruit mostly experienced f/o s with a few selected low hours cadets, now it is all cadets as they are cheaper, there is much that should be improved in their terms but it is not a pay to fly scheme.

Sorry, but did the OP mean easyjet or eagle jet??

Mrx11 - your information is completely wrong if you are referring to easyJet. Do you mean easyJet or Eagle Jet? EasyJet had a brief and very unsuccessful dabble in p2f a few years ago but have not operated a genuine p2f scheme for a long time. Your issues with any scheme easyJet operates are simply incorrect. If you are referring to Eagle Jet then please edit your post to remove any doubt as to which airline you are criticising, as everyone reading this thread thinks you are talking about easyJet.

I do not like the contractural aspects of the flexicrew system any more than anyone else, but it is NOT a p2f scheme. I would strongly suggest you research some long-running threads that cover this issue more fully. Then you can at least gain some understanding of the different entry-level schemes in order to make a valid contribution to what is an important debate.

Norman - isn't the OAA Line Training package with EasyJet classed as P2F for you?

A perfectly valid question hollingworthp. The answer is no as the OAA guys do get paid. They are embraced under the CTC Flexi-crew system and are on the same deal as the CTC cadets. That means they pay for the type-rating and are then paid as contractors thereafter. They are also likely to be offered jobs in the future with easyJet. It is not perfect but it is absolutely not a p2f scheme. The big unknown is how many of our current contract FOs are going to be offered permanent contracts this October and how the selection will be done. That will reveal the true colours of the new regime.

What is the TR price ?

Spot on Mr Wayne. OAA charge 34k for the privilege. Now that's way more than the price of a TR. So what the's remaining 14k or so for?

NSF is right in saying that the DO get paid by the hour for the duration of the contract. And some will see that contract turn into a permanent one. But the way I see it it's still 14k to fly...

P

Sorry for misunderstanding of my original post, I mean Eagle jet, not Easy Jet. Eagle Jet is having this ****ty program in Africa and Indonesia.

What is included in the training package NSF? Is it ground school, sim, and skills test only or does it include line training, so at what point do the 'customers' cease to be 'customers' and become contractors?

mrx111. You could contact the IPA as they are lobbying against pay to fly schemes.

Firestorm - I am reluctant to get too involved here as this is hijacking a legitimate debate about the failings of Eagle Jet and their unprofessional operation.

In answer to your question, a candidate from OAA is sent to easyJet for screening. If successful they pay £34k for the privilege of a type-rating which is done through CAE at Burgess Hill. They get ground school, simulator, Skills Test and airborne base training. They are then the proud owners of a JAA Frozen ATPL with an A320 type-rating. At the end of that they enter the easyJet system for Line Training as any new pilot would with company induction, SEP, Line Training ground school etc. They get paid a flat-rate £1200 for the first few months and after that get paid only when they work by the block hour. Others will give the exact rates but off the top of my head I think it is £43/block hour and £250/day for a standby. There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour. It is clearly not ideal, but the experience of most people so far is that the work has flowed in. The key problem with it is there is no security and it may be helpful for others to publish the key parts of the contract so I do not mislead anyone. Nonetheless, this is clearly not a p2f scheme, despite some very unsavoury aspects to the deal.

As a little aside, an announcement was made this morning that easyJet Swiss have just taken on permanently (on a very good deal) 8 of the flexicrew cadets. Also, we have sent out permanent offers of employment to 37 flexicrew pilots starting 1st Nov. Finally we have announced our intention to offer an unspecified number of permanent contracts in France and Italy on 1st Jan 2011. Every one of those job offers will be from flexicrew pilots. As can be seen, permanent job offers have therefore appeared from this tempororay contract system and the nay-sayers have been proven completely wrong.

There are, however, some apsects to this deal that are, in my judgement, flawed and worth highlighting. Much of the flexicrew system has been designed to keep BALPA away from any contract negotiations and the contracts have not been offered in seniority order. We took on recently through Parc Aviation a number of ex-BMI pilots who were made redundant at BMI. By applying a random experience level which was completely unnecessary we ensured that most of these guys were offered permanent positions prior to our own cadets who joined easyJet before them. In addition, we have decided to hold 'selection' days in order to decide who gets the permanent jobs. This is completely unnecessary as these jobs will go to those who have been flying the line for years in some cases. If they are good enough to fly the line they are good enough to have jobs - it is has to be strict seniority order in order to ensure management 'favourites' are not given extra advancement, and people whose faces do not fit are left out. I have no problem with a clear and just system where under-performing or socially-challenged individuals are not offered permanent jobs. What I do want is an open system without shady deals being done on behalf of 'good blokes' at the expense of their less visible but very competent colleagues. If ever you wanted a reason why responsible union negotiation is so important, just watch what is happening here. As soon as restraints are removed from management then injustice always arises as personal preference takes over from fairness. We need to be all over this like a rash to ensure that the jobs are offered fairly and in the order in which pilots joined the company.

NSF - Whilst not wanting to seem churlish, or pedantic, tha'ts not quite true though, is it.

I KNOW that the offer to the OAA guys/gals included 75 hours of line training that they are expected to fund. Now it is conceivable that EJ in their wisdom decided to remove that requirement from the deal, but then wouldn't you expect the cost to come right down, from the initially advertised £35k - which had included a large wadge of cash for the Line training?

Either way, I would agree the deal is not P2F - it's a kind of P2F hybrid, but it's certainly misleading to claim it's totally not P2F.

"There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour"

I am at a loss to work out why they would be required to pay back costs for a TR they have had the priveledge of paying 34K for? Is that not already more than enough? It may not be P2F, but it ain't that far off....

NSF, can explain, and use all the elequant wording he want`s. The 34k is for the typerating, and the line training, the peanuts paid during line training is just for show. After line training is complete, there might, or might not be a job offer. It dressed up, but still P2F.

Pay for your job/training
 

In 1991 when I left university I applied to BA and the RAF as a pilot. I did the selections and was told that I had reached the required standard but no pilot positions were available due to cutbacks in recruitment in BA and personnel reductions in the RAF (I turned down the subsequent offer of Engineering Officer). Had I been taken on, there would have been a net payment to me from day 1 of my employment.

I became an civilian engineer and flew for a hobby in gliders and light aircraft. Eventually I saved enough money to pay for a CPL/IR and got that. Then the JAR regulations were brought in and I needed an MCC so I did that. Nobody would offer me a flying job due to lack of experience so I did an instructor rating. The total outlay for me was approximately £50k. I won't include loss of earnings because that will distort the issue.

After two years of training and four years of various employment as an instructor, aerial survey, and air taxi pilot I reached the break-even point in my flying career (not including subsistence expenses).

For illustration, compare that to the approximate costs of the current Easyjet ab initio pilot.

£80k for an integrated course.
£34k for the cadet scheme.

I suppose the break even point will come sooner for these cadets than me, but probably at greater risk because there is no guarantee of selection to be a cadet or indeed employment at the end.

There was a step change around 1990 when the airlines realised that they could save themselves the cost of training because of hobby pilots like me, and cadet pilots of schemes like Easyjet's.

That doesn't make it right, but we live in a capitalist society which deems this fair. Those who are lucky enough to be able to find the funding up front get the job (provided they can meet the minimum standard which on the evidence of the accident statistics appears to be high enough).

The current situation (and for the last 20 years) is that there are enough people with enough money and desire and minimum ability to pay for their own training to be a pilot. This is the political and commercial reality we live in. Unless the supply of pilots willing to pay for their training dries up this situation will continue. I expect that airlines will try to find some way of increasing the contribution of the prospective employee until that threshold is finally reached. We are not at that point yet.

You may feel this is not right or fair, but consider the alternatives. A meritocracy would provide the alternative route where everyone gets a chance based on ability. A socialist society would give everyone with the desire the chance to be a pilot based on reaching a minimum ability (followed by random selection). Neither of these political systems are in place in any democratic society today. Winston Churchill said: “Democracy is the worst type of government, except all those others that have been tried.” I suppose we are stuck with it for now.

Saint - you are right that we are stuck with this. A meritocracy is in general an illusion and certainly the systems of the RAF and BA would fall into that category. As we all know, life is a game of Snakes and Ladders - I have gone up ladders and down snakes on numerous occasions and fairness, alas, did not enter into it. I am only too aware that is the grace of God that has given me the opporunities I now have, and there are others who are every bit as able as I am (such as that is!) who are in a career nowhere land.

G.S. Willy - that is simply not correct. The only real change from previous CTC schemes is that an input is required for the Type Rating. Previous CTC cadets got £1000/month for 6 months but did get a permanent job eventually. I do not like it any more than anyone else, but is simply not true to say it is a p2f scheme along the lines of Eagle Jet's.

underread east - I have not made myself clear. The £20/block hour is not in addition to the £34k. If you have the £34k up front that is the end of the matter. If you do not have it, then a system exists whereby the company pays a chunk of type rating for you and you pay them back via the £20/block hour flown. I hope that is more clear - my apologies.

Clanger 32 - Hi again! I would have to check the fine detail of the OAA contract but it nonetheless is essentially a payment system as a contract pilot. I do not like it, but as we have discussed previously it is really the only way to a real job right now. As I have indicated earlier in the thread, there are now many people getting permanent jobs and that can only be a good thing. Therefore it is absolutely not a scheme of the type offered by Eagle Jet. I am aware as I write this that I am seeming to be an advocate of this scheme - I most definitely am not. I am, nonetheless, keen that all sides of the story are written and that people see that it is not all bad news. Best of luck.

the thing is Norman, there *ARE* JAA approved A320 type rating courses available in the EU at under 20,000Euros and that is a one off cost without implementing the buying power of a large number of scheduled commitments.

so if the cost of the TR through EZ's scheme with OAA is 34K UK pounds, then there is a lot of money gone adrift there.

Now, i don't consider that EZ's fiscal management is that bad they are getting screwed badly on a TR cost; It's a free market and EZ are free to shop sim providers for the best price.

So the argument that the guys are getting paid is just disingenuous really. The *considerably* over the market rate that candidates are having to stump for the TR can equally be considered that they are 'loaning' EZ money and being repaid that loan; Or it could also be considered that the additional cost they are paying is the cost of *salary* [sic] that they will be getting paid.

All this for a short term contract, on the hope that they may get offered a regular position.

out of what quantity of fleixcrew pilots on the books ?
37 pilots,
38 pilots
50 pilots
100 pilots
1,000 pilots.

it's all relative.

Look, I'm not being a dick here NSF, but really if barks like a dog, walks like a dog, licks its balls like a dog, then, likewise, if you are paying over double the available market rate for something and getting paid *some* of that balance back over a given term and have no permanent commitment or position and its for a given short term period, on the hope that you *may* be offered one, well then.. it's a dog.

We are not stuck with this!
 

As long as the likes of NSF (experienced EJ Capt) and Saint (experienced GA pilot), believe we are stuck with P2F and other hybrid schemes it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy and the HR/Payscale/Mgt teams will continue to rub their hands with glee.

The fact is pilot recruitment is finally beginning to move in a postive manner. With Emirates looking for 200 this year and 500 next, Virgin opening interview doors again by end of 2010, Jet2 trawling for all levels of experience, Air Berlin expanding. Now is the time to say NO to these "deals".

BALPA needs to wake up (it is for its members to rise up and demand investigations), the CAA UK needs information on all such schemes and the concerns of Line and Training Pilots (They issue Operating Certificates). This is as serious as as FTLs. Financial worries, poor sleeping accomodation, low self esteem have no place in the cockpit (see: US Q400 Colgan crash). FOs need to be viewed as potential Captains not RHS warmers.

Bruce Wayne - I tend to agree with you. This is a dog, but it is not a wolf! I am not going to justify the unjustifyable - I have huge reservations about aspects of this deal. It is, nonetheless, not a p2f deal and it is likely, eventually, to lead to permanent employment with easyJet. As importantly, it is the only way of getting permanent employment with easyJet for the foreseeable future. You have to weigh it up, do the sums and see if you can deal with it. I do not agree with it, but that is the way it is at the moment.

angelorange - I am not saying we are stuck with this. I am, however, saying that at the moment this is the deal that exists. I do not like it, but that is frankly irrelevant. I see a 2-pronged approach - make this deal as good as we can while it is what is on the table, but fight behind the scenes to get it changed. The honest truth is that market forces are what will change this situation and that is what is happening right now. I will be delighted if 300 easyJet pilots resign next month - that will have an enormous impact on our terms and conditions. I have to say that I do not believe that will happen, and for all its faults, easyJet remains among the best of what is on offer. Time will tell, and I will be delighted to be proven wrong but from where I sit we have an almost infinite supply of willing volunteers to take the place of the more experienced FOs who will leave and are willing to work for significantly less than the people they are replacing. If we run short of promotable FOs (and I do not think we will), then we will recruit DECs as we always have done. Harsh assessment, but that is how I see it.

I might be slightly og topic. But OAA and Jonathan Curd with his a320typerating are offering an 320 typerating with 150 hours linetraning trough BMI for 35000 pounds. Many that have done this course are getting on the flexicrew contract with Easy and are being offered permanent contracts. My I ask what the difference is between this guys and the guys coming directly from OAA. They are paying the same amount of money!!!

I just notice on the IPA (Independent Pilots Association) Welcome to the IPA website (members area unfortunately).

Not quite true with the numbers.
Training is at OAA Gatwick. Pay is 50 / hour plus standby days from the start of line training.
Increases after 500 hours.

Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
 

http://s0.2mdn.net/viewad/1694568/fl...x90_121911.gif


Curds at it again. Rumour has it this time its with Atlas Jet in Turkey, though you could go direct and avoid the middle 'man'.

No need to register on the website for further information, of which there is little or no content anyway. Not even the price. For those wishing to peruse the site click here

Given his reputation, this is fast becoming the Del-Boy of aviation. :ugh:

Funny enough, I was just saying in an other thread the pay to work scam is a booming activity.
And nowadays more and more people cannot find any problem with it.
Soon we will have to wonder who has the most expensive ticket, the passenger or the F/O?

It's sad, really sad.

I think the reason that ever fewer people take issue with P2F is that there isn't one!

P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.

Every cloud....................................:E

What?
 

Bignumber,

P2f is only becoming the norm now because newbee's think that it's the only way to get employment in a downturn. The number of P2f guys that get jobs at the end is probably the same as the number who get a job staight out of flying school.
These forums are littered with P2f people who have paid the money, did the 500 hours and are now still unemployed. This would lead me to believe that the only people who do it are either,

Desperate with cash,
Desperate with no cash but can get someone to guarantee another loan,
Unable to get a job as they don't have the right stuff or too bloody impatient to wait it out until the economy improves or just get sucked in by people who believe your crap that it's now the only way to get a job!

Go spread your message somewhere else.

Well said Tarmac.

I don't openly take issue with P2F anymore because it is not my money. If someone thinks it is the best for them, then go ahead. I personally think it is foolish to spend that kind of money on line training. I also think it is quite ridiculous to buy a type rating without a job guarantee. I get about one private message a week from individuals asking me were they can get a type rating for cheap since I mentioned once that I know of a place, however I have stopped responding to those types of PMs.

And P2F is definitely not the norm. I have yet to meet anyone personally who has done P2F and received a job (at least I haven't met anyone who admitted it). In fact, I never met anyone in person who was seriously interested in doing P2F. If it were not for the nobs on this site, I would not have even known about most of these p2f schemes.

In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.

I agree with zondaracer 'In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.'

What Twaddle!!

Just look at the headline banners here on PPRUNE; plenty of opportunities for a nice bit of P2F!

Rightly so; it looks like fun to me. If one can gain access to the ready's then anyone can jump straight into the cockpit of a A320 or 737.

Curd knows this and provides a valuable link to realise a dream for countless Wannabes. Why knock it? Everyones having fun. Why be a kill joy?

Better still; the public continue to enjoy subsidized airfares courtesy of our pool of punters. MOL stated some time ago that he would drive pilot salaries down to that of bus drivers; he's achieved even greater!! Bus drivers wouldn't pay for the chance to beg for a job! MOL charges for his interview process and I think it's great!

I thought that Turkey had a 500 minimum time requirement for expat F/O's?

Qualifications
 

Bignumber,

Do you have more than 250 hours? do you even have a licence?

You don't have alot of life experience I think.

A lot of money is involved with "pay to work".

More and more pilots are involved and it is not clear who exactly and how many persons get the money at the end. Some weird stories between the HR and flight department of the companies involved probabely... Pay to fly looks like corruption.

If no F/O: no flight possible, the pilot paying to work (yes paying to work, not for a type rating, not for touch and goes...) with paying passengers on board is shooting himself dead when nobody forced him.

In some countries it wouldn't even be legal according to the labour law.

The airlines involved might speak about "training" or something similar to justify themselves avoid troubles and stay hidden. Thing is that when you have paying passengers and you are asked by dispatch to do the flight to carry those passengers, there is no way to pay for it. It's so obvious that it's incredible that in 2011 we have to explain it.

However the airlines involved, the scam organizations advertizing and the pilots themselves are not going to complain to any international court... For now. But I can see the thing happening one day or another... Who knows...

The sad thing is that us, experienced pilots, and moderators/old pprune posters here gave up it seems.

No it's not the norm. But even if it was, it would be even more sad and it would still be wrong.

Let's not give up. Allowing those scams takes the job and salaries from some pilots to give a paying ticket to some others (or the same ones), it's not creating any job, it's not helping anything, more money is spent illegaly (stolen from the pilot community if there is one), and the whole profession is ashamed. Only some scam organizations and bad HRs are taking advantage of it. Wake up!

My fellow ppruners, please don't give up and explain your viewpoint for the ones still confused who beleives it creates jobs. Explain that Aviation is not about short cut, bad decisions, but about integrity and enjoying the travel more than the destination.

Cheers.


Link: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4446...et-pprune.html

P2F is common, very common. I've seen the lists of type rated pilots lining up to get their chance. If you have not been unfortunate enough to be in the system during the last 3-4 years I would politely ask you to keep your mouths closed because you have no idea. It's been nothing but pain and hardship trying to avoid the evil that is P2F. In fact, it's due of my thankless morals 3 years ago that I didn't get a jet job sooner (sorry if that hurts you, but for some of us it’s a jet job or no job because that’s the only thing that will bring food on the table, enabling me to pay a £800 mortgage and raise a young family). The guys who did Curd’s P2F at the time are today on perm contracts and heading for their commands taking home upwards of £80k pa.

If you have undergone modular training in the last 3-4 years, unless you got lucky with Ryanair (Which is obviously not "P2F" :rolleyes:), chances are you are still looking for your first flying job. Traditionally some other UK carriers have taken on a handful of modular trained goes every 6 months but with the recession that’s not been possible. In the UK for newbies, unless you’re an Oxford or CTC git you have no chance except with Ryanair. Just look at the cozy relationships between these flights schools and the biggest recruiting airlines in the UK, lowly modular guys like us have no chance. You’ll sometimes here from people “there are jobs”. Of course there are! but that is a silly thing to say given current unemployed pilot statistics.

On the subject of Atlas Jet. Desperate people continue to queue up which has caused them to become out of control with their pricing. A whole bunch of guys went out there having paid €30,000 but were told there was a new Turkish “Government” tax of around €10k and only broke this news to guys and gals after doing the sim check. Just ask the pilots with the other airline doing line training in Turkey if they are paying this (the answer is a big no).

So, what are you saying? A clear viewpoint (go for it or not?) on the phenomenon would be welcomed coming from an older poster like you, especially for the ones, the thousands ones now that have to take a decision.

What super pilot said is correct this is just the way things are at the moment. The p2f is always a high risk gamble with no guarantee of a job .But i do think that it should help you to find a job with 500 hours on a320 and 1000 hours total .You all know it's a expensive gamble best of luck :ok: