Some Positivity
 

Hi all,

I know that things are bad at the moment, globally across many industries and that aviation is particularly easily affected by economic fluctuations.

However, as someone who wants to train to be a pilot and believes that regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found, I can't let all the negative stories dissuade me from what I want to do.

Don't get me wrong, I know it's not going to be an easy ride, I may have to go several years before I am able to get a job.....nor not.

What I'd really like is a bit of balance - to hear some stories of people who've got jobs recently - how they've got them, what their take on things is. Flying is not just about getting into a 737/A320 - there are loads of other flying jobs out there and I just wondered what people can tell about those.

And to the naysayers: you've had your say, I know that I am entering an industry that's not what it once was, but I'm not a naive wannabee - just someone with a positive outlook and a hope that I'll get what for me, is a dream job:8

If you ask people deliberately, to tell you only what you want to hear, you don't really need to ask, do you? :rolleyes:

Bfisk has a point really doesn't he.

However you state:Sorry to be a naysayer but at the moment if you want to fly as a pilot then with no experience there will not be work to be found - unless you have contacts who will help you find a position that would not necessarily be yours by ability and qualifications alone.

Tread carefully on this. Perhaps those stories may persuade you to wait until the wheel has turned a little? It will turn despite all the naysayers - you just have to pick your time - get the time right and you win - get the time wrong and it will take you years to recover financially whilst never achieving your 'dream' - trust me when I say that for many a dream has turned into a nightmare.

Be very careful.


Regards
Exeng

.............One born every minute. If you think its bad now, wait until next year. The whole of Europe is in dwang as deep as it has ever been since WW II and it is set to get much worse as every single European nation cuts back spending.

Why do people keep on thinking the are somehow better than everyone else and that they will be ok.

Don't do it !!!!

If you do, face a life time of financial ruin.

Go fly a helicopter.

They're great fun, proper flying, difficult, expensive and, unless you have hours of experience no one is going to pay for you to fly them so, start saving.

Positive enough?

responding to this from behind a computer somewhere in the south of Derby working on designing round noisy things....2 years after ME-IR/MCC, with 10 years of Aerospace Engineering Systems experience, Flying Instructor experience and over 400h TT

"regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found"

...no there isn't

I was going to write a factual and realist reply but as it's been said a million times before and as you have specifically said you don't wan't to hear it, I won't bother.

Pay your money, do your training, keep taking the disproportionate optimism pills and everything will work out just peachy. How's that for you.

A couple of points of fact:

Not with vacancies, there aren't.

No there isn't. Unless you're including McJobs, but then you could save yourself £70k and do that direct.

hey

when i started my training in 2008, everybody was telling me I shouldn't, that there was no jobs and all. I struggled to get the finances, I had to work full time for months then do a part of my training, work again, come back for training. Result is, I will be done in less than 2 weeks. I have a job opportunity to fly a King Air in July, and last year I was selected as a cadet for an airline, but I refused their offer.

So it's all up to you. I too believe that there is always jobs to be found. You just have to pay attention to what is happening in the industry, make a maximum of contacts, and actively search for a job. Being pessimistic doesn't help.

What I always say to people hesitating to get into aviation is, if it is your passion, think of nothing else and just do it.

Simply put there are jobs out there.

Sadly though mostly they are the ones where you will have to sell your house, your grandmother and your soul to get them if you are a newly minted pilot.

Wait a few years and try again, maybe, just maybe things will be different.

I agree with Jumbo744!

Don't listen to the moaning, constistantly depressing views on here. If people actually listened to you guys about all the doom and gloom there would be no future!

Understand the financial risks and go for it... dont let the b*stards get you down. If you dont get it, who gives a damn, you've probably got less than 50 years to live anyway.

^
Hows that for pessimism PPRuNe!!!??? Am I an accepted member yet?

Pathetic! To categorically say there are no jobs to someone who wants in... Unbelievable, what qualifies you to say that? Do you actually know everything and everyone in aviation?

I think not. Wannabes... do not be deterred! If you want it understand/accept the risks and jump in with both feet flailing.

If nothing comes of it, accept that nothing in life is certain... please, just dont listen to the crap on here! I understand lots of it is good avice, guys... but way to go to put potential pilots off.

I guess its been so long since you've thought whimsically about aviation that you cannot understand how a wannabe feels.

Go for it everyone,

Jobs for everyone, the airways are paved with gold and you will have a bigger bank account than the Maxwell family.

Managers will love you and you will only have to fly twice a month and a maximum of 150 hours a year if you condescend to work at all.

Now, back to the real world.

I know it's tough keeping your chin up when it all looks very gloomy on the job front.

A lot of guys are moving, further up the food chain. This may not mean much for your average low hour pilot now, but it will do. Probably quicker than you might think.

Easy, Aer Lingus, Ryan, Flybe, BMI baby, Thomas Cook will all need pilots within the next 12 mths. Not a guess, but fact.

All have historically taken on low time pilots in the past. The only difference being the pool of experienced pilots waiting to get back in the system.
The jobs will be out there, how you go about getting your CV to the top is a whole different thread.

Good luck to all of you out there waiting on your break.

Rigger Parish
 

Exactly,

Don't listen to anybody on here, that includes you then i suppose. :p

Believe me it's not only the ppl who wants jobs in B737 and A320 that complain.
I've sent my CV to every job I saw (B737, A320 KingAir, even C204 and the likes) and still got no answer. The biggest problem for ppl with low hours is not knowing ppl in the right places. If I knew anyone in the right pplace of course I would have a job already.

Things ARE DIFFICULT at the moment for us, but if this is the dream of anyone... just go for it. It is wonderfull having the controls in your hands. It is addicting though... you'll spend the money you have and more...

Good luck

Good luck servicing those loans!

I'm not going to labour the point because as the opening post demonstrates perfectly, people will only hear what the want to hear. There's a dividing line between realism and optimism - be careful where you draw it.

There are jobs out there, not as many as we'd all like but they are there. Rather than follow the route of the masses and post your CV off to all the same agencies, look around different ones, hang around airfields, if you have the time, and don't forget to talk to as many people as possible.

Remember to stay positive, enjoy life and laugh at 90% of the things that are written on here and you will be OK.

You need to read or ook at OAA website. They tell you the story of whats really happening on the recruitment front. also if you look at 2009 they say they got 16 pilots into netjets. however they did not, because netjet cut 300 pilots and they are not flying for them currently.

OAA.com - Oxford Aviation Academy

On the front of pilot jobs. I know one pilot who got a lucky break as an instructor to air south west this year on the q400. type rating was paid for him as well. I know an another instructor who is still an instructor but doing some aerial photography work on a pa31. another lucky break.

so not much....

flyhighspeed300
 

I wish you would talk to scheduling for me to tell them I shouldn't be flying - would make watching the footie that much easier.

Honestly, some wannabes are deluded.

Jumbo744/RiggerParish

You really think that there are jobs out there ? You really think that by telling wannabes that they should go for it and remain positive then it'll all come out in the wash? So let me get this right, if every wannabe took your advice and trained then they'd all find jobs? In the good times when wannabes were being hired it was estimated that there were about 1200 - 1300 wannabes coming out of the sausage factories every year available for employment at any one time, now that there are "no jobs" do you really think there is a job for all those wannabes? Because essentially that is what you are saying.

If you think this is true then you are seriously deluded and anyone taking that advice needs locking up :ugh:

I think I can be 100% certain that there is a job out there, yes. I dont know how you can all, with the same certainty, say that there are none.

But, hey... I musnt be as clued up as you!

No, that would be foolish advice. If every wannabe understood the risks but still wanted to try for something they wanted... why not give them a little encouragement!

It just bothers me that because things are tough at the moment, that every single person who wants to get involed is told that it is impossible. Well, it is not impossible.

All I was saying was that if you have understood the risks and know that nothing is certain... and you still want to have a go... Go for it with all you got. I cant see how anyone could think that bad advice!

I think the greatest failure is to tell people all hope is lost, and lets face it... if this life wasnt a challenge, I would find more time to argue with people like you.

Deano777, when did they say there would be jobs for everyone? Jumbo744/RiggerParish have said the most useful things on this thread in my opinion. They didn't say go into it with your eyes closed and just hope for the best did they? Jumbo744 claims he has a job offer and turned a Cadet Course down, this would have to prove there are jobs? Also flighhighspeed300 had heard of jobs.

They way I see it wannabe's need an attitude somewhere between the rosy sales talk at flight training exhibitions and the severe negativity of PPRuNe.

You can lock me up if you want but there may be a way to escape.

lander66, thank you.

I think there is nothing more to add to what RiggerParish said.

I never said that there are jobs for everyone, but I think that if you get into aviation with the right mindset, you have a good chance. You need to be positive and realistic (as with everything in life).

It is also a matter of life philosophy. I am the kind of person that prefers to take the risk and try rather than stay at home and think "maybe i should have".

Deano777, it's like you are telling wanabees : "there is a chance you don't make it so don't try it's too dangerous!!", with this kind of attitude, why try anything in life?

aztec2008
 

congrats on your Single IFR pilot job. I am finishing my IFR training and boy it must be exhausting to be single pilot IFR!

I really like those 2 last advices you wrote. I had made a list and they were in it. My list to succeed (well as i imagine it, as I have not succeeded yet lol):

- Stay Positive
- Be passionate
- Be aware of what is happening in the industry
- Get some aviation culture (airlines, their ceos, their routes, their fleet, differentiate between aircraft models, know your geography, etc...)
- Don't make ennemies
-Don't get cocky and arrogant because your instructor tells you you're good
- Always try to have a very professional attitude and image
- Be helpful to other students/pilots and don't mock them when they fail exams, flight tests
- Most importantly, make contacts and maintain them!!

- And again and again and again, enjoy your life and the time you spend in the air!!!

I've nothing against inspiring and encouraging people, but it's got to be done with at least one eye on the real world. Some of the 'encouragement' posted on this thread is more like self-delusion.

For starters, lines such as:

or:

Are either grade 'A' wind-ups or staggeringly naive.

At the risk of being accused of negativity, you might like to pop down to my crew room. Of 20 cabin crew at my base, no less than 4 are CPL/IR holders who are unable to find flying jobs. You won't hear many success stories at the moment because there aren't many. My airline is a major recruiter of low-hours pilots, and the only people we have taken on in the last 18 months have been two courses of sponsored cadets who were already in the training system when the balloon went up. That's it, and that really is a fact. Compare that with requirement for 10-15 new FOs per month prior to the banking crisis and multiply those numbers across the industry. Then consider that the flying schools have been churning out hundreds more CPLs in that time, and you might start to appreciate the scale of the problem.

And as for:

Oh really? I work for one of the above, and my best guess is that IF the economy improves, and IF no other airlines go bust, we MAY have a need for limited recruitment next winter. And those are two pretty big 'if's. If the economy goes the other way, I wouldn't be surprised to see any or all of the above laying people off at the end of the summer season. Then again, what would I know?

I note that some of the most 'negative' posts are from people with direct experience of working in this industry. What some of you see as negativity, others – including myself – see as a daily reality.

#You got to have a dream ... else how you gunna have a dream come true?
 

Probably they don't WANT it enough :}

Just to add a 'realistic' two penneth.

Many years ago I was working in the helicopter industry when a flood of mail arrived at the company from various sources almost 'begging' to fly the companies big shiny gas turbine powered helicopters. Helicopter licences being what they are are far more expensive and difficult to obtain than fixed wing licences hence the potential debt level for 'dedicated' students is higher.

The company, when faced with such a cheap revenue source consulted the CAA, found nothing illegal and accepted a bunch of Co-Pilots on scandalous terms and conditions. Not particularly surprising.

This led to 'normal' co-pilots getting sidelined, friction in the crew room between the various groups and an astronomical increase in work load for the Captains as we were continually flying with newly rotated 'fresh outta the box' co-pilots. As you have never flown in the commercial environment I would not expect you to realise how difficulty it is to negotiate pay increases in those conditions. Suffice to say the T's & C's within the company crashed.

I left and joined an airline. Now I see the same thing happening here. The world of the helo has started to pick up as companies recognise the benefit of experience and loyalty. The airline industry has yet to see that. Hopefully the Colgan Air disaster will highlight some of the pressures that Junior CREWS (yes Captain and Co-Pilot) have to live with but it will be years before any benefit is felt in the industry.

Where does this leave Wannabees?

Two problems. There are no jobs at the moment. The airline I work for has tentatively hinted at possible recruitment of 150 at the end of 2011. They will need to be experienced type rated direct entry pilots. Lowest training cost/risk possible. After that? The company has no plans as expansion has been put on hold again against the spectre of a double dip recession.

The other problem is the abject animosity against pay-2-fly within the industry. Something that BALPA need to and I believe now are getting a grip on. Irrespective of your motives for taking that route there are many within the industry who see it a slavery and that the person with the best potential doesn't get through but the person with the deepest pockets.

Having a realistic outlook on the industry is essential. None of my friends and colleagues who work for various big companies around the world see a pickup in recruitment. Orders for aircraft may be in but those aircraft will dribble online over the next 20 years. The industry is under attack from the green lobby, the tax man and Governments who have ill thought out transport policies.

So, enjoy your IR. Try and refrain from posting 'everything rosy, go for it with all your heart if that your lifes dream, everyone else doesn't understand' posts. The industry from the ground up is dire at the moment. Hopefully in a couple of years it will pick up again, no one knows. But always remember that most major airlines have gone bust in the 18 months FOLLOWING a recession.

This shows your slightly naieve outlook! When you have been doing the job for 25+ years you will find you have great days and awful days. For example, prior to the ILS being fitted to both ends of Sofia's bumpy old runway (now a taxiway thankfully) the night non precision approach was atrocious. After the first attempt which had to be thrown away due to GPWS proximity warning on the 7500' mountain to the south of the city the second attempt was rougher than a dockers chat up line. Certainly not an enjoyable experience but I was being paid to do it.

I like the Nike slogan: "Just Do It!".

To OP: If that is your dream and you are ready to do it no matter what it takes, you must follow your destiny. I wish you good luck.

Rigger & Jumbo

I read that you didn't actually say there were jobs for everyone but if you take your post in context, and then understand completely that you are spouting on a forum of desperate wannabes then you have a wide audience, this wide audience as I said before could, and maybe does equate to 1200 - 1300 fATPL wannabes at any one time, and that is just the UK, if each and every one of those plus the people who are looking to train to keep that figure alive start training because you are giving crap advice then there is going to be a hell of alot of disappointed and broke people out there. Even in the height of recruitment it is estimated that only 200-300 brand new wannabes obtain employment per year. This leaves alot of people who will never gain employment.
You can stay as positive as you like.
You can network as much as you like.
You can be as passionate about the industry as you like.
You can be as clued up about the industry as you like.
You can be as professional as you like.
You can be as helpful as you like.
If there are no jobs, then there are no jobs, if there are only a few jobs, then there are only a few jobs. This won't change, so if, and I say if all the wannabes did this then there will still be alot of very, very disappointed and broke people out there.
Also what alot of wannabes fail to understand is that your 150hr/200hr CVs are almost all identical, if they were to put them all on a wall and throw darts in 20 of them (or most of them) they would all be the same. Nothing distinguishes one person's CV from the other, and this is generally why alot of people do not obtain jobs. In an interview do you think sitting opposite a chief pilot who has thousands of jet/turbo prop hours is going to be impressed with your "30hrs" twin MEP time? He's not going to give a monkey's dollop, do you think he'll be impressed with your 200hrs total time including the said 30hrs MEP and 20hrs IFR sim time? He's not going to give a monkey's dollop. Herein lies alot of the problem, but if there are little or no jobs, then there are little or no jobs.
Another thing you read on here is alot of people advising people to "follow your dream", "if you want it hard enough it'll happen". That's the biggest load of horse manure I've ever heard, it won't happen just because you "want it".

Now you have, whether you meant it in the context or not, advised all wannabes to go for it, work hard and understand the "implications", that's fine, but can you not see how many disappionted people there will be? When I got hired it was in the height of the recruitment boom, now all the people I had networked, studied and trained with, which was about 45 or so people, only 6 of us got jobs. Does that not tell you a story?
I am not being negative, I am being realistic, as are the majority of "negative" people on here, yet you construe that as bad advice, thats fine and that's what these forums are all about. To me though, telling the masses it's ok to train as there are "jobs" out there is a little deluded.

D777

maybe what he meant by this was loads of other TYPES of flying jobs out there, and wanted to hear from anyone that had found work in a non-airline role?

not every wannabe is looking to fly a 737/a320... :hmm:

Not a lot to add, save that people do often - for some reason - think that those who went before "just didn't work hard enough at it" and that they can therefore succeed where others have failed (or are still trying) by "working a bit harder".

To provide some form of context, on my course, the class JAA ATPL average was 95% across the 14 exams. Can you do much better than that? I doubt many people can, but even if you can score 96/97/98 or even better % - does that substantially differentiate you? No. Many of our course got first time or first series passes in both CPL and the IR. Can you do better than that? No.

The truth is there just are not [many] jobs around at the moment and there's 20 of us chasing every single one that DOES get out. The ONLY way to get a job really at the mo, is to know the person who is hiring.

A lot of people wibble on about the fact that there ARE other types of flying jobs out there ...but the truth is - and welcome to reality here guys - that unless you are very very wealthy, you need to work to live and the kind of salary these jobs pay is so small as to make the job virtually impossible to take. And that's if you have no debt. If you do have debt, forget it, because you'll be living in a cardboard box and unsafe to fly within weeks.

I'm not kidding you - I'm one of the lucky ones, In that I had a very good career to fall back on. 18 months later and I'm still flying a desk, but at least I still have my house and no debt. You need oodles and oodles of timing and luck to get on in this game as WELL as the other factors such as desire. Do NOT underestimate that. Or if you do, make sure you very well understand the lifelong implications of financial meltdown.

It IS a dream and I would generally encourage people to go for it (PPRuNe IS very negative) but do not underestimate just HOW lucky you're going to have to be to get a job in the current market, competing against HUNDREDs of others in the same boat. Advice by the likes of G-SXTY here is invaluable - heed their words, because they know of what they speak.

Hi all,
I find it quite interesting amongst all of the doom and gloom on these forums that people often speak of these 'very few' airline jobs that are out there, obviously there must be some low hour cadet pilots that were fortunate enough to be selected so i wonder what it is about them that distinguishes them from others and allowed them to get the job? As said previously most of the CVs sent in are the same, so why was that 1 guy out of however many selected??
As a 'deluded' wannabee myself, i would love hear off any cadet pilots who managed to get a job fairly soon after training as there is evidence that it has happened in a few cases and i am simply wondering why I cant be one of them myself as i so often read.
Cheers

I know 1 guy, hired by monarch airline 5 years ago with 200h.
well, a guy told me,...

all you hear, it' s only rumors from someone who knows someone who know someone,...!
I don't believe in rumors...

ollywood

You're right, there are quite a few who have jobs, because they are prepared to enroll on these wonderful, lovely P2F schemes that are becoming the bane of the industry, unfortunately a fair few years ago paying for your own type rating was becoming the industry entry standard, now it is these ghastly schemes.

What about Ryanair, there you only pay for your typerating, do you also clasify that as a "ghastly scheme"?

I have been training for the last year and within the last 8 months there has been 6 people from my flying club that have been successful in gaining employment as an F/O within a UK airline and only one of those has been to ryanair...however it is all down to who you/they know! So the lesson I have taken from that is start making friends.

oh and none of them are on 'pay to fly'

I think some of the criticism here is a bit unjustified - a lot of it's based on the idea that those searching for advice or positive information on jobs are starry-eyed types who've mortgaged their parents' home to get through Oxford or CTC. The same criticisms don't necessarily apply to those who are completing their training without going into debt and with solid alternative employment. The two low hour types I know personally who have got jet jobs both got them through hanging around bars and talking to crew at smaller airports/airfields.


As a declaration of interest, I'm one of those fools soldiering through the pipeline at the moment, though without a penny of debt and at a pace liable to have me finish in 2012. If I don't manage to get a job, I have a solid career I can continue in and the skills learned will stand me in good stead. All I will have lost is cash I would probably have blown on high living anyway, there being more chance of walking into the RHS at BA on 200h than there is of being able to afford a mortgage in this country!

You only pay for your rating? Are you sure about that? Maybe a bit more research might no go amiss, and yes that is exactly what I mean by ghastly schemes.

D777

p.s. This is not a Ryanair bashing thread, so lets stick to the topic.

Just thought I would point out that the topic is about people with low hours who recently managed to get a job. Genuine, useful replies are getting lost in the usual batch of negativity and then being criticised afterwards because they are "one-offs" and are not realistic enough to pin your hopes on.

Just some thoughts
 

My best wishes go to anyone following their dream, but make no mistake this is a very hard career indeed to get into. IN many ways I would liken it to being an actor or musician, many people want to do it, few make it. Unlike acting, music etc it is highly cyclical though and timing really is crucial. If you Graduate in a boom you have a far better chance of getting a job than if you hit a trough.

I fly for the same airline as G-SXTY, I can tell you that we are madly busy at present because the company doesn't want to hire anyone in the Summer and have to lay them off in Winter. There is no recruitment on the horizon being talked about here yet but for sure that will change, the big question is when. Personally I certainly wouldn't start training until the green shoots are showing.

My big fear at present is that the new UK Government is planning to cut spending significantly and as flying is a discretionary purchase I am very worried that this may negatively impact things. I really do wish Labour were still in and from a recruitment point of view so should you because they might have averted a double dip recession at the price of a higher national debt.

Desk-pilot