Cost Comparison of Integrated Courses
 

With the selection of true CAA approved Integrated ATPL courses in Europe limited to only 5 why is there such a variance in price.

CabAir £65K
PTC £67.5K
OAA £77K
CTC £71K
FTE £81

Now these prices do include all exam fees and accommodation but there is still such a big difference between 65K and 81K. Is FTE that much better than CabAir or is it just a rip off considering you come out with the same qualification at the end of it all.

From what I can work out the top three do the flight training in the US, CTC in NZ & FTE Jerez.

Anybody got any thoughts?

Your figures are wrong Charlie. I clearly explained to you in this post that CTC would cost at a minimum, £80,000 without any additional (but necessary) fees but £95,000 was more realistic after costs. The £71k CTC charge is only the cost of the iCP course which you would be foolish to choose over the Wings course, which is 2 grand less at £69,000. Additionally, iCP has less benefits (no AQC (JCC, MCC etc.). It costs more, and then after you have your fATPL, costs even more money as you take out another 30,000 loan for a type rating. Whatever course you choose, you will have to pay the 17,400 $NZ for the foundation flying course add £10,000 onto anything CTC tells you. YOU HAVE TO PAY THIS, THERE IS NO CHOICE! So now were closer to £79k for ground school/flight training alone, no retests, holidays, shoes, socks, license issue fees, medicals and I am sure you will drink the odd beer in 2.5 years.

What is the point of asking for more opinions if you had ignored the advice given to you anyway, even worse, you have ignored the facts.

As to which is the best school, monetary figures are probably fairly irrelevant (do Cabair provide accommodation?). The top 3 will all work out costing the same, PTC and Cabair will probably cost the same Nobody is going to be able to give you a decent answer. People will always argue either way

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the responses GGG, i'm not ignoring advice at all I understand that there will be living costs on top I was just trying to look at the course cost cos my living costs are going to be the same whereever I am.

The prices I quoted included accommodation costs + exam fees as I said, the base price of the courses is slightly different. I have added the basic accommodation options on where necessary and exam fees.

Medical cert, and various other unavoidable unpackaged costs, such as type rating, (I'm hoping not to have to pay this as I don't agree with P2F but this may not be avoidable) I understand will add to the overall price, but are going to be the same whichever course I choose.

I go back to my original question and ask why there is such a difference in the cost of the courses when you get the same qualification at the end.

GGG thanks for mentioning the NZ Foundation Flying Course cost, this is the sort of thing I'm looking for, I need to ask about this and will next time I speak to them.

Cheers

And go modular, and it will cost you 35K, do the maths or just be brainless!:ugh:

FTE's fees used to include food as well as accommodation. Don't know if it still does.

Also FTE is priced in Euros and the Euro/Sterling exchange rate is pretty pathetic at the moment.

even more pathetic when you discover you will finish unemployed with your nice blue book!!!:E

Another constructive comment from Captain S.

:D

Just want to confirm CTC costs as I'm starting with them on the 25th April and this is applicable to the Wings Cadet course.

Security Bond - £69,000
Foundation training cost - £8400 (Approx)
Recommended living allowance - £10000
Fees/medical/insurance - £2800 (fees are for legal charge if using BBVA as a funding source)

This doesn't include any exam/test costs.

If placed with a partner airline who recognise the bond system (eg Easyjet) the £69,000 bond will be paid back to the cadet, monthly, over a 7 year period. In effect this brings the course cost down to approx £24000.

Not quite pipersam. If EZY pay you that back over 7 years, you can expect a reduced salary to go with it i.e. I'm pretty sure you'll still only be getting the equivalent, at best, of a non-cadet FO's net income each month - it's just yours will be split into a 'cadet salary' and part of your £69k 'repayment'.

You end up paying one way or another!

'pipersam' Can you explaing a little more ?

Regardless of how you pay it back, at least this way there is some hope that your repayments will be met until you move onto bigger and better things.

Consider CabAir - They are highly unlikely to go to the lengths that CTC go to, to find employment for you (this is in no way a criticism of the quality of CabAir's training, on which I am unable to comment) and after visiting both CabAir and CTC, I know which FTO I would want to train with. £1100 per month doesnt come easily!

Pipersam - I think you will find that CTC DO cover your exam and test fees. They just won't cover you for resits, as far as I am aware.

MagicTiger - Go modular. Then enjoy the struggle for a job when you find yourself up against experienced FOs / ex-RAF / an integrated course graduate who has the benefit of course structure behind them. The extra £40,000 might seem a bit much for a bit of structure and some career support (and TR if you're lucky..), but can you really put a price on improving your employability in a harsh job climate like this?

Still, I won't go into the whole Integrated vs Modular thing, I think there is enough info to read on it within PPRuNe to last anyone a few years...

Do Ezy actually recognise the " bond " anymore given that all their cadets are flexi crew and therefore only paid by the block hour? I don't think they do. So it won't reduce the price at all. It never did anyway really as you were paid a reduced salary to go with the bond repayment. Plan for the thick end of 80k whatever happens.

I completely understand this, and yes your right, the salary will be roughly equal to a "non-cadet" FO salary including the bond repayment, I was purely stating the course costs without taking any salary information into account.

What would you like me to explain?

Yes you are right, I've just checked my terms and conditions. CTC cadets will only have to pay for JAA CPL/IR license issue.

What allowances do people make for the post-training period where (a) up to 6 months (or in some cases longer) is spent treading water in the CTC swimming baths, and (b) during the initial 8 months effectively spent as a CTC contractor on £1,200 net?

Wherever you're posted (probably abroad), the cost of living plus loan repayments is obviously going to far outweigh CTC's pocket money. I know this (strictly speaking) doesn't fall under the training cost category, but I'm certainly planning for upwards of six figures by the time I can finally stand on my own two feet.

Wrong, I could take another 35000, buy a TR and 500 hours line training + 12 months guaranteed paid job on 737, that would leave me with 1000 to 1500 hours on type, with that I know 99% sure I could job in Europe.
Total would cost me 70.000, salary during 12 months would be 30.000 to 50.000 euros, expenses for 1.5 year would be around 18.000, but I will be lower end experienced Fo, and still it would have cost me less then intergrated, and I would be much more employable!

Hey mates, does anyone know if the CTC course include accomodation? I was almost sure they told me so when I first went there this last summer but now seeing the "living allowance" (worth 10K) I'm not entirely sure. Does it refer to direct costs for accomodation or just what they expect you to pay for your living costs such as food or transport?

PS: My first post, from Barcelona btw :ok:

Hi vikdream! I hope the weather in BCN is warmer than it is over here!

To answer your question, yes CTC cover all accomodation during the training course. During the initial training in Southampton you will house share with the other cadets. I think some also stay at their training "mansion" in Dibden. Then out in New Zealand you get to stay in their dedicated accomodation block "Clearways". Then it's back to house sharing in Bournemouth for the IR stuff.

The £10,000 is what is recommended by CTC for food/drink/social activities. You may spend more or less than this. I'm certainly hoping to spend a lot less than this and use the saved money towards my Type Rating.

Hi pipersam, that's exactly what I thought! :ok: and yes, the weather is fantastic here, it feels like we are having no winter!

As for the living allowance money, I think you are right, and taking into account you are given accomodation facilities, you shouldn't be spending more than 400 hundred pounds a month. I don't take it as an extra cost though, because I have to pay for it as well while I'm living at home - well my parents do at the moment I'm afraid :* -.

77.000 pounds, considering other European flight schools - and I'm talking basically about Spain, I think it's good value for money. It includes fees and accomodation, first class training, TR? - I think for some airlines it does - and, eventually, a job. Some schools around here - and I'm talking about the best ones - offer the course for not much less than that, less flight time, poor quality and no job placements.

Pipersam, would you mind to PM me about you interviews and that? I'm currently at uni in Barcelona but I want to start with the CTC as soon as I finish it. How long did the whole process take? Did you find it difficult? (Do you think it would be harder for a non-native English speaker?). If you have the time - and when you have it - I would be so grateful.

Bests

EDIT: I forgot to ask... Does the price include flight tickets to/from NZ to London? :rolleyes:

Yes the price includes all air travel.

The best advice I can give you is to refer to the CTC thread in this part of the forum. It has a wealth of knowledge from which I referred too, and it helped me prepare for the selection.

Language shouldn't be a problem at all, your English seems perfect to me from your writing. I believe they will require you to pass an English test but I would imagine that this is very basic and you will fly through!

Best of luck in the future!

If you check on their website in the faq section you should get the answers you are looking for regarding what is included within the price.

RNAVapproach: I checked on it and I didn't find any answers to these questions... plus I went there this summer - i lived in london for a while - and I forgot to mention it... my fault.

Pipersam: Thanks for the info, enjoy your expierence and good luck!

Let's see what people can tell us about the other integrated courses :ok:

Seriously guys, but you should have your heads examined.

Why would you want to pay around 2/3 more then you can do it modular?

I know the colour brochures with jets on them might look more attractive, I know few Oxford guys, and the only jobs they are getting is with RYR and EZY, where they pay another 30.000 to 35.000 on top of their course, the same goes for CTC!

So there is no golden advantage, of paying the premium price, but I guess if you have little life experience it is easy to believe what you get spoon fed during the big FTO's sales pitch.

Here is a bit of advice, do the maths, assume you will not get a job for 3 to 5 years as a pilot, assume you have to pay for TR or FIC, and then see if you can afford to pay it every month working on minimum wages until you get a chance. Not sure mummy and daddy would help you with these if they knew the whole truth, not just the garbage from the nice advert!
Get a brain, and use it, if not you will end up in a one way street where you can not get out! You will have so massive debts, that if you do get offer of a job, you will have no money for your TR?

BoeingDreamer,

That isn't the whole story though is it? Airlines are generally not much interested in pilots with 250 hours. The only exceptions (as few as they are) is in those airlines who operate "cadet schemes." Where those schemes are operated, they are usually in partnership or affiliation with one of the major training providers, through one of their integrated schemes.

In recent years, the wholesale collapse in recruitment has resulted in a scarcity of jobs for people coming through these schemes such that many do not get taken up by the airline customers, either at all. or on the terms they might have hoped for. Despite this, there are signs that things are starting to improve. Of course it is anybodies guess, how sustained this limited recovery might be, but nevertheless it is what it is.

I am afraid that the simple truth is, 250 hours and a licence, is simply not going to excite interest from almost anybody other than those who operate cadet schemes. Those schemes will set a standard that includes a recognised and afflilated full time course of approved training.

The "cadets" that I do and have flown with, are all sourced from this route. None are modular trained licence holders. Obviously there is nothing stopping somebody who has been trained through any route obtaining employment at "airline" level, but not with 250 hours!

Historically there have always been "fast track" cadet schemes in some small measure. Where they existed, they always recruited from or in conjunction with "approved" full time recognised courses. What used to be termed the "self improver" route required at least 700 hours for licence aquisition and considerably more for the experience levels required for airline employment. The reduction in hours required for licence issue has changed little for "integrated/approved" courses. However it has dropped from 700 hours to around 200 hours for "modular/non-approved" licence issue. This was to bring the sysytem more into line with that that existed in other countries, where the licence was viewed more as a basic "aerial work" licence, rather than an airline pilot qualification. This caused many hopefuls to think that airlines might realign their requirements from experience measured in the thousands, to a simple 200 odd hours. It didn't!

So yes, you are right in the sense that "modular is cheaper" it usually is, and always has been in its historic guises. However for the sort of "fast track" that many people aspire to (and certainly relatively few will achieve,) only these integrated programmes will be suitable. However if 250 hour airline employment is where somebody (however ambitiously) has set their sights, then there are very few games in town, and I am afraid "go modular" isn't one of them.

My personal few is that relatively few successful pilots who completed an integrated ATPL would post on this particular forum. This is partly because those following a DIY modular approach are more likely to use an online resource such as this. Primarily though I suspect that relatively more of those following an integrated approach are now in employment and have no reason to read this forum.

Apologies for continuing the modular vs integrated debated, but a lot of those on the forum who can't find a job did a modular course. When I compare this the 3 or 4 friends who have successfully become pilots, they all did an integrated course.

Not the whole picture, but personally I take a lot of what I read on here with a pinch of salt.

BoeingDreamer,

As the above have said, the cadet schemes offer arguably the best opportunity and route for aspiring pilots with little or no experience. Intergrated students are currently getting offered heavily subsidised TR's through airline placement programs, albeit without many permenant contracts being signed at present as I understand it, but this is clearly better than nothing. Attaining this is something that is impossible for the modular student as I understand it. The only option available is to self-finance or take a loan for the full cost of a type rating. Subsequent employment for a 250hr modular student is still (according to the posters on this forum) virtually impossible at the moment, though hopefully this situation will change when the market inevitably picks up again.

I am sure that yardmaster has hit the nail on the head with his last post.

......I can see this turning into a modular vs ? debate........

It amuses me how much ignorance there is.
Yes Bealzebub, you are correct, and you have valid points, not disagreeing with you.

I have currently done MCC/JOC course at Oxford, met SEVERAL guys from there who finished 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 months ago, and they told me that most of the students in their class did NOT HAVE ANY JOBS, they NOT EITHER HAVE ANY PROSPECTS for jobs, unless they applied for RYR or EZY, but many could not afford the money to get into those programs, that meant another £30.000 + +, after already have spent £70.000 - £80.000, just to get basic, CPL/ME/IR and MCC/JOC.

That is the reality!

you will probably be 1 in 1000 getting a job directly after Oxford with an airline, where you do not have to pay your own TR on top of the training.
RYR don't care if you are modular or integrated, if you are good enough, you are good enough.

Let's do a quick rewind, being devils advocate here.
You spend all that money, end up with licences, very low hours, very little experience, and the only chance you get a job is that you pass a proper airline assessment, then part with another £35.000 for TR/and costs, to get a job with RYR.
And you will not get into RYR just because you have the money, competition is even hard to get in with them, they can pick and choose who they want at the moment.

Now if I spent the SAME MONEY, as you do with integrated, but chose to use the money example the Eagle Jet program, 737 TR + line training + 12 months contract with company for line training, I would end up with less cost total, I would have around 1100 - 1500 hours on a 737, and it would cost less then the integrated.

So having done it this way, with say 1200 hours on a 737, total 1500 hours, or an integrated student with 200 hours, who will have the best chance to get a job?

The modular going this route will have spent LESS money, then the integrated, and will have many more chances to get a job.

Modular with hour building approx. £35.000 + £35.000 for TR and 500 hours line training, then you get 12 months work, paid with free housing (EJ offer this) - say you get £3.000 a month, that's going to return you £36.000 in around 12 months, and you will have a total of maybe 1200 hours or more on type.

Now you can say it is wrong to pay for TR and line training, but it is equally wrong to think that just because you pay premium Oxford / CTC that you will get a job straight in with the airline.
This is a lie the FTO's have been selling to long. The norm is not getting direct in with the airline as soon as you completed your CPL/IR/ME.

At that stage you are just learning to fly, and you should get more experience, but fast food world, wants things yesterday, and not tomorrow.

My point anyway, is that a modular can spend less money, and be better prepared for getting a job, even though he might have to take an unusual route to achieve this.
It is unfortunate, but that is life, I could not go away for 18 months to Asia because I have family, but others who can, I would say it is a good chance, to get yourself into the front end of the que, being able to get a job.

giggitygiggity - a quick question to you, how much are these heavily subsided TR's costing the students?

Are the students getting the TR's for what price?
Do you know what the price of the TR's are when NOT subsided?

I doubt you will find big difference, it is all SALES PITCH.

RYR is making huge profits on their TR's.
Someone from Oxford told me that EZY TR's would cost around £35.000, and they pay you £1200 a month!

Please don't insult your own intelligence, I know, going to look at Oxford, it all looks so impressive, and I enjoyed the MCC/JOC there, and agree that was good learning experience.
But the rest is the same anywhere, to be honest I am do not regret doing my CPL/IR where I did, I felt I probably had a much better and more personal experience with this, than you will ever get at Oxford, or any other FACTORY like this!

I think your are heavily misinformed!

737 TR, Classic and NG differences, approx.£18.000 to £19.000, this includes base checks.

ba038, it always does and it is probably my fault. The following is provided to help the OP see what the course may cost, not to further any intergrated vs modular debate...

I may well have been misinformed, but I have it on good authority that those who get a cadetship at Easyjet will pay between £8-9,000 for a type rating, which is considerably less than £35,000. On the downside, they are bonded for a period and are on a lower salary than the direct entry F/Os. But then again, they likely have 200hrs as opposed to the 1500 required on a normal application. I am guessing here, but I assumed that £8-9,000 is also the cost CTC charge those placed on a flexicrew contract. According to their stastics, so far this year, ctc have placed 88 students their advanced training programme (JOC/MCC/TR) which is surely very positive news.

I must admit that I am not at all knowledgeable on the OAA APP contract specifics, but as I understand, it's quite different to the terms and conditions offered on a ctc wings training contract. The difference is that CTC offer a cadetship with an airline placement scheme where as OAA do not offer this as such. According to their website, they offer some airline specific schemes with Qantas(?), Flybe and Jetstar, but not a more generic cadetship programme.

I would verify the ctc, but have been told many of the terms via Oxfords programs.

First TR even for 9000, if your salary is 1200 a month, which I heard many Ezy pilots have in their first contracts, you are basically paying of your TR monthly from reduced salary.

As mentioned the raw price for TR is around 18000, your reduced salary is then not worth the difference in pay vs the actual TR cost.

At the moment today, to get placement is rather the exception than the rule, the most likely scenario at this moment is that you spend all that money, and afterwards looking for work at Tesco until things pick up.

Yardmaster, no reason to get upset and all childish, most modular guys have not had someone old their hand all their way, their paths might be different, but leads to the same. I did MCC with an Oxford student, and he was no better or no worse then me.

What I am trying to say is that the odds of getting a job does not justify the extra cost, the money is better spent on alternative ways of getting a job, as explained, which will increase your chances much more.

Having talked to real students from both Oxford and CTC, who completed all, the story is not so great will they try to keep their lives together and get on to the next step.
You are competing now with pilots without TR, but thousands of hours of experience via FIC and other air taxi jobs.
All the instructors I know have more then 1500 hours, and all looking to get airline jobs.

Going intergrated will improve your odds by about 2%, most will still not have a job when finish.

Sorry for the whole modular vs integrated debate starting again.

However I am looking at the situation as more low hour pilot jobs start becoming available.

It is still going to be vastly competitive with lots of applicants going for few roles. Therefore I intend to give myself the best possible oppurtunity of employment by doing an integrated course. That is my personal choice and suits my own circumstances.

Going back to the original post though, PTC does look like good value but a lot depends on additional hidden costs.

Have any recent or current PTC integrated students got any input?

What else can I say, you guys know it all!!!

The dozen or so posts above this one are full of incorrect information. The problem is that the people posting them are confusing Ryanair TR costs with EZ TR and Line Training costs. They are also confusing EZ salary for CTC grads and OAA grads. They are not both paid the same.

The Ryanair TR is 28,500 Euros, not £35,000.

I don't recall the EZ TR price for CTC Wings ATP students, but I think it's very low (£7,000 or so), as are the initial EZ wages. CTC EZ pay is about £1,200 per month for the first half year or so. This is why the TR apparently costs less, but does it really? The TR and Base Training costs are simply buried and concealed in the salary sacrifice. However, since there is no high salary with deductions in the first place, the airline's matching National Insurance contributions are lower and they could pocket this.

Does anyone know of a single CTC EZ Flexicrew that has been based outside of the UK initially? It would appear there is an unspoken restriction against this and the only logical reason I can think of for it is that this is somehow related to UK tax issues that the FOs are completely unaware of. In other words, the airline is getting a tax break. They might be pocketing the advantage (Lower NI and VAT reclamation on the TR perhaps?) as a reduced expense, which increases profit, or they may be passing it off to the Cadet FO in the form of an apparently lower TR cost.

OAA EZ pilots are paid £50 per hour during line training, but they pay £35,000 for the Type Rating, Base Training and Line Training. Their pay goes up when they achieve 500 hours on type. They are Parc contractors, but not Flexicrew. Flexicrew is only for CTC EZ pilots. Some OAA EZ pilots who started about 12-15 months ago are now moving on as permanent EZ employees. This is through permanent positions arising and a competitive selection process and it requires a minimum of 500 hours on type and of course a vacancy.

The Original Poster would do well to locate some graduates from both CTC and OAA that fly for both airlines and get the facts straight from the horses mouth about each scheme. Otherwise, he is likely to end up looking like the other end of the horse.

Unfortunately, it won't be as easy to do this as posting a question on here; quality information is not always easy to get, but you surely had better get quality info before you invest the sums involved.

Although I fundamentally agree with you that Modular + TR and line training is a better choice than integrated for the same cost, I wonder what's this 12 months work after the eagle jet line training you're referring to? Are you immediately assuming you'd get a job? I see nothing on the eagle jet website about a paid position.

Edit* Never mind found it. I assume you mean the line training for pilots with a TR section, where the asian bases option comes with 12month guaranteed employment. Do you have any more details of this? I can't find anything more.

I believe the TR with CTC according to other threads are around £10.000, + add you need to do their prep. course/MCC which I believe is something like £7000.

Now you can get combined MCC/TR - which I have been quoted equals £1300 for the MCC itself.

I have met few guys, very good guys, from Oxford and CTC, and they are all out there looking for work after having spent £XX.XXX's

They have MASSIVE loans to repay, now scenario is like this.

If you lend £70.000 - £80.000, you will have massive repayments to make, soon. You complete your training, and you are not one of the "lucky few" who firstly get selected for a program, or one of the lucky few who can afford and get selected for Ryanair, fact is that you will most likely get NO OTHER flying job, unless you become a FIC. (which by the way pays peanuts)

You finish your program, get the nice blue book, but it becomes useless, you have to factor in another £35.000 (for Ryan Air), yes TR is £28.000 + extras that you will need to have during training period.
How will you live during the TR training or the the training before your line check?

I know from people getting accepted by RYR, there are actually equal amount modular or integrated students. I personally know loads of modular students.

However it seems here there are some people has confirmation bias, they have ONE idea, which might lead them into financial ruin (or lead their parents into it), who just see one colour of the flag, and it is only one way, without considering the consequence of these actions.

All I have been saying here, if you intend to spend this kind of money, there are other ways that will give you better chances for a job.
Which will increase your odds much more to get your first job.

I am not saying Oxford, CTC etc. are bad schools, however having seen Oxford myself during my MCC, I would say there are some pretty good modular schools out there too.
Skills and quality of the people end of the day from what I can see are the same, either way you go.

M1ghtyDuck: I am waiting to hear how a friend of mine is doing, he has gone to Germany to the TR, as the EJ TR company in the UK is fully booked for around the next 4 - 5 months. Then he goes I believe to Indonesia, I believe it is with Lion Air.
I don't have much details about it, he showed me the contract and some details. As soon as you complete your 500 hours you get 12 months employment, he told me the pay was around 3000 -5000 Euro a month, + free place to live.
But you will be away for at least 18 months, during this time you can not leave except if it has something to do with your medical, and flight licence.

For me it is not an option, I have family, it will not suite everybody, and I would NEVER take my family out to Indonesia, been there before, it is not my ideal place to have a family. But if you are young, and without a brain, it is an excellent place to gain some proper life experience. Just be careful with the girls out there, if you think flight training is expensive, they might just cost you more then integrated training costs. (But you don't need TR to date them) :E

Thanks BoeingDreamer. If you don't mind I'll contact you to see how your friend got on? EJ is only a last resort for me if a certain few other things don't work out, but it'll be about a year and a half before I'm in that position anyway so hopefully your friend will be able to tell you a little more about it by then.

Thanks again.

PTC Training
 

PTC will take you from zero hours to (f)ATPL including MCC (no mention of JOC) and give you change from €85,000.

This looks like good value, but does anyone know what track record they have placing graduates with EZ and RYR? Don't much fancy Aer Arann.