BA Sponsorship
 

I remember reading something about this a few months ago, rumours that it may be coming back. Ive just got off the phone with my auntie who was in London earlier this week and read something in one of the papers about BA looking for pilots, alledgedly through the sponsorship route. A quick look at their website suggests its still closed, but has anyone heard any more about it coming back?

EDIT - This is the post i was referring too - http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...ml#post4606514

Sounds pretty conclusive then?!

Thanks for that helpful reply. The reason i put this post was because ive not, as yet, spotted it anywhere else!

It is just a rumor and would highly doubt BA would actually go through with it. Why would they want to risk the financial burden of setting up an ab-initio scheme which would likely cost £70k+ per person. Especially when there are 3-4 very good FTO's about that are doing this for them and still churning out cadets every month? BA don't need to pay any up-front costs and they can still have the pick of recently qualified cadets.

I'm sure BA have better things to spend their money on. Or should I say not spend their money on. If they sponsor someone to go to one of these FTO's that are already set up then I would question why they're wanting to take on that financial risk with no guarantees that someone who passes their selection tests actually get through the course. The failure stats maybe very low but BA would still be accountable for the costs. At the minute they avoid that risk by only paying for someone who is already qualified. Thus all the major training costs have already been covered.

Sorry mate but I think this is one rumor that will never materialise. At the minute I would say it just doesn't make good business sense. If it does turn out to be truen then I'll be interested to read BA's justification of doing it. Especially in todays economic climate.

SHG.

This is more or less the view i was taking on the whole thing, having not seen the 'article' in question. She had mentioned that it said something about the fact that their flight crew is getting quite old and theres a requirement in the next couple of years to head towards recruiting new pilots.

When i heard it i pretty much said the same as that in the post above, but thought it would be worth an ask none the less

I wonder if BA will ever take cadet pilots again? Presumably it makes better business sense for them to accept only DEP in future, especially if they turn up with an A320 type rating and an unfrozen ATPL.

This is good news, considering an Airline I have expressed prior interest working for. Whats the min age I can start Training, and is this method via oxford or some other organization?

Regards,

Robbie

P.s: I do know it has not started up yet and just a rumour. But just any Info on what I have said would be good.

Robbie, i dont know specifically, as details dont appear to exist at the moment (oweing to the fact that the schemes been closed for 3 years or so!). Im assuming that IF it reopens the industry publications would be a good way to find out first of all.

As for qualifications, i'd expect it to be tough. A degree would i expect be prefered.

LessThanSte,

Yes I am working on me GCSE's at the moment, I already have one, I took one early so thats a good thing I suppose, taking GCSEs Early. I got a C in maths predicted an F, So I was very pleased. Now I am targeting a B/A, its amazing how life changes aye?

I am on an A with my coursework for ICT, and I havent even entered the exam yet. I got a B on my science ISA, and I got a C on the Year 10 Modulars, Now I am getting C's in the mocks. But I am pushing all the way.

Lets just say I am predicted for the 5 A*-Cs including maths, english and Science. I have chosen 4 A Levels, ICT, Maths, English Literature & physics.

And Becuase I have done some sort of recording/interview and due to my special needs (behaviour issues when I was younger) I get a good chance of getting into Oxford University or cambridge were I would take a Physics Degree.

I dont know if the above is good, I am impressed with it. The shocker is maths though, my least favourite subject I am cruising at.

Regards,

Robbie

They have 150 pilots in the hold pool waiting for courses,

They also have a huge selection of out of work pilots, people wanting to move due to lowered T+C's.

I have very little hope of the scheme ever returning.

Good luck all
Nick

Yes,

I remeber the original post and if true, made me want to never fly BA ever again, let alone fly for them.

Hundreds of low hour cadets looking for jobs, integrated schools (with "affiliations to BA"...) still spitting them out as if the recession has by-passed them, many pilots made redundant etc so why on earth would BA want to start up a sponsorship scheme with money they haven't got???

Apparently the reply to this question on that thread (not posted by me) was that BA don't think the pilots coming out of flight training (including those at OAT et al) are not only technically NOT good enough, but don't have the "personality" to work at BA - hence they wanted their own selction scheme intitially before feeding them into OAT or whatever.

If this is true, my only reply was WTF!!!!! Who do BA think they are. Hundreds (perhaps thousands) of low hour cadets on the market now and in the next few years and they can't find a handful with "BA personality"?

:mad::mad::mad:

This post I have quoted below from Corsair hits the nail right on the head?

'When the quality of qualified pilots is not good enough'. I have to say that is breathtaking in it's arrogance and snobbery. British Airways is just another airline. Just another bloody airline, like all the other airlines. BA pilots are not supermen, not the topguns of the airline world. They're just airline pilots. More than that they are people just like everyone else. They are no better than Virgin pilots, BMI pilots, Ryanair pilots and Aer Lingus pilots, some of whom I have to say have a similar attitude to BA.

I know several BA pilots, they don't walk on water or leap buildings with a single bound. They're just people. They also tell me that BA isn't the be all and end all of being an airline pilot. It's just another job.

If BA's recruters can't get snough 'superior' pilots to apply to the 'world's favourite airline' then maybe then they probably believe their own hype.

The truth is that for the most part BA recruiters came through the Hamble system and they can't can't seem to let it go. It's nothing more than snobbery.

Dicuss!!!!!!

I hope that this scheme does not take off. It would be an insult to the people I read about every day (and at times make my heart break) here on Pprune who have sold their life away and can't get an interview let alone a job.

It won't there are hundreds even thousands of new 250 hours pilots out there looking for a job. Then there are all the pilots who have lost jobs recently. BA is a business, it does not make commercial sense to start training lots of Pilots at BA's expense.
The shareholders would never go for it..........:eek:

Ford Cortina,

the sad thing is that even the most ridiculous of rumours are made based on some element of truth.

Which means God Airlines (oops Ba sorry) don't think that the thousands of pilots out there are good enough.

250hr Mod guys aren't even good enought to tie BA's shoe laces so I wouldn't put this little stunt past them. :mad:

I hope this rumour is exactly that. Because if it came to fruition during a time when thousands of pilots out there don't have a pot to p!ss in, I would see BA as lower than Ryanair in the way they treat low hour cadets.

Skyhighbird.....so true.

I did some of my type rating at BA's training camp, Cranebank. I remember talking to a BA TRE, he had two new cadets with him and was telling us that even they had to pay for their type rating with BA.......

Ford Courtina,

I really struggle to believe that BA cadets are paying for their TR......

They do an additional JOT course paid for by the company and then start on TR at a cadet salary. In BA its the seniority that matters.

Nick

Nick14, only reporting back what I was told.

I am a fellow 737-NG driver, but not for the flying harp.
best of luck

New entrants into BA dont pay for type ratings.

Chances of BA starting up a sponsorship scheme in the next couple of years = 0. Not gonna happen.

If BA were flush with cash I think they might be interested in some sort of part sponsorship, mainly because they'd get far more applicants to chose from (rather than the relatively limited pool that come out of oxford,ctc,fte etc) and they could also get the flight school to tailor the training.

skyhighbird (& corsair), think your posts are way off the mark and unfairly critical. what's wrong with BA wanting to pre-select their future pilots from a larger pool of candidates? Flybe, cityjet etc already do it. I assume you also think that "250hr Mod guys aren't even good enough to tie Flybe/cityjet shoe laces so I wouldn't put this little stunt past them"???

As I said a British Airways Type Rating Examiner, told me and my TRE at Cranebank, Heathrow Airport, London, England, in 2006.

He would have no reason to lie, neither do I as I am one of those ex Modular guys, who has a very good job on the Boeing 737 Classic and NG, with a very good company, no training bond and no debt.

Just passing on information that is all, what you choose to do with it is your concern not mine and for the record there was no grassy knoll.

Well I'll just choose to dis-regard the information cos I know from first hand experience (ie not something i heard off my auntie who read it in the paper) that its incorrect. :ok:

Not worth my time:=
Head and sand comes to mind.
Now if you will excuse me I have to fly to France:ok:

BA has struggled to find modular people who fit their mould. This is not to say that they lack skills, but there is something of a culture at BA into which people have to fit to ensure the operation works smoothly. They are at liberty to pick and choose, since they offer some of the better terms in the industry, and as such are entitled to hold their views. It is not the be all and end all of a flying career.

Furthermore, BA take people who are mature and of low risk. They tend to have an aversion to people who literally bet it all on a training course and have absolutely no backup plans or career.

Having said that, there are also many exceptions, and indeed modular chaps with low hours who succeeded in BA in the past, and will indeed do so in the future.


BA have severely cut capacity. 2 Jumbos parked at Cardiff, all 757s sold to a third party, along with a 25% reduction in s/h Gatwick flying - this necessitates no further cadet recruitment.

However, they were on the verge of launching a new cadet training programme last year (reputed to be along MPL lines), but in light of the dire economic climate have placed that on hold indefinitely. New recruits over the past 5 years have been integrated only (CTC being the exception as it was not until recently an approved integrated course, but instead had the facets of an integrated course - continuity of training etc).


BA have never charged for TRs.

BA do operate as a commercial operation, and will happily take your cash to teach on a self-funded TR, or indeed charge for other operators. Never for their own new employees.

ford cortina - having (struggled) through a BA type rating i know for sure that you dont have to pay for it.
enjoy france:ok:

I stand corrected and I will, the down side is, that I am an the Classic today not the NG as promised, bummer:ok:

Re-Heat is correct.

jez

The comments about not getting good applicants from the FTO's is describing the fact that other airlines had their own sponsorship schemes and were taking the best cadets before BA could take a look at them.

Its not about piloting skills, its about being the right person to fit in at BA.

Air Wolf (and also to Re-heat),

this thread is regarding BA - hence my comments pertaining to BA.

So my comments are "unfairly critical and way of the mark". Sorry but I think Re-heat made my point completely.

"BA has struggled to find modular people who fit their mould. This is not to say that they lack skills, but there is something of a culture at BA into which people have to fit to ensure the operation works smoothly"

Excuse my lack of "David Brent" terminology knowledge but what does the above paragraph mean in non-BS English?

"Don't fit their mould"? "Ensure the operation works smoothly?":mad:

Are there any other BA guys out there to explain the above?
Have we now added more fuel to the mod Vs Int debate?
Integrated students have better personalities?
Better pilots?
The type of person you "can sit next to on a 8 hour flight"...zzzzz.
Do they speak differently?
Do they walk differently -i.e its required to walk around with a banana stuck up their ass?

No offence BA pilots out there - But if you are all of the same culture and agree with what re-heat said, then I wouldn't particularly want to sit next to you for an 8 hour flight.

P.s I look forward to comments saying "If that's your attitude, you will never get into BA..."

Seeing as I was quoted. I might as well join in. It is likely that if there ever is any cadetships again they will be along MPL lines. But I would doubt there will ever be sponsorships as such. Maybe a partial sponsorship but most likely a loan arrangement. The answer is nothing. My comments at the time are slightly out of context on this thread and referred to a specific post which I quoted at the time. The implication of it was that of all airlines, BA only took the best pilots and were struggling to find pilots good enough to fly for them. That seemed to me to be the height of hubris as if BA pilots were some kind of elite and all the rest of us were some kind second raters not fit for a command. Particularly modular trained pilots. Whether this really their attitude is another point altogether. No one would accuse Flybe or Cityjet of this attitude and there are excellent reasons for pre selecting cadet pilots. But to imply BA is some kind of exclusive club is ridiculous.

Of course a lot of starry eyed youngsters fall for this as witnessed here. Only BA is good enough for them. As it happens this is unlikely to help them get into BA.

In any case, no one should hold their breath hoping for sponsorship from any airline into the near to medium term. They'll just have to settle for second rate training and have to work for a second rate airline like Virgin or BMI. :suspect:

Corsair,

as you posted on a public forum, I took the liberty of copying and pasting your post of which I hope you don't mind.

You are right there is nothing wrong with BA and whoever if they wish to ignore the thousand low hour cadets out there. That is up to them - just like it is up to MO'L to squeeze every penny out of cadets.

However I am annoyed by the very reasons you mentioned - the perception that the BA pilots are an elite force.

Re-heat's reply (which I quoted in my rant) illustrated my point perfectly. Weird and wonderful management words stringed together to make some nonsense paragraph that only fuelled my rant.

However I am here to learn and would be very grateful to have a translation of exactly what Re-heat said. Please - don't wrap it up in cotton wool. Tell it how you feel :ok:

I was also amazed at the contradiction.

BA have an aversion to cadets not having a back up plan and beting it all - i.e integrated.

So in that case, surely the mod guy who had a house, family and kids to support, full time job, distance learning ATPL and all the organisation that goes along with that is the best candidate for BA? I'd rather be sitting next to that guy with all those life expereinces than the 19-25 year old who went straight into integrated training who can only tell stories about the time they went to the pub.

Am I missing something here?

skyhighbird:

All you are missing is that BA still have the ability to pick and choose who they wish to recruit.

BA pilots are no more 'sky gods' than any other pilot working the line for a big company. The assessment that BA gives on its interview process is purely based on commercial and personal preferences. The commercial side wants to train you as quickly as possible for as cheaply as possible but to the standards and SOP's that the training department wish to achieve. The personal assessment, done by the HR weirdos and a pilot, looks at whether, they consider you to be suitable to fit into the organisation. Other companies do it differently, BMED was a friendly chat with the Chief Pilot, different approach but, ultimately, the same result. If they don't like you, you ain't getting in.

There are many, many perfectly ordinary guys flying the line at BA and most, if not all (bound to happen with 3500 pilots), are great to fly with both from a professional aspect and a personal.

Don't get hung up about the colour of the plane, just enjoy the job, fly without the need for paperwork and always land rubber side down.

Unless the situation gets dire and the T's & C's of BA plummet even more, then this is likely to be the scenario for the foreseeable future.

edit:

Forgot to add, the only reason AFAIK for the preference between modular and integrated is that the training department can pretty much 'guarantee' the previous training structure of the integrated cadet as averse to the possibly 'unknown' training background of the modular. Thats all there is to it.

wobble2plank,

you are right and I completely agree with you - BA can pick and choose who they want when they want.

However what gets up my nose is the way they shut out low hour mod cadets without any good reason apart from - we can so we will. When this is questioned by those on pprune, the replies come across as arrogant- from those that are actually flying for them. (there are some replies that obviously come from current employees).

I can't tell from your post whether you are a pilot with said airline but even your explanation "the training department can pretty much 'guarantee' the previous training structure of the integrated cadet as averse to the possibly 'unknown' training background of the modular" has the same arrogance and discrimination. - even though as I said you may not be a BA guy.

I find this an insult to mod students (I am not one btw). Does this mean that a mod structure may have some "quirks" that mean a low hour cadet might raise the flaps when he should have raised the gear instead?

Does this mean that the guy who juggled a full time job, family and ATPLs and still managed to get his/her fATPL is less worthy compared to the 20y/o that put his parents' semi at risk?

Frankly, as our NATIONAL airline and "WORLD's" favourite airline, I think the recruitment (if they ever did low hour cadets again) should be from a national spectrum rather than just getting those from Oxford.

I see why you are confused - let me explain.

Every company - aviation or not - has a culture. There is not such thing as absolutely subjective recruitment - no such thing as simply selecting those with the best grades. It comes down to impressions made on the day, and ability to gel with those interviewing you. This is not isolated to BA alone, but is common across all businesses (at least those in a position to choose).

BA has, what it believes, a honed training system that has been developed from years of experience. Others have other systems, that differ in many respects. What they want therefore are people that fit that training system and culture.

So long as you are not one of the starry-eyed people focussed only on BA, you should not be offended by this. It is pragmatic, suits some people, and won't suit others. An organisation tends to be set in its ways - if you don't agree, a one-man army to change it is hardly conducive to a positive working environment.

Integrated v modular in BA is somewhat developed from the self-selection argument. Self-selection is not thought positive, both in BA and many other airlines - not for the reason that modular students can't handle it (many can) or that they will never recruit them (they have), but that the likelihood of success on an intense type-rating was demonstrated (a number of years ago) to be significantly lower. With the ability to choose whomever they liked, their preference remained for integrated students - the supply was there (and they of course knew the exact product, having developed it with BAe at Prestwick - now Jerez, and working with Hamble / Oxford / Cabair students in the past as well).

Of course, this does not apply if coming from another airline with experience.

They don't like piecemeal training, lack of continuity, and any possibility that retraining will be required in the sim / on the line. Hence, high preference for integrated people who have planned a continuous training course at one location, where their records are available, with a known quality product. Hence, why they don't like people who are starry eyed, train at each stage as and when they can afford it, and bet the ranch on the less safe option (in their eyes).

The business itself is quite frankly a palava as well. They need people who can deal with waiting 20 years for command, a disaster of an operation at Heathrow, and operating at a high level with premium customers.

It is one of many companies in the UK, but one that employs just a huge number of pilots.

The question is - do you prepare yourself for any eventuality, and be in a position to step into a business that controls half (the present - perhaps not the future) of UK pilot jobs, or turn your back on that segment entirely.

Does the culture fit - RAF types, old sponsored types, recruits from other airlines - many who were modular, tours, longhaul, shorthaul. Or do you prefer to be at home every night with easyJet?

Suits some, not others - they need to match people to that operation, and in the simple fact of selecting people and rejecting others, that is not arrogance in itself, but simply a measure that they can indeed pick and choose.

All this debate is great (if not repetitive!), but isnt really answering my question which was;

'In a London paper there was a story/advert (i dont know, i havnt seen it) about British Airways and 'Sponsorship'. Has anyone else heard anything that may suggest its coming back?'

The rights and wrongs about whether or not they 'should' could be debated ad nausem but its quite a simple question, really. Yes theres a few answers that would suggest that it isnt, in which case why would the story have appeared in the first place?

P.S. Im attempting to find out which paper it was in and will let you know when i find out (IF i find out!)

You have real complex about thinking other ppl are better than you.

I dont know how on earth you get arrogance from wanting to guarantee someones training, it is sensible. They can obtain as much information about you aswell as confirming a standard of training.

Stop trying to turn it into a social class debate. Take the chip off your shoulder.

Lessthanste: It has been answered many times, both here and on previous threads. It wont be back for years. They were planning on it, and will probably start things rolling in a few years when the economy is back.

You have as much chance getting into BA through an FTO now, as you would at getting onto their sponsored scheme if and when it starts.

Dont plan your life around a potential BA cadet scheme.

I did answer your question. It was postponed and never advertised.

It was most certainly not management speak. It was a way to illustrate what became policy at a time when very few people were doing classic modular training at all - people at that time took integrated courses, came from another airline, or were ex-RAF. And why would they change when the pool of people who qualify for their requirements is still sufficient, known, and low-risk.

Simple, it's down to money. It's also nothing to do with any of the pilots except the training department as to who gets accepted and who not.

Financially and statistically it has been proven that low houred (as in ab-initio) modular pilots have more difficulty in passing the type rating than those who have completed an integrated course. The ability to assess a student (SEP entry pilot) based upon concise, coherent written reports is a whole lot more enticing to a bean counter counting the training budget.

It is nothing to do with which is better and which is worse it is all to do with reducing the cost of the training package by picking those students that, in the opinion of the training managers, have a greater chance of passing the course to the required standard first time without repeats if possible. Next time you want to take a look at the cost of a 4 hour sim detail. As to the same quirks between the MOD and Integrated, then the integrated student will, hopefully, have had these 'quirks' reported thus enabling the selection to be done knowing those quirks and not after ward in the sim.

BA do take modular pilots, however they tend to take them as DEP after they have had a few hours in other companies. There are an awful lot of Easyjet and Ryanair pilots in the RHS at the moment who were, previously, modular.

There is no arrogance, holier than thou or malicious attitude. It is purely down to cost, cost and more cost.

Some might say that you have a particular axe to grind on this one?

As to the sponsorship, as Re Heat has constantly replied, it was toyed about last year as an integrated scheme to be run along the lines of the old Prestwick college. With the downturn all ideas have been shelved. When the up turn arrives though the company will, undoubtedly, want to be in a position to 'just add water' and expand to a position where they can take advantage of the up turn. Start looking then! Flight International always carries the BA recruiting adverts.

Reheat

I think that was perhaps the best explanation I have seen on pprune - or anywhere else and I think that post should be a sticky and substituted for the Mod Vs Integrated debate posts that regularly appear here.

CC2180 - this is a pilot wannabee forum. Wannabe Frueds should visit a different one. I have no complex of ppl being better than me. Perhaps I was just trying to get to the bottom of why a majority have the door closed in their faces before they even knock.

I now know that fingers were burnt once (I wont ask for possible reasons why) with mods on an intensive type rating course - hence the reluctance to take the blinkers off. Fair enough.

Air-wolf. BA haven't lost my bag. I have an "understanding" with our team sec that if I have to be posted out somewhere for a meeting, BA should always come behind 2 certain middle-east carriers, and one south east asian carrier. Nothing personal - with the ability to choose whoever I like my preference remains with another carrier :E

No axe to grind. I certainly do not have ill-will towards BA that because I will choose the lesser-risk, more secure way of financing my way through flying the mod way, I won't get to sit in a BA jet as a low hour cadet (if they did indeed re-start this recruitment).

My love of flying came from trips to Duxford with plane spotting mad daddy, and enjoying watching a brother make air-fix models of Lancasters, B-17's, Spitfires and the totally cool TU-95 bear.

Unlike other wanabees, I have no intention of sitting in anything remotely "jet", at least not until I'm 40. Give me a Dash-8 (no jokes pls) or a Junkers 52 (dreaming) over an A320 anyday of the week - thats proper flying :)

A secure way of training (part time mod) means i never have to risk my house/car which is all fully paid for, so if I have to spend the next 10 years on 12K a year flying piston a/c, then I'll be living the dream and have no debts at the same time.

Thats flying the dream :)

Skyhighflyer, no problem with you quoting me. I think it's still relevant.

Lessthanste, it doesn't matter what newspaper it was in. It clearly isn't going to happen soon. Why would any airline spend money training ab-initio when they have the pick of direct entry pilots both employed and unemployed?

Reheat, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here: Now is that your opinion or one you attribute to BA or both? Your emphasis on the word planned is interesting. Of course it implies that only integrated pilots plan their training. My friend, now flying with an airline planned his training by going to a flight school and staying there until he qualified. It was full time, his records are available, and the main reason he didn't go to an expensive integrated school was because he didn't have the money. But because it's officially a modular course he is to be classified as a starry eyed risk taker (in their eyes).:suspect:

As far as I'm concerned the only difference between self sponsored integrated people and self sponsored modular is the amount of money they can raise for training. The implication that all or most modular trained pilots are poorly trained is insulting and wrong.

If BA has a problem with the quality of cadet pilots, then it's self inflicted. They have a preference for integrated often from 'certain' schools. Rightly or wrongly that's their decision. But there is a smaller pool of integrated people. At the moment all of them are self selected and have access to the money to pay for it and the time to spend at a residential school.

That's all that differentiates them from modular people who are self selected too but have less money and may or may not be able to spend a year and a half away from home.

I'm not surprised they can't find suitable people in integrated courses to fit in with their 'culture'. It's a smaller pool and given that the only basis for selection is their desire to be a pilot and having the money to pay for it, there's bound to be a disproportionate number who simply wouldn't fit in with BA's view of their ideal pilot.

None of that means they will sponsor pilots soon. Far more likely the mentored method as per CTC and others. I very much doubt the fully paid for sponsorship will come back for major airlines. Times have changed.

It's not a policy of my design. Don't shoot the messenger.

Im 24, and my posting history will confrim to you, I am indeed a wannabe. You have an inferiority complex. BA dont take cadet mods because they are an unknown risk, not because they are poor/dumb/common as you imply :rolleyes:


Ridiculous statements as above of conspiracy amidst other posters experienced backgrounds in this thread help to prove it.

Grow up.