Enough is enough
 

Dear all,

I am a very long time reader, first time poster. Also I have had a go with the search button for "IR revalidation" but it turned up nothing, so forgive me if this has been answered before. Just post me a link, please.

I'm going to make my post in two parts here. The first is why I am asking, the second is what I am asking.

So in 2006 I had my own home, a great job and nice girlfriend. But I cashed in all my chips and began integrated flight training in Jan 2007. Well you guys know what happened at the back end of that year. Now I am not here to moan. I may now be unemployed, 33, living with my mum, totally broke, single and unable to get work of any sort ... even McDonalds don't want pilots, but I am one of the lucky ones.

One of my friends never found pilot employment and his wife just left him because he keeps chasing his dream, ploughing any money he has into it. He had 2 young kids with her. I know a young woman who trained and having not found a job in 3 years and heavily indebted, is severely depressed. But rather than seek help because she is afraid taking anti-depressants will invalidate her medical (which in all honesty doesn't get used anyway) she sits around cutting herself and removing her hair strand by strand in case an airline might call.

But as I say I am lucky. I have my health, my sanity and whilst I don't have two pennies to rub together, I have no debt.

I thought I'd mention that to deter the ever optimistic noobs who will tell me to hang in there and keep my chin up, because I just want an honest answer.

I have an fATPL + 500 hrs, but am never going to afford a type rating. I'm also quite sure there will be no opening of flood gates, desperate airlines grasping for anyone that can spell pilot or that I will win the lottery. I can't afford the pound each week. So waffle over ... my question

My license is up for renewal again. Now having been sold a dream that 4 years on is still only that, I kind of resent paying an annual tax to a flight school to renew my license. I am forever told of the horror letting it lapse.
"If you don't get a renewal, you have to revalidate ... with a CAA guy!" shock horror.

I have to get back in the aircraft again this time around anyhow and I don't care who sits next to me. What I am thinking is I will just snowball flying and get on with my life. If I carry on waiting about, I won't have one. I'm sick of applying for jobs that take hours to fill in online apps and never hearing a reply. I'm tired of searching through thousands of jobs that always want more experience than I have. I have kissed enough arses and gotten nothing in return. I just want to fly in my spare time for fun and have a life now.

However if a miracle should happen and 16000 pilots are killed in a freak accident at a pilot's conference, I would like to be able to go get my license revalidated. Long story short, what is the difference between renewal and revalidation in terms of effort and cost? I couldn't give two hoots that "An airline might not view that very well on your CV", that bridge when it comes.
I'd rather someone who knows the answer gives it than idle speculation (here's hoping), and that its not answered by either a troll or an air school stooge pretending to be an ex student. I would ask my old school but they would undoubtedly try to terrify me into doing it.

Thanks to anyone who helps, any link to back up your advice would be awesome. I just can't find a definitive answer :ok:

I'll sticky this for a while.

WWW

Good post

"If you don't get a renewal, you have to revalidate ... with a CAA guy!" shock horror."

Are you sure about that? I know someone who took three years out to regain his sanity away from aviation. Everything had expired. He renewed his license, sat and passed a medical and did another type rating. No CAA guy in attendance in the sim.

hang on in there and keep your chin up.

alternatively, if you have no debt, why not get a loan, pay for a type rating and actually get a job?

there will now follow posts from the 'don't pay for TR' brigade, but these are the times we are in, like it or not.

good luck

Bungle Bear - Maybe he doesn't want any debt, by taking a punt on a TR.
After all that is one expensive gamble, however if you are gambling with your parents money, then crack on...

I have decided to take some time out from flying full time for a year or two. To concentrate on having a life and paying some debt, spending some time with my doris and my family.
You will quickly realise that the cruise can be immensely boring, endless early starts and late finishes, weeks away from home, rubbish pay and bullying managers will eventually take their toll.

One piece of advice if I may. Take the stress out of job hunting. Take a job that will interest you as a stop gap, earn some cash, you will be amazed how a bit of coin in your pocket will make life feel better.
Set an evening aside once a week to send out those CVs and chasing letters.
Then set a couple of goals for the next two years.
Say... save up for the IR renewal, then a longer term goal of say the FIs course. You will be amazed how much your flying will improve and you may realise that flying is more than just A-B and back 2 times a day.

A clear mental state is one of the most important keys to success.

Regarding your female friend who is suffering. She should see her local GP for assistance. There is some excellent counselling that is free, that will really help.

Good luck

Seems to be slight confusion on renewing and revalidating. Revalidation is annual and can be done in a FNPTII every other year, ie one year FNPTII the next in an aircraft.

Renewal before 5 years has lapsed needs to be done in the aircraft with a CAA approved examiners (same really as revalidation just it is in aircraft) Renewal after 5 years has to be done with a CAA Staff examiner.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_lt...ection%20E.pdf

For a job you will need a valid IR, quite usually at the time of application. For the first type rating you need a valid IR on the day that you start the course. You don't after you have the first one.

I would sit down with a piece of paper and try to come up with a plan. If you want a break then go for it, park everything and return. A few months away from the should I should I not revalidate, filling in countless numbers of application forms and feeling miserable might pass and you might come back with a new enthusiasm or decide to walk away. Main priority is feeling happier.

Mate If you have no debt, then you should be able to afford to go and work for peanuts pushing A/C in and out of hangers at your local flying club, work their bar, find work in an ops department ect. That is if you can't find a job flying a 172 for an aerial photography firm or tow gliders.... you get the idea.

Believe me, the money might be rubbish but the in involvement aviation scene and a lot of the people you meet, will hopefully make this period one of the most rewarding and interesting of your aviation career as well as getting your foot on the first rung of the ladder.

On a side note please can you get your friend to seek some help. As has already been said, there are some good people out there to talk to.

Nice one...
 

:ok:Sour and hard facts in your post. I guess pilots all around are facing the same be it in Europe, Asia, America or anywhere else untill you have a pot of Gold. But it is true. For a year I didn't get any jobs either. They used to reply back with saying your over-qualified for the job or "Your a pilot, get a flying job, not a desk job".


We have a CAA which is a mix of FAA and JAR and buncha other authorities around the world.

A renewal of the license happens when one is flying and keeping his skills current by doing atleast the minimum 3 T/O and landings every 90 days plus, a PPC, IPC, Route Check, Ground Refreshers. This allows you to get a renewal at the end of the year.

A revalidation occurs when one gets a license issued and doesn't fly for more then 2 years (could be 5 not sure). This includes some flight training and re-examination of your CPL or ATPL exams.

Every wannabe should read this!
Good luck with whatever you do!

Reminds me of myself many years ago.

You need currency to show any prospective employer you can fly. It's that simple.

The only way to do it is to find som e way of not paying for your hours...that means towing, instructing or other GA pondlife jobs.

I got my FATPL in 1991...couldn't have been a worse time and I like you never got a bite or reply to most of my CV and applications.

I renewed for the next four years, several hundred pounds to fly a Senneca III for an hour and a half, until I managed to save up enough for an FI rating. This got me 800hrs in a year and the interview I so desperately dreamed of.

By the way, I fixed fruit machines, cut trees down and got five stars at Mcdonalds on the way. Mcdonalds don't care a jot if you're a qualified pilot. They want regular reliable and normal looking humans. that's all.

Thank you all for your replies. I think I have enough information regarding renewal.

Also thank you for the support, but I think its now time to reassess. I have been doing the 'pond life' jobs for some years. Its why I never managed to save up, and it has still not brought me one jot closer. I got 500 hours and it was good flying too, all over Europe albeit SEP, but this is insanity.

Most pilots think that there is something special about them, I was no different. That when the interviews come you have that x-factor they will be looking for, as you are better than everyone else, and they will spot it. Well I never even got an interview. I prided myself on what a good pilot I am, and a massive part of being a good pilot is making good decisions. Is forsaking all else, hell-bent on a career that may never come to anything a good decision?

My career is like a bad approach. The woman was yelling "whoop whoop, pull up, pull up" ages ago, but I ignored her and dropped the gear. I'm now past the inner marker and the runway still seems as far away as ever. There's a very slim chance I'll land it and be a hero, but the odds are against it. Should I just plough on, nose first into the asphalt because of pride, blind faith and reluctance to face the truth? Or do I have the strength of character to firewall the throttle and yell "going around" so I can try another approach? One that is safer and where no one will get hurt.

I always thought I would be that guy, who would make the tough call, and get the decision right. Well ... this is my chance ... because enough is enough. Going Around! ;)

It is a depressing truth we face, I have been done that route several times in other careers in the past.
Having been self employed all my life since I was 20, I learned to live with this pressure early. It has hard not knowing what will happen tomorrow, you constantly see the bar get changed, for what you need to get in or not. If you haven't been used to pressures like this, it can really get to you. You are kind of lucky, but still I feel for you and all the others that are less fortunate.

We can all have regrets in our lives, I have a few, if I had followed my dream, instead of using my senses in 1991, today I might have been captain with a major airline like my friend who dared the step, and had the money to loose that time.
With this uncertainty in life we can not ever know what is the right step, right time, the right move to do, to make sure all goes good.
Personally I have one hope, one person, who has told me he will try to get me a job, it is 50 50, and the good thing I will know very soon. I will get a yes or no, I am prepared for the no, as this is the most likely outcome, still I will be very disappointed, even knowing the most likely outcome, but as long as there is life, we cling on to a positive outcome.
I might be one of the lucky ones in many ways, but I have many negative factors with me too. Debt free, good, a back up business, good, my age, very negative, no time to waste.

It seems like it is a game of russian roullette we are playing, companies coming toying and playing with our feelings, our emotions, our dreams.
Telling us to pay our TR, pay few hours for line training, maybe if we like you we will give you a job!
For them our money, our £30.000 is pocket money, for us it is one or more years of hard work.

I have heard of companies offering assessments, they will know how many pilots they will need to employ, so if they do plan to give 1 or 2 pilots a chance, they should not make 12 pilots go trough their TR and line training which they make the pilots pay themselves.

Would they be so squander this money on training extra pilots in the old days, when they would pay for the line training themselves?
Would they pay your training and just dispense you like trash! Expensive trash!

Having been self employed all my life, had people work for me, I would never treat my staff with such contempt and ignorance!

The other day I met a pilot, who had a great job on a private jet 737, we talked about getting into jobs etc., and got on to the topic of paying for line training and your own TR. And he told me he would not like to fly with a pilot who had done this, as it degraded every-bodies conditions, terms etc. Still talking to me he could understand, that due to my age I would want to find a way into the business.

But I don't want to have to go that route, but it easy for the experienced pilots in their jobs to tell us newbies what we should do, what I have noticed is that most pilots fully established, does not really know what it takes to get a job today.
There are a few that care, but most of them probably don't have time, they don't have interest of this anymore, which is natural.
There are even plenty of pilots that take advantage of newbies, with so called sim training, etc. Also many pilots are used to recruit us to these TR/line training programs, so my question for this why do these well paid pilots, make money on the naivety of new pilots, and then they complain of their degraded terms and conditions!

Should the profession take a better look at itself, and clean up from within. I have just finished my IR, and I am already fed up with it, I believe many are involved in backhanders to help each other, FTO;s , TR companies etc. It stinks, I am sorry, it is the truth as I can see it.

It is better to have failed than have the regret that you never tried in the first place. I have a friend who wants to make it big in Hollywood, the guy has been struggling to get roles. He recently got a break in a Mcds tv advert. Will he make it? No one knows, but at least he's trying like you. So, hang in there. A few years down the line you will look back and wonder how you made it through.

Son,keep in mind that aviation is filled with the biggest losers on earth.
it 's all about politic, stealing job, jealousy, envy, and egoism.
it s 100% me me me,...and **** you all!

I am disgusted by all of you!:yuk:

when you will be punching your FMS at FL300 all day long, on your 737, will you be more happy?. no, you will complain about the job on the 747 you want for or why you are not captain after 3 years.

"don't ask what aviation can do for you, ask what you can do for aviation".

How can anybody justify entering a market that is already flooded with qualified pilots? I think ppracticalybroke has "got real" the expensive way and is demonstrating continuing sanity by not getting into debt. Noobs (or should it be knobs) suggesting that "following your dream" is a rational course of action are deluded. Not until the thousands of currently unemployed are absorbed by expansion and retirement will it make sense to train as a pilot. So my advice would be to save for a bigger revalidation in a few years time; and what's so bad about being tested by the CAA.

The important thing is to avoid debt and try for a life outside aviation for a while. I'm sure it will pick up and your current position will mean that you'll be one of the first few thousand into work. But I can't tell you when. My own company will be employing 80 or so pilots (the names of the next 200 or so are already known) so we still have a log jam of 120. My crystal ball predicts four years as being the great rush... But I won't be betting my own money!

My view is if you don't have the license you wont get the job when things do move. Breaks can come quick when natural attrition, and no one being trained because of the glut. Hang on in the there! Things in all probability, will come right.

I know where you are coming from but why should someone give up on their lifelong dream of becoming a pilot just cos there's too many pilots?

I don't wish to be over critical here- its easy to be. I have a friend in a very similar position. You just have to get flying!!! Work in your local flying club, wash planes, take in the atmosphere- meet people who are retired airline pilots, test pilots and have been there and done that! As the previous post says tow gliders, save alittle money, fund a FI rating. None of these things will allow you to sit in the RHS of an airliner, HOWEVER you will meet people, and one thing leads on to the next. You might just be in the right place at the right time when that Falcon co-pilot suddenly leaves or when the small turbo prop regional airline or air taxi company on the airfield needs a new co-pilot.

Instead to many people want to go straight from flying school to flying a B737 on 45K a year. A facet of modern society I believe.

I realise its easy to give advice my friend. Best of luck!

Capt Unreg - quote taken from the Op's 2nd post:

"I have been doing the 'pond life' jobs for some years. Its why I never managed to save up, and it has still not brought me one jot closer. I got 500 hours and it was good flying too, all over Europe albeit SEP, but this is insanity."

Your advice normally would be sound, but he has been flying!

Granted but only for 500 hours though or even only for 250 hours if 500 hrs is his tt. Maybe ppraticallybroke should tell us exactly what "pond life" jobs he means. Yes life is a lottery sometimes- with employment, with relationships, with health and life in general.

Because you can't live from dreams or dreams with debts that's why. I'm a wannabe and I realise this very well. I hear friends of me -who are doing their ATPL's- sayin:, I borrowed money from my parents and I'll 'only' (!) have to borrow 30.000€ from the banks+ my typerating. This is insane.
I'd rather keep flying as a hobby with a nice job, then to be depressed because I don't have a job as a pilot, have all my licences, spent very much money on it and maybe lost all I had on the way.
Was it painful to face it? Yes. It still is from time to time. But this is not a dreamworld where you can realise everything you want in life.

a friend fo mine once worked as a flight attendent while waiting for the cockpit job. In the end it was good experience in the airline life, and fairly good pay, too.... and when the market reopened, she got that front seat. Is that something you might consider?

Enough is enough?
 

Hi ya'll ppracticallybroke, excellent username!....I have a t-shirt which says 'I started out with nothing, and still have most of it left' :) Ultimately - only you can decide what is best for you - maybe look up Edward De Bono's Six Hats (parellel thinking tool) - this could help you explore your dilemma fully, looking at the issues from all angles enabling you to make an 'informed choice' Am sorry to hear about your friends' troubles, - the C.A.B./other agencies can offer advice/support for debt issues. I have experience of workin' in the field of Mental Health - and as others have posted - please advise your lady friend to seek urgent support/counselling.

Some advice I was given recently was -'Follow your bliss' .......I wish you all the best whatever you decide.......

That is one way of looking at it, another is the reason people are paying to do type ratings is because some people are prepared to pay for type ratings, and so the vicious circle begins. If everyone sat on their hands and refused to pay for the type ratings, the likes of Liarair would have to re-think their recruitment strategies.

First there was CAA, then JAA, then EASA

Courses: CPL/IR/ME, then MCC, followed by JOC, now MPL, TRs, Line trainings, First Officer accelerated, Interview preps with experienced captains

What is next in this bottomless financial pit? Space shuttle type rating

Anyone knows where I can buy Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job? :cool:

Eagle Jet International, Inc. Scroll to the bottom, 747 Captaincy for sale :ouch:

Unbelievable, makes me feel sick. Does anyone know who runs Eagle Int and how they share profit with airliness they use for line experience?

volunteerpilot

"..........Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job?"

What on earth makes you think being a B747 Captain is "the top"? To me it's about life style. I know people who fly 10% of the flying a B747 Captain would do and on better pay than most of them.

Don't get carried away with size.

an :mad: named stephane, frenchy...:yuk:

I think it was a joke doubleu-anker. Don't take too literally ;)

Sad story but it's all about perspective.
 

To be sure your situation is a sad one but not uncommon I'm afraid. My mid life career change to ATPL didn't work out at first either but I went back to my old IT career as a contractor, earned fab money for 18 months, did a bit of private flying and luckily got a call from Flybe.

Been flying 4 years now for them and am happy I made the career change even if my bank manager isn't. Truth is though that even when you make it to the right seat of an airliner with a major airline after a while you start to want to work less days for more pay on heavier metal - so I'm still frustrated and so are all the co-pilots I know. Truth is that we work bloody hard to take home £2000 a month, it's not enough for a good lifestyle and the time off stinks (a weekend is one usable night here). I suspect if I managed to get into one of the quality outfits - charter/BA/Virgin I might finally sit back and think 'I made it' because it doesn't feel like it from where I'm currently sitting.

What I'm trying to say is that this job may not live up to your expectations anyway if you end up working for a LCC (except maybe Easyjet) because there are just too many people earning more money easier in other ways.

My advice for what it's worth would be to get yourself the best paid job you can in the meantime. Take 6 months off from worrying about flying, enjoy life, go for a beer, take a holiday and then reassess. Sounds like letting the rating lapse a few months is no biggie. I actually took over 12 months out from applying to airlines and had a bloody good time during my IT contracting 18 months and not thinking about it really helped me get it in perspective because the whole thing had made me completely miserable. At the end of the day your hobbies, family, girlfriend, kids are what's important not bloody flying a piece of metal around the sky 4 times a day and missing your kids birthday while you do it!

It really isn't the be and end all. In fact it's no more enjoyable than doing lots of other things like being a tree surgeon, selling fancy cars, working as a photographer, being cabin crew, working in the military. There are loads of interesting things to do with your life that don't involve getting up at 4am and feeling knackered most of the time!!

Anyway, hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck. Incidentally the tree surgeon one is interesting - I talk to one of those regularly and he loves it - fresh air, more work than he can handle, countryside, work when he wants, loves wood, a real man's job, using his expertise and more money than I make doing this... Makes you think doesn't it?

funny you mention that, my next door neighbour's tree surgeon used to be a pilot, he gave it up to start the tree work and enjoys it more (and makes more) than he did flying apparently.

No to CTC
 

I've been keeping an eye on the industry while I worked my way through Uni. Fully intended to go through with it when I graduated this May with an Aeronautical Engineering degree. My job prospects are alright - no solid leads but placement experience and a couple of interviews coming up - including one for CTC which I intend to turn down.

Its been very difficult to decide not to follow the dream of flying, but when I look at the possibility of spending £100k (probably having to beg my parents to remortgage the house) with an additional £30k on type rating and floundering in the holding pool for a year, I realise that it's just not a sane thing to do.

I may leave uni without a job and I may end up stuck in an office, but if I'm honest with myself, CTC is not looking like the dream that I imagine it to be.

Face the facts and weigh up your options. If you can justify it to yourself, then go for it.

CC - sounds like you have a very wise head on your shoulders.

You don't have to give up on your dream. Get a decent job, live life a bit and do your flight training modular.

Takes a lot of the pressure away from the all or nothing integrated scenario and you get to live a little and enjoy your flying in the meantime.

You have time on your side.

My attitude towards flying has changed completely - when I left integrated I thought I have to be flying the RHS of a jet - financially the money would help - but honestly now I have a stable 9-5 job, I fly at weekends, and love being around the apron meeting new people. I feel like I cheated a bit by doing an integrated course, and now I'm doing what I should have done which is building up my experience the hard way, something I believe is far more rewarding. I think there is so much to learn in aviation that we don't learn during an integrated course - and whilst I might be able to fly an ILS or an NDB approach - there is a lot to learn from people who've flown every weekend for the past 30 years. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if something came up, I'd reject it in favour of GA, I'm just not desperately looking for a hole to throw 30k down.

I know exactly how you feel, been there got the t shirt. I got my licence hot off the press in 2005 and am still looking. My last revalidation was in 2007 (expired 2008). The renewal is 5 years from expiry of the last IR renewal so that gives me another 2 years grace if I need it. I am looking to renew this year though.

Since qualifying I did all the usual CV bashing and butt licking but to no avail. I got one interview and sim ride with a good company but the rejection letter almost beat me back home. Due to lack of funds and seemingly going nowhere I walked away for a couple of years, but it was always there in the back of my mind, and I was always on PPRuNe or pilot jobs sites keeping an eye on things. The FI route never appealed, not that there was any work going anyway. Just over 2 years after I qualified the recession hit and companies were going bust. Almost everyone I knew from my training days(even those with FI tickets) were coughing up serious money to go to FR. I like to think I am a flexible person, and I would be willing to come to some arrangement over funding any TR with the right company, but I won't do this with FR under the current conditions they use. I won't spend £30k just to be dicked about. If FR just made a few changes to how they operate I would seriously consider them, but they won't. I was recommended to another company but they required a JOC so that was the end of that. Despite my referee having been with the company for many years, his letter was effectively rejected. I have my theories as to why, and they involve deals done elsewhere with certain flying schools.

I don't see myself as a jet god either. I would be happy in a King Air for the rest of my career. I am also not the job hopping type, so I am happy to commit many years to the right company. Investment is a 2 way street.

Like everyone else on here, I love flying with a passion, any flying, but I won't sell my soul and ruin my life just to get in the air. I will see how things go over the next year or two, and will give it my all again if things start to show a large improvement. After that, I will be classed as too old and not fit for training despite my excellent training record.

Good luck to all in the same position.

My fellow dodo, I sympayhize and can relate 100%. I would try and enjoy other aspects of life and accept that the worls is currently in the s***e and will be for the forseeable future. My last IR revalidation/renewal in FNPT2 was 26 months ago. Has been of no help. Don't put it to rest permanently, but accept a timeout. Remember the 5 years only. I found it very hard to swallow my pride and accept the situation, but think I have now come to terms as best I can. Work in a bank, home everynight by 6pm, every weekend off, bank holidays etc... Money is poor, but the lifestyle beats my 8 years as a despatcher at LGW. Some days I wonder how hard it would be to go back to airline hours????? (A friend of mine who now flies for DHL based in Germany, who has had to leave wife and newborn in West Sussex makes me wonder why i even want to fly....) I know it is of no real help, but remember it is not you personally. Supply vs Demand. We have been sold a dream, aviations version of the timeshare. Life is short, so get some pleasure out of it. I am going to start flying a PA28 again this summer for FUN. Keep your chin up, and remember (unfortunately) you are not alone.


Hopefully this makes you smile.

good post.

life and family are more important than the flying bug.

I am going to buy a high tech computer and install a simulator.

who want pay me to fly my sim?:E

@practicallybroke - I'm very sorry to hear your sad cautionary tale. You're not alone mate. There are many, many people in your position. I know it's no consolation. I shall send you a PM with my further thoughts. As for the actual question you posed, I think others have answered it with more insight than I can offer you.

@WWW - Well done for making this a sticky thread. It should be read by all people considering entering the aviation industry.

I am new to this forum and reading a number of these threads has been an eye opening experience.


I wonder how many of us as young children had dreams of being a pilot? For the lucky few these dreams actually become a reality, but for a significant number we are left looking at our model aircraft dangling from the ceiling and having to make other decisions about our futures.


My thoughts regarding your post is first and foremost ‘Health!’ Sit down for a minute and take a deep breath. What is this burning ambition doing to you health wise? From your posts it appears that your desire to become a professional pilot is ruining your life and I have to ask, “Is it worth this?”

It would be great if you could fulfil this ambition but try to be realistic and think about you as a person and what is happening to you.



Have you really thought about what else you might want to try? What is it that might take the place of flying?



Have you perhaps considered applying to any of the cruise lines? This is an industry that is recruiting, I have no idea about their terms, conditions or pay, but you will see the world, and possibly be able to put money in the bank and maybe keep up the flying, but in the meantime you will be exploring the World and maybe even enjoying yourself?



This is just one option that you might want to dismiss but please, please think about other careers as life is way too short and we all only get one bite at it. You are at present letting life go by and in the meantime you are making yourself ill

Good luck with whatever decision you make