Calling all experienced pilots...we need help!!
 

Like many of you in this forum looking for that first lucrative job let me extend my hand of friendship as like you I am in the same boat which has no destination. As you maybe aware that there is now small but never the less green shoots in a few places across the world. I find myself in hope as ever, but what does blow a hard and heavy blow to my hopes is the amount of people joining these pay to fly schemes. This leading to experienced pilots being turned away because they have too much experience which could only mean that the airlines have taken a liking to pilots who are lining the pockets of these airlines by paying for type ratings and line trainings. I too want a job flying but not at the expense of hurting people in the process, and I find that is what many of us are doing. I don’t care if it’s CAE or Eaglejet or anyone else they are all the same. I have been a loyal member of this website for a few years and have always said that it was this website that helped me during my training and I wish to repay it back by helping some of you.

The truth of the matter is I have nothing. Nothing at all that I could help you with other than my opinions and support. I have travelled at far lengths to try and break into the market. I even thought that by myself having years of experience within aviation from loading bags on to planes to being an operations supervisor for an airline would help. I even thought that becoming an engineer may help. I then did my licence and thought well this must help me prosper. But none of the above have and for this reason I thought that opening this thread would be a good idea for us too all put our minds together and think what we are doing wrong. Surely there are no rules to this thing; some get employed via CV’s and some by picketing outside airline offices.

I until now have sent 1300 C.V’s , followed them up with phone calls, travelled the length of the UK stopping at every airport, took a flight to Africa and pitched my tent for 2 months, returning to the UK to resend my 1300 C.V’s and travelled the length of the UK to see if things have progressed.

This thread is not only for the benefit of myself but is also for you. I would openly like to invite our seniors/experienced pilots to share with us what else we could do to bear fruit.

So the question for this thread to our experienced pilots is what are we to do with our licences?
I am sure this has been covered a number of times but what I would like to do is draw new light on this matter from a new angle.

Kash360

Kash,

I've posted this elsewhere but here goes...heres a classic example of why me fighting for the pilot cause by avoiding P2F is killing my own employment chances which I have been chasing now for two years since completing my fATPL training.

Last year I had the choice between an A320 type rating with a popular and respected TRTO or the ATP P2F A320 TR + 150 line hours scheme. I went for the bare A320 TR with a TRTO who have an excellent record holding on to my morals and thinking their airline links would get me somewhere.

At this point in time, the TRTO have no relationship with any airline for newly type rated folk. My emails get ignored and when I speak to the guy who sold me the course its like "what do you want me to do?" (fair enough). So look where my morals have got me? I know of many who went through one of these courses and have now received paid flying contracts some even are in perm positions taking home £4k per month.

Let's face it, pilots being human beings are just as capable of being selfish bastards, jumping the gun in order to further their own. It's the world we live in now.

So tell me, what should someone like me do?

Superpilot - I am sorry for you, and Kash for that matter.

Buy to other out there, take heed of superpilots experience. NEVER buy a type rating without a firm job offer, and by firm rock solid, set in steel re-enforced concrete.

A TR without lots of experience is worthless, airlines will still probably put you through their own TR, and line training etc.

I'm in the same position. I'm lucky to have a flight instructor job, and it keeps me current, but I get like 150 hours a year and it will take me 8 years to hit the current required experience of the airlines (not the money requirement, luckily some still require experience). I have a job outside aviation, and I am happy with that.

I consider paying for a TR with no contract signed for an airline just as "pay-to-fly" as paying for a TR+line training. I mean, what is the difference? You are not getting paid to fly, and it is wrong. I stretched it far enough by paying for the FI-course myself, which after 1,5 years of instructing I have received about half the cost back. And that is one of the cheapest "pay-to-fly" schemes you can enter.

My plan is to live my life as it is right now, and don't worry about the future. I'll keep those licences current (cheap since I don't have a TR), and wait for the time where my graph of increasing flight time hits the graph of required total time of the airlines. If this happens by reduced requirement because of increased pilot demand or me hitting the current requirement, only time can tell :)

The airlines can afford to pay pilots what they deserve, we are just not giving them the opportunity to do so. First step must surely be to refuse pay-to-fly schemes?

You are doing nothing wrong Kash, its just a dire market out there at the moment, dont beat yourself up about it, there are many in the same position inc myself.

With your Ops experiance have you explored ops jobs? foot in the door and back in aviation were you can keep your ear to the ground.

Guys,

To be fair, folks were walking into A320 jobs with just the bare rating only a few months before I started. Cockpit4u have had an excellent relationship with a few German and Far Eastern airlines, and Storm Aviation (TRTO now closed) had a similar relationship with other airlines. Things are dead now understandibly.

The other thing is no UK airline at this point in time or indeed in the last 3 or 4 years will give you a job without a type rating - Just try it and tell me otherwise. I'm afraid for the vast majority of us, a CPL/ME/IR is absolutely worthless unless you have connections or are extremely lucky. The whole system is in breakdown. The traditional method of recruitment whereby airlines invite new pilots to apply for positions, put them through a fair assessment and hire them accordingly just doesn't exist anymore.

Airlines have no reason to be interested in pilots who they cant get onto the line within a week or two and save £20k. Reality is, any employer would juice the cost of the TR through reduced salary and/or bonding any way. From this point of view I stand by my decision to do the rating.

I've said it before and I'll gladly say it again. Our senior pilots (those with bargaining power through BALPA) have outright failed to protect the job of the pilot. Now the **** is creeping upwards and affecting their own positions directly, they are beginning to realise where they have failed. It's just too late.

Kash,

I am sorry to hear about your troubles. Wow, 1,500 CV's - that's A LOT! :eek:

While I know a few people, who I have met over the years at various stages of my training and who have secured employment as pilot, I know a whole lot of people who have not. Some of them have actually left the industry and even given up. One pilot I spoke to during my training said, "only those, who give up, will fail." Well said.

As I repeatedly said so before here, dishing out CV's randomly, or doing a SSTR, will most likely get you the job ... not. A very few might get lucky, the huge majority will not. Particularly, if you do not have a lot of experience. Being at the right place at the right time might get you the job. Personally, I think all that's a load of crap. I rather prefer taking the bull by its horns and get myself out there instead of sitting at home all day waiting for a phone call or email. What will get you a job is being pro-active and showing a lot of self-initiative. Be there in person! Aviation is a strange industry. You are being watched veeery closely all the time. And judged. By what you say and what you do. Be an alright fella who people like having around and know your stuff a little. From little what I know I can tell you so much, you will be alright.

I have said it here before and I am saying it again, if you do not know someone in the insight be your own boss and kick off at the bottom of the latter, e.g. join a gliding club, maybe a flying club, hang around airfields, find yourself a nonflying job at the airport. Work in the industry. Stay in the industry. Rampie will do, refueler, you name it. It's common practice in Canada, for example, to start off as a loader before you get a sniff at flying the damn thing you load every day! I would not recommend doing a FI rating these days because you would need a student to pay for your services...

In late summer 2008, I finished my training and have had nine interviews with GA outfits and airlines respectively. I got those interviews either by word to mouth or by constantly checking on respective websites and before sending out my CV by calling their chief pilot and making my name and voice known (verbal communication plays a huge role in determining sympathy or antipathy). Some of my applications went successful, some not. It's a numbers game but do increase your chances to win. Since I came out of flight school I have sent out about 35 CV's. I started off flying a 172 for peanuts. Admittedly, I got lucky as I knew a guy who had flown for the outfit I began flying with back then. But I know some of my friends would not even look at it, as it is not a jet job and therefore, in their eyes, not an opportunity... True. As sad as it is.

I refuse to believe that there's no jobs out there. There is. Just look harder and wiser.

Best of luck!!!

Some very good advice there Stefair:ok:

It's all about luck and timing and you've had neither so far. Your problem is not so much P2F, as it is the fact that you're in the UK which is probably the country on earth worst affected by this economic recession thing at the moment. You could send a million CVs and get the same result because there are simply no jobs going right now except for a few P2F shaftings - and those aren't even real jobs they're just tools that some lo-cos are using at the moment to try to get the rest of the workforce to accept lower T&Cs. They'll be the first ones to park airplanes when the economic recovery comes though :mad:

Good times will roll round again for aviation employment, but not for a looong time, most forward thinking employers are looking at the 3 to 4 year time frame before they need to hire again. Virgin Atlantic and Thomson when they had to make redundancies last year, have sent about 100 of their pilots on 3-year fixed term contracts to Qatar Airways rather than sack them outright - they still have retained their seniority with their UK employers. Netjets Europe did a similar thing, they put several hundred of their pilots on a 4-year part time contract working year on year off. Of course that means all these furloughed guys will be returning to the work force before you existing batch of wannabes get a look in.

And of course just looking at the chaos at BA this week I think that there will be no jobs there for a veeery long time :(

So yeah mate I hate to say it but you are basically screwed for the foreseeable, I don't know what happened for you in Maun but you might have to head back there next summer and the summer after that before anything positive happens at home.

All I can suggest is STAY CURRENT on something - anything - even if it's piston singles and a quick whirl in a king air sim every few months - and keep thinking outside the box, you're obviously prepared to travel the world and take anything you can get so I'm quite confident you'll suddenly get your lucky break.

And remember ... it's always darkest just before the dawn :ok:

Afternoon all,
Firstly allow me to thank you all for participating on this thread. I do strongly believe that experience teaches allot, hence me asking all experienced pilots to share their views on this thread. Secondly I could not agree more that we as a whole must shy away from these pay to fly or SSTR schemes. However much we would like to fly it should not be at the cost of destroying future generations.

I do to a certain degree comprehend and agree on the view that within the UK it would be very unlikely to secure a position without paying for a type rating. However I believe that this must be done in the form of a bond, and not in the hope of securing a job once you have gained your type rating.

As many of you may be aware I have recently returned back to the UK after spending 2 months in Maun and Zambia, my accounts of my trip were shared on this website. The concept of my thread was to show newly qualified pilot as myself the darkness that prevails after one has attained his/her licence. I am certainly not one of those guys who will sit at home waiting for food to fall on his plate, but have demonstrated that it is necessary to go out and find your own food wherever that may be in the world.

I have tried and will carry on trying to try and find the Holy Grail, but at what cost? I have applied to over 400 engineering positions, called every contact in my phone book just to try and get some work. Even after holding a degree in aeronautical engineering and having a licence I do not find myself to be above anyone. I would happily go back to the airport and load bags onto the aircrafts, but even this idea does not seem to shine through.

Hope is certainly one of the best things we have in life, but this quality should not be used to delude ourselves. I will never agree to pay to fly neither would I ever agree to pay for a type rating unless a secure job was offered. I completely agree that the current times we live in are dire, and that they will get better soon. However something’s within our industry do make me feel that we are at the mercy of airlines. For example the likes of Emirates travelling around the world to find cadets when they are fully aware that the world is full of ready to go pilots.

I am not asking for a shinny jet job I’m not asking to fly 747’s or 380’s I’m just asking to FLY but not at any longer at my expense. In today’s climate and please correct me if I am wrong. I find that we have opened Pandora ’s Box only to hit us in the face, for example we opened the doors to Europe and said any job for anyone. But the European airlines are clever and so they should be. They specify that there pilots must speak a number of languages to get a chance with them. Now let’s be honest how many languages do we really know in the UK, not many I suppose.

Anyway I would much appreciate our experience pilots to guide and steer us all in a direction that maybe profitable to us all.

Kash360

There is not much that can be said. You apply for jobs, try to get a foot in the door, try to make contacts and lastly make yourself more attractive to an employer. Other than that there is nothing else. You can be very committed to each of these things such as sending out thousands of CV's, applying for any jobs with operators not just as a pilot, travel the world to meet people in the companies, getting more ratings and experience. You are doing almost all of this.

Some people try to make themselves more attractive by paying for a TR and some take it further and pay for line training. I do not agree with that even a little bit but it does make people more attractive to some companies, that is a fact and those people will be more likely to find employment than you. That is the problem, most people are selfish and if they can they will try to jump the queue, there is nothing that can be done other than legislation making these schemes unlawful. It will not stop otherwise as there will always be someone willing to pay to sit in a jet as there are a lot of stupid people in the world who take a short cut that will ultimately reduce their future career earnings.

It is all about being in the right place at the right time or having your CV land on the right desk at the right time. I think you have been finding the right places but it is just the wrong time and probably will continue to be the wrong time for a while.

I have just been on to the Balpa website to see what campaigns they are currently involved in. Interestingly enough P2F isn't there. They are also boasting that their membership is up to over 9000.

Well if Balpa are listening, there are probably 2000 more members waiting to join your ranks if you tackle this one. The next generation need your support now. Many of us may never need you again. Take it on, advertise the cause and I'm sure new members will swell your ranks to cover the costs. I believe it is the single most important issue facing pilots right now. I'm not interested in a post-mortem of XL airways, I don't care that I have to take my shoes off in the airport and I'm really not bothered that Paddy Power were taking bets on which airline will go bust next!:rolleyes:

And there's your problem. Why on earth should an organization, funded by it's member, care to take on someone else's battle? You have to join ranks first, and then recieve help. It's not the other way around. :ugh:

Naive springs to mind.

There really isn't much more you can do. Sounds like you're trying all avenues. I admire the travelling to Africa to try for a job. Make sure when you do get an interview that you mention that. The fact you tried those lengths will be well looked upon. I was impressed when I read it anyway.

It's an arid desert as far as job recruitment goes at least for first jobs. Make no mistake there are experienced guys who right now would love to know where to turn. Don't beat yourself up that you can't find water in a desert. My advice would be to concentrate on keeping money coming in to keep your licences and ratings alive and accept your job hunt may only develop legs once things start to move.

Please stop it because you are breaking my heart. As admirable as it was reading about your quest for a job on the African continent, this self pitying is just unnecessary and cringeworthy. Instead of signing on and putting even more pressure on the welfare state, why don't you do something really pro active and get a job? Appealing to professional pilots to sort your life out aint gonna work as most of us have far more pressing things to think about such as keeping our jobs, paying union subs and keeping the family warm and fed. Get used to the fact that there are jack all jobs for inexperienced wannabes unless they have got 30k up their sleeve to waste on an expensive theme park ride. Which as we all know is the real problem here. What are you going to put on your next job application? Sat on arse feeling feeling sorry for myself since completing training looks rather naff i'd say? I think they would be far more impressed if you served a bit of time out there working, think about it.

Bit harsh there i think shaun.....after all, i suspect although Kash has just signed on this may be more a short term thing while he can assess his next move maybe in the employment arena ?? i don't know of course but would rather give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.......and after all, with regard to the P2F rot, well that was set in stone long before Kash came along - he now, like many others has to deal with the consequences of the situation, and given his stated desire not to go down that route then i think that is commendable on its own.

As for advice, would love to advise you Kash but i'm not the best to give advice i'm afraid given that i'm a relative newbie to the industry myself (10 years in one form or another) - maybe securing an ops. job, cabin crew, dispatch and networking here for a few years to see if it bears any fruit ?? worked for me but to be fair times were certainly more buoyant a few years ago ! and of course they will be again, just a case of playing the waiting game. There does seem to be the first shoots out in the market regarding recruitment albeit for more experienced guys, have friends that are considering moves and am being told of opportunities that exist, whilst not much help to the new kid on the block, this usually means movement elsewhere and will hopefully lead to a return to recruitment at the lower end of the food chain, again i suspect that is some time off though.

Sorry i can't be much more help !

F/O

Shaun I’m sorry mate, but that’s just harsh, how can comment on being pro active? Kash bloody got of his backside and went out to Maun in search of a job, now that’s commitment, just out of curiosity did you (or would you) go out to Africa in search of a job, put your hand on your heart and be truthful,
He is using his brain, using this site to “network” getting as much help from old experienced pilots as possible, me personally think’s its fantastic what he is doing,
Keep up the hard work Kash it WILL pay off
Anyways
Hope your all having a lovely holiday,
Flyvirgin,

Lukeskytoddler summed it up in the last paragraph. Keep current on anything just to keep yer licenses at least ticking over. UK very poorley hit thats why my location is OEJN and not EGCC.I wish you all the very best, I wish these flying schools integrated ; modular or whatever fancy wrapping you want to call it would not always keep ranting about get your license get a A320 rating or whatever it is and your like 20 years old then you have 45 years on metal and no variation in the career other than flying in JAA land, play with your lives a bit go travelling, work in restaurant work go on a cruise ship play in a band come back to the flying in year or so ..ah well whado I know anyway!

In answer to your question virgin, no I would not. Unfortunately my list of commitments require me to keep the cash flowing. Happily for me I have a trade on which to fall back on. I dont have the luxury of being part of the come home generation. The responsibilties of most men require them to provide a wage for the household, we all have to keep our necks above the water line. I am not trying to wind the poor chap up, but a good dose of reality is not going to do him any harm. Sounds harsh but its just a different angle on the unfortunate situation that is occuring above. You can be as pro active as you like, send thousands of cvs and kiss lines of arse as long as you like. But when it comes to the crunch, if you were mine Kash, you would be down at halfords begging for a job as long as you were living under my roof. Sorry if that upsets some of you, but you have to accept other peoples points of view.

No demand , an oversupply of pilots , an industry and society that doesn`t care and an economy that is down 6.7 % in the last year ? Take a break for a few years , get another skill / trade / profession and then come back when the numbers are more ... positive. I respect your tenaciousness but you must accept reality. It`s a numbers game as much as anything else. Boeing has orders for almost 900 787`s , when they are about a third of the way through that production run in the year 2015 , then will be the time to jump back in. Until then , get that career skill you`ll need to fall back on for the next recession.

Thank you all for taking the time to post, I very much appreciate your honest opinions and advice. In my previous post I have already highlighted that I do have a backup plan as before I tried to pursue a career as a pilot, I had qualified as an aeronautical engineer and worked at the European space agency followed by as an oil and gas consultant for a large petroleum company. It was not until I got made redundant and tried to get back into engineering that I followed this path.
I don’t want people feeling sorry for me, and neither do I wish to hack people off. And if you feel that I have in anyway please forgive me as this certainly was not my intension. I do not wish to be signing on at the job centre. I’m not holding out for a pilot’s job or an engineering job. I would be more than happy to accept any job in any field. This is what I am currently trying to do, I was not born with a golden spoon in my mouth, and I worked damn hard from the age of 16 and saved every penny all my life to become a pilot.

I understand that there is no job as a pilot out there for me, but I don’t want to look back in the future and say that I didn’t try my upmost and sincere best. My first ever job was loading bags onto aircrafts and worked my way up. But this isn’t my story it’s the story of thousands of us inexperienced pilots who have paid out their own pockets. And have promised themselves not to pay to fly.

If I have upset anyone in the process of expressing my views and opinions or even asking for a bit of advice I apologise from the bottom of my heart.


Kash360

Kash,

I did a few stints at the dole office after I was fully qualified. I know it feels awful and wouldnt wish it on anybody. But being as you have paid tax, and certainly your flying course had taxation upon it, you are damn well entitled to Dole. So claim away. At least you've shown that you have done everything that could be asked of you.
This has to be one of the most heartless, and worrying industries in the world, and it's getting worse by the day.

As a side note I never paid for a type rating either but went down the instructional route. I was lucky in the sense of timing. Before the true madness with the banks arrived into daylight.
I must say it makes me appreciate what I have now 20 fold.

It's not easy, I know but I wish you well in your search, it's a well trodden path, but I know it can feel lonely sometimes.
You are unfortunately stuck with the wonders of the UK economy.

Good luck, I really mean that! :ok:

Kash

I wish you the best of luck. You seem like really nice guy. I dont think there is anymore you can do really. Its just a sad reflection of the market at the moment. Last week I was flying a little TP round the highlands of Scotland...this week i too am sitting in the dole office:{. Until the market improves, I dont rate your chances much and whilst I believe the situation will get better...we aint talkin short-term:(.
My advice (and it applies to me too!!). Hang on in...go back to your original career...keep current..and wait for things to change. Dont stop applying but be realistic too. BTW I applaud you not resorting to P2F....i think its a despicable practice but hey people are selfish b**tards and pilots are people so it doesnt come as a shock!

Good luck my friend
Alpha:ok:

try to get a job for an airport.
load planes, drive bus, refueling...

Finding a Job!!!
 

Hi There Kash,

I see you mentioned Zambia and Bots. I might add me and a couple of mates of mine had very similar experiences to you in Maun. Maun is all about timing if your'e not there at the right time and you don't like sheep in long grass then forget it!!!!!!

In my time many years ago we didn't waste our time we just headed for East Africa and there was plenty of work to go around. So What i'm trying to say is there are more country's that you could have tried in africa. For instance Tanzania thats where me and my mates ended up, but don't leave it there try Uganda, Rwanda, The DRC,Gabon,Equatorial Guinea, Ghana granted some of them not as pleasant as others but really worth giving a go.

Its in times like these you gotta be prepared to go where no one else will!!! It worked for me. So pack a backpack and just go and start knocking on these doors. Its worth noting in all these exotic places no one will hire you online.com.

I'm happy to say that it all worked out for me and my mates we are all flying for various airlines around the world NONE OF US ENDED UP PAYING FOR A RATING.

I started out in africa with 273.2 Hrs i was unemployed for 8 months then i got offered 3 jobs in 1 week when it rains it pours!!!! I was lucky enough that my first job was on a Multi Turbine/ Multi Crew aircraft because it made my JAR conversion much easier I left Africa with just under 2500hrs all of it on turbine aircraft...

So give africa another go.... Try to think outside the box a little don't follow the sheep....Also don't be so quick to tell the world you scored your first job till your'e through with your line training and comfortably flying the line because the next thing you know there will be 20 other guys hanging around up that tree waiting to take your job!!!!

Hope that helps!!!

Pete77:ok:

I been following Kash360 for a while now. I don't know what to say. All I can say that its the toughest job market I have ever seen for pilots here in the States, and we have a little more aviation here than in most places, and I have been in the business since 1974 when I started. There are jobs but its very narrow and type. In other worlds a light airplane and helicopter bush pilot like myself with plenty of flight time is not going to get a job flying A-320's in China or 747's till the economic out look improves a lot of us will be on the streets. There is nothing you can do about it, other than keep applying and let the employer say no, not you. Employers are getting over run with resume's when a few short years ago they were not. In my last interview, for example the employer gotten 900 resumes for the job, in this case an Helicopter EMS job. The gotten the pile down to 9 and made phone calls, then they gotten the that pile down to three and made another phone call interviews for two seats. I had gotten down to the final three, Not bad, it would have been better If I had gotten one of the seats, I fly both airplanes and helicopters and and I have well over 10K for hours in the logbook and a bunch more I can put in one. So its not always about fight time. Its just what it is. There is always tomorrow.

Afternoon,

I would like to thank all the people who have provided me with leads; I appreciate your help and support. I would also like to personally thank George Semel for participating on this thread. George has been a pillar of support during my tour of Africa, and is someone we should all heed to when advice is being offered. In the same context I would like to thank you all for your posts too.

It has been raised in one of the above posts and why I should not go back and explore Africa a bit more. I have no response to this as I think it is a fantastic idea in which I would love to go back and try my luck again. However at the current moment in time funds have dried out, and am trying to save up again to fund my next venture.

I received a call this morning from a SSTR organisation; I was shocked at how convincing these guys are, offering me an A320 type and 150 line training for just under £40,000. Anyway I am sticking to my guns and resisting that route. I have been following up any leads and as yet have not heard anything back.

This morning had been down to the temping agencies handing out C.V’s so hopefully hear something back. I am trying to think outside of the box, but like it has been said before that I may have tried everything in my power.

So for the short term I have decided to stay current and keep plugging away at looking for work. I would also like to point out to Shaun Ryder who has been kind enough to share his views, that even though they were painful to read, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your advice. I truly believe that the advice you offered was meant in my best interest.

However I anyone does have any further advice for inexperienced pilots, I would be forever grateful if you could share it with us. Myself and am sure many others like me would be honoured by your views and advice. As always I hope this post finds you all in best health.

Kash360

Ever considered being an author?

Afternoon,

As always I hope this post and all the ones to follow find you in good health and content with all you do. I opened this thread not for me, but for all who travel the same path as I do. It can be said that this road is long and hard, but I would like to say that this road has taught me allot and has demonstrated that people on this website have crossed this path too. It is those who have travelled this road who show and offer us their encouragement and advice.

We all hold the required paperwork, but only a few of us have the courage to see our journey to the end. I met up with a few pilots who are too in the same position as me last night. It was to say the least heartbreaking and upsetting to find that these pilots had lost all hope in succeeding in their goals. They were now exploring the route of the forbidden fruit (pay to fly).

I plead to all those who have succeeded on their path to please share with us your experience, I hope this will help guide and deter those who have lost hope?

I am not asking for you to provide us with all your contacts neither are we asking that you give our CV’s to those in charge, just asking that if you be so kind to share your journeys with us so we may find hope and encouragement to stay on this path.

I apologise if you find that you feel that I am out of my depth to ask such things. However I really do think it will help those who are being discouraged.

Ei-flyer, thank you for your post but the answer is no. I have never considered being an author, I believe I do not have the skills and plus the fact that I would be the only one to buy a copy to give to my mother.

Kash360.

I feel sorry for you guys at the start of your career, but I feel that there are a few comments on this thread that might need a bit of a reply.

BALPA does not want to see pay to fly and to that end BALPA is involved as much as it can be to try and stop the practice. You can join BALPA as an Associate Member for £24 a year, free if you are still training. You can get involved with BALPA to try and help change things and to help with campaigns. Much goes on behind the scenes, that is not always publicised widely, but if you look around the website or call the office you will find out more. In fact BALPA is often looking for extra volunteers to help with campaigns. But remember that BALPA is really its members - BALPA has no sway directly on the airlines - BALPA members in airlines can fight to stop the airline introducing these schemes, but unless all the pilots are prepared to go on strike there is only so much that can be done.

The only way this practice will stop is if new pilots stop taking the deals. Currently there are lots of qualified experienced pilots looking for jobs. Many of those will remain out of work because new pilots choose to pay to fly. This only further erodes terms and conditions, and once those pilots have been used by the airline they will get rid of them and get in the next batch of pay to fly. This will continue ad infinitum, until new pilots put a stop to it. Once new pilots stop accepting these deals then airlines will have no choice but to pay a proper wage to employ the pilot with the best experience/ skills.

If anyone has time on their hands then why not write a balanced article for publication in The Log, BALPA's mag?

I have seen so many posts on various forums about it all being BALPA's fault and how its terrible for the new guys coming through. But you have to be smart and take some responsibility here - if no-one paid for their own type rating, the airlines would have to!!!!

So ultimately you are shooting yourselves in the foot by paying for your own type ratings and also with pay to fly. I know its really tough out there and most airlines expect it, but the only way that will change is when the airlines run out of people willing to pay to work. Until then, each pilot who gets to the end of their pay to fly scheme will simply be replaced by another. Bear that in mind when you sign up and send your cheque.

Perhaps energies could be channelled to this end - publicise to your fellow new pilots that no-one should accept pay to fly schemes. Of course, as mentioned previously, pilots can be selfish and there is bound to be someone who will break ranks. It happened over the last few years with type ratings and now its pay to fly.

Another campaign that is always worth a mention is this one:
FairPlane
This is a campaign to get more funding for flight training and/or get rid of tax on flight training.

Good luck guys!

OK Airbus Girl. Prove it. There's not a single item on their website that even mentions so-called Pay 2 Fly schemes. Just ask marketing if they have ever done anything remotely related to raising public/industry awareness about this practice. The answer is a resounding NO!

They've condemned it in The Log.

Ultimately there is only one person/one entity that can stop free men signing a pay-to-fly contract with an airline employer. It isn't BALPA and it isn't other pilots or the Courts. Its Wannabes. They are the ONLY people who have the power to stop pay-to-fly.

But they never ever work collectively and never will. These days the one with the biggest pile of cash wins. And nothing else matters.

Truly sad for the profession but there you are.


WWW

Superpilot: OK Airbus Girl. Prove it.

OK then....
The BALPA NEC are trying to stop pay per fly. Bear in mind that these guys are volunteers, and do this in their own time, in between flying duties.

They are working on a BALPA policy statement expressing opposition to these practices, and also on bonding issues. This will be useful for both new pilots and the airline reps.

The NEC are also looking at the tax implications, to try to at least establish pay to fly pilots as employees rather than self employed pilots.

BALPA are also trying to get official recognition for trainee pilots at their training organisation so that BALPA can be involved in negotiations on contracts.

There is a new email being set up so that trainee pilots can send info to BALPA about what is really happening, because much of what BALPA know is purely hearsay. It will be [email protected].

The NEC is also trying to encourage new pilots to join, which will help BALPA to fight their cause.

It would be interesting to know how many of you on this forum are members of BALPA or get involved trying to help out? I suspect the number is very low, despite the low cost per year, yet you expect pilots who are working full time, such as the BALPA reps and members of the various BALPA study groups to help out by giving their time for your cause.

As it happens, all the members of the various study groups (including those involved in your cause) are volunteers who do it in their spare time.

A phone call to BALPA would get you further information should you require it.

Afternoon,

I would like to express my gratitude for both WWW and Airbus girl to participate on this thread; it is a great honour to have you both share your views on the matter of BALPA. However I could not agree more than share the views of WWW, where the underlining matter is the wannabes who are taking up this route of destruction. Never the less after taking some time to think on this matter, I thought it would be great to call BALPA.

I have this morning called BALPA and congratulated them on this matter, I have also joined and expressed my concerns and offered to help in any way possible to win this cause. I do not think it is enough for us to sit in the comforts of our homes and accept that this problem exits but do nothing to help the cause.

I have scheduled a meeting with BALPA and will pay them a visit and try and shine any light I can through the articles I have been asked to write. However even though my views are much in line with WWW and Airbus girl, I do think that we could go one step further. I do understand that it is the wannabes who are destroying this industry, however if our experienced pilots could speak to their chiefs in charge and point out this cause with all its implications it may deter them from hiring them in the further. It’s just some food for thought.

I am not part of any organisation; however I do stand up for what I strongly believe in. And this is a matter that I do strongly believe in. If any of you think that I may be able to help in anyway, then I do have the time and passion and would be grateful if you PM me.

To Wannabes like me,

Please remember this is our industry, and at the moment it is on its knees. Please don’t help to bring it down further. We must take care of our future and the future of the industry, paving a path where we can stand proud and know that we helped the cause for pilots to come. It is our responsibility as well as others, and I understand that we cannot get jobs at the moment but paying to fly is not the answer to our problems.

Kash360.

Airbus Girl, with all due respect that's not proof. How do I or any member of the public know about each of the below?

The BALPA NEC are trying to stop pay per fly....

They are working on a BALPA policy statement expressing opposition to these practices, and also on bonding issues....

The NEC are also looking at the tax implications....

BALPA are also trying to get official recognition for trainee pilots...

Proof is a public statement. Proof is when they mention 'Pay2Fly' on the campaigns page.

BALPA have done next to nothing to raise awareness of this disease. You cannot honestly say that in the context of all the other campaigns they are running that they are "trying" to do something about Pay2Fly.

It seems my earlier mentioning P2F and Balpa in the same post was rather divisive. The sensible thing, would be for me to shuffle off into the electronic ether and see how things pan out.

However I sense from the very defensive posts from Airbus girl, that you are in some way involved with Balpa (albeit in a subservient role) and that you probably know how to contact someone who matters.

It just so happens, I was let off a couple of landing fees today and I now by sheer coincidence, have £24 pounds, burning a hole in my pocket. So if Pay2Fly appears as and active campaign on Balpa's website, I will put my money where my mouth is and PM you my membership number. Can't say fairer than that? :ok:

Afternoon,

Firstly I would like to thank all those who have sent me a PM to show support, encouragement and providing me with leads. However still I find myself in the same place I have been for the past few months, at home scrounging of my parents. Currently life is at a standstill, I’m even finding it difficult to get a job at Tesco’s stocking shelves, let alone a flying position.

I do not wish to sit on this website and cry my eyes out, trying to persuade you guys to feel sorry for me. However the truth is that there is thousands of people in the same position as me, I’m not trying to be a spokesman for them but I feel that there must be something that we can do to get our foot on the ladder.


I haven’t borrowed a single penny to become a pilot; I worked hard and saved up. While my mates were going partying at night I stayed in. While my mates went to Starbucks for a coffee, I drank tap water. I haven’t bought myself anything in the past 8 years. I saved every penny. And now when I look in my dad’s eyes I’m not sure what I see, him being proud of me or being disappointed. I feel though he is saying what a dumbass wasting all his money on nothing other than a few worthless pieces of paper. I’m not trying to prove him wrong all I want to do is get these hands dirty, I no longer care about getting on the right hand seat of an aircraft all I care about now is getting back on my two feet. If that means scrubbing toilets for the rest of my life so be it!!


I’m not ashamed or disappointed at spending tens of thousands of pounds on training, in fact if I had a chance I would do it all again. Becoming a pilot was not a mistake it was my dream and hopes and I believe that every person has the right to follow their dreams however small or big. If I had children I would tell them to go out and do everything they wanted in life.

I have received an email from an experienced pilot who was so kind to share his journey to his first job, it was an eye opener and gave me allot of encouragement to go further. I would like to ask if our experience pilots could also share there journeys with us on here so we may be able to learn and maybe notice our own mistakes.


Kash360.

You say you want to fly and that you are trying to resist the temptation to pay for a type rating and hours on type, which i take to mean that if needs be you can find some money. So why not become a flight instructor. I am aware that it is probably not possible to get full time employment as an instructor and in this era of type ratings and pay to fly it may not be highly regarded but if you were as persistent in pursuing a job as you have been so far you would surely be able to get a day or two a week somewhere. And if flying is your dream then simply being able to fly once or twice a week would certainly improve your outlook on life. Once you have an instructor rating, even if you never manage to gain a full time airline job you will always be able to fly even if you have to have a nine to five job that pays the bills.