Finance for CTC
 

hi guys...just looking for a bit of advice, having spoke to CTC they have said that the cadets now need to arrange their own finance for the £60,000 deposit adn need to speak to their own banks.

having phoned and spoken to each and every major high street bank, none of them will put up the full amount let alone deferring payments for the 2 years whilst training :ugh:

does any one have any ideas as to where i can get this kind of financial agreement?...(i dont have any rich parents/grandparents or any other family!!)

thanks!

:)

I believe HSBC do it, only certain branches. Correct me if I'm wrong but is it not much more than £60k?

Here is some tough, frank and but truthful advice:

Forget CTC!!

Work hard for the next two-three years, save up and pay from out of your own pocket. Dont owe anybody! Trust me, you will not be missing out on much over the next two years. Now is not a good time to look for an airline job. The market is already over subscribed, (more pilots than jobs) and its gonna get worst with experienced pilots being laid off and in the job hunt too.

Be honest and think about it realistically; Would you loan some stranger £60-70K to pursue a dream in a career that is notoriously unstable, in todays market!? I dont think any bank in their right mind would do so without security (house). And banks are very unstable now (HBOS, Lehman, Nothern Rock).

Just work and save, do it the modular way, and you'll be smiling at the end!


:ok:

going integrated while airlines are sacking....heu...:8

:E

give it a second thought mate...

I was told (and just read in another thread), that HSBC are soon going to scrap the PSL :uhoh:

Hey Sarah, i think the next few months you'll be not alone trying to find out a solution on how to finance your flying carrer!
A solution i was thinking about was that: ' why not splitting the 60k £ in 2 or 3 less risky loans? '
May be they (banks)don't let you do this but there could be a way how to overcome this hurdle..

I give up.


WWW

Phase 1 ok
Phase 2 ok
Phase 3 ok
Phase 4 ok


after that i would'n let such a big opportunity fly away for any :mad: reason!

They wont let you. When you go to get a loan they check how much money you owe to other organisations before lending you anything.

If you don't admit you have other loans when applying, you will essentially be fraudulently obtaining the money.

But, the banks will know, because the credit checks will be against your history, and any loans will also be flagged up on the credit history. And in anycase, how would you pay it back during your training with no 'payment holiday'.

You'll have to do it the hard way. Earn the money, then spend it on your training. If I did it, then so can you!

I'm afraid Jay Solo is spot on and there is no easy way round this financial turmoil. Enjoy your training, but don't overspend at the moment.

ps i went through CTC for a type rating and was appalled by the whole setup. 11 different instructors for 13 sim rides most of which didn't know alot about our SOPS! £25,000 better spent in the US and A i think

Keep the dream alive just make the dream a little longer to start with:ok:

That's what I am doing (saving money of course;))but still faaaaaaar away from 75k£ and in any case if you already have a job banks borrow you money,may be difficult to explain why you need to postpone the first repayment:E

CTC are crooks
 

Please do not involve yourselves in this debacle.

A bunch of training captains lining their own pockets.

I said it 8 years ago and I say it now.

Ask Egg about their manipulative practices and their bonus schemes.

These guys have raped the industry for years because newbeeies have accommodated it.

silverhawk.......easy there fella. ctc have their faults, but its basically a good organisation with good people. as an ex-cadet would def recommend the wings programme. there's not many better ways of going from zero hours into the right hand seat of an airliner in less than 2 years.

and for what its worth, would also back-up what jay_solo said - get some cash put aside before you begin the course, saves you worrying about repayments at the end if you dont land a job straight away.

Just be aware that not all cadets are getting jobs at the end of their 6 month airline placement. Have a look at the easyjet threads. Somehow I don't think Easyjet will be alone in this for the forseeable future.

Totally agree with Tonker and Silverhawk, we went through the same program.
I have since let my 73 rating lapse and obtained a more profitable one.

Cheats,Theives, and :mad:

Silverhawk, slightly harsh but if you have your reasons for saying things like that then fair point.

CTC and HSBC I believe have ended their relationship WRT to finances cadet pilots. It now has to be secured against an asset of somekind.

I have been told first hand that 22 cadets have not been kept on after their 6 month probabtionary period. CTC have pocketed their salaries! Easyjet and CTC will be no more.

I would guess that if you're graduating from CTC (or have recently as they're people in the hold pool waiting) between now and say the end of next year you have zero chance of gaining employment.

Think very hard before you spend all that money secured on your parents house!

CFM.

Since it seems CTC is going downhill and I was considering applying I am starting to get very concerned about what to do. If you guys had the money available would you still go for CTC??

Also everyone keeps mentioning modular training, if you think integrated courses are a bad idea at the mo, where would you do this training and with whom?

The only reason integrated is a bad idea now, is that when you graduate in 14months, we all know there wont be any jobs. If you were thinking of integrated, still follow that route if thats what you want, but dont start out until you see integrated lot getting jobs again. Anyway, flybe talking of MPL - id look into that...

Once upon a time, CTC were THE best route to become an airline pilot. They were taking 1.5% of all initial apllicants, training 6 new cadets a month who would fly every day, all of whom were going straight into airline jobs. HSBC were happy to fund these cadets as there was no question over them getting jobs as they were all quality pilots who the airlines loved.

Then CTC got greedy...

They started trying to train 14-16 new cadets (£60,000 each) a month, as a result, they had to lower their standards letting 5% of the initial aplicants onto the course, sending them to New Zealand when they knew that there were not enough aircraft or instructors to train them. Cadets would fly once a week. Standards dropped, a higher percentage of cadets got chopped.

Then they started the Wings ICP scheme. Using the CTC name to brand a course you can do at any flying club.

Then the industry went tits up... 14-16 cadets a month finishing training, zero jobs available. Hold pool rapidly filling. HSBC gets nervous, cuts funding to the cadets.

End result? CTC is now no different to Oxford, FTE, Cabair or any other flying school. Don't be dazzled by the name.

ANA interview
 

Any body has a gouge for ANA (all Nippon Airwyas) interview? Sim profile in detail? Questions they might ask? Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:

1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...

2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR

3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.

4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly you will become un-current very quickly and secondly you learnt how to fly so FLY.

5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook :}

6)Listen to WWW


Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money to pay for the flying. Also the military is not training that many either.

2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.

3) See this credit crunch, and my advice as your saviour in a couple of years time. It will make it easier


That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described so I KNOW it works....

Thank you and good night!!!

BLJD,

Some of the finest advice I have ever seen on these forums.

Sadly, I suspect there will still be impetuous people out there, desperate to aquire vast amounts of debt gambling on a very poor, turbulent and dangerous jobs market, just so they can get their shiny licences in 13-15 months.

Folks, if the banks ain't lending then there's one hell of a good reason and no amount of positive mental attitude and self confidence will get them to change their minds.

Regards,
Obs

Excellent advice there but you let yourself down with the facebook thing, the number of friends you have on facebook isn't an indication of whether you are somesort of cock, the indicator is whether you use it at all, anyone who does really needs to get a life...pprune is bad enough but at least it serves a purpose :}

Bluelearjetdriver is right!

Listen to experienced pilots and steer clear of the marketing men.

Get an instructor rating and pay the rent with a ground based job! Most University students have to do part time work so it's not surprising wannabee pilots need to do the same in times of zero credit.

Do not look down on Instructor jobs, Turbo Prop options from King Airs to Flybe. If you are single go abroad and gain valuable flying and life experience.

By the time you come to FO/RHS Airbus/Boeing interview in 2011 those experience levels will benefit the airline with reduced Line Training requirements over cadet schemes. They want dependable, safe pilots with the ability to progress to command.

Also once you have 1500hrs and 500 MPA/MCC you will get the full ATPL and be promoted to SFO in most airlines with a far better salary than a cadet who probaly starts on £1000 a month pre tax for 6 months with £100k debt to repay.

If you must get a Type Rating then search carefully and avoid the sales hype. Reliable firms include CAE, Oxford/GECAT etc.

DO NOT pay for Line Training - that is paying to work and ruining Pilot Terms and Conditions!

All great advice.

But still wont stop the "100K for Zero to Hero mentality"....

just to balance things, there are a few problems with the self-improver route:

1) takes a long time
2) some airlines steer clear of self-improvers, for whatever reason
3) do you really save money? you might be getting paid (peanuts) to instruct, but would rather get the training done, get with an airline and start earning some real money

reckon market will have picked up in 2 years. if i was thinking about doing my training now, would still head to one of the integrated training providers.

finding a bank to give you £100k, now there's the big problem.....!:ugh:
Get saving people.

£100k madness
 

By taking your time and paying as you go you will save a lot of heartache and bank charges!

There are thousands of options for those with the guts and creative minds!

GA is NOT dead by any means! Just look at the revival that diesel engines and NetJets have had on that industry in the EU.

If you are brave enough to leave Blighty/EU for a year or two you can get Aussie, US, SA licences for a fraction of JAR ones and convert them later WHEN you have 1000s of hours which might include B200 Flying Doctor work, Lear time or C208 Bush flying.

There are jobs out there for those willing to sweep hangar floors and instruct for £20/hr.

There are even UK FI jobs paying £20k plus for SEP work.

Keep a LONG term goal - it might even take 10 years to get the ATPL and Jet job you desire. Far better that route than to go straight from Seneca IR to B737 with nothing in between - such flying might become a job just to pay the bills no interesting flying stories to tell in the cruise above FL100!

ANOTHER REASON TO GET EXPERIENCE (or at least to keep learning whilst working at the Golden M):

There is an interesting article in this months RAeS magazine where 14000 hr Capt J Cox laments the loss of the pilot apprenticeship culture we had before the likes of Ab Initio courses and pay for your Jet Type Ratings.

He states quite bluntly that Airlines now have far lower experience levels in the cockpit with new FOs learning from relatively less experienced Captains than those of around 10 years ago. This he puts down to the rapid promotion rates in response to the last pilot shortage.

The thrust of the article is about High Altitude Aerodynamics and 3 examples of Airliners stalling. In each case the pilots lost control and disaster ensued: October 2004 CRJ FL410, August 2005 MD82 FL330, Aug 2006 Tu144 FL410.

Most of the Sim Stall training on a type rating course considers situations between FL100 and FL150 where engines and wings respond quite differently. Most simulators are unable to accurately represent aerodynamics beyond the stall - rather like many are poor simulating landings.

So the training needs to change or the pilots need to arrive with more experience / knowledge of the operating environment.

And yes it is possible to operate a B200 at FL350 but beware of windscreen cracking and possible de-pressurization!

Some sound advice rolling through here. If you're hell bent on zero to hero I'd leave it at least a year. Pick your moment carefully. It works well if you manage to get a job upon completion but you can end up on the scrapheap too if not careful and have to bolt things onto it just to keep current. I reckon we're looking at least 2-3 years before any tentative movement towards cadet schemes again.

The Flying Doctor's pilot
 

Some very good advice in this thread. I am currently at University in Leeds doing the Aviation Technology degree. Just starting my final year, I must admit I was planning on applying to CTC and becoming 'Zero to Hero' by about 2011. That is obviously not going to happen now.

I have always thought that the Aussie/US option would be quite interesting for hour building. It's always been a bit of a joke in my head but the more I think about it, the more flying B200's around the Outback for the doctor sounds appealing.

I am very serious about becoming an airline pilot (one day) and instead of working for a couple years to wait for the climate to improve, I would rather get flying.

What I'd like to ask is how viable and real is the option of flying post or doctors around Australia?

Cheers

You'll have to have the right to work to work in Oz. None of the 'your grandfather shagged someone called Sheila so you can work here...' business. B200 work is classed as quite high up on the career ladder there. I hour built in Oz and really liked it.

Thanks for your thoughts

I understand the whole 'right to work' thing for Oz. I have A LOT of relatives living in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne so may be able to use them as a sponsor to get over there. I eventually want to live out there myself anyway so it's more of a positive move for me than a side step.

Yonni,

Just a little "heads up". Folks don't do RFDS (flying doctor) for "hour building".
Depending on the market you'll need any from 3,000 hours TT with significant twin and turboprop time, a min of 200 hours night time and preferably some bush/remote experience.

The vast majority of airline pilots in the UK wouldn't have the experience to get a look in.

One night we thought we would play a trick on a CTC cadet who was waiting to see where, and on what he was going to be based.

When we explained that we had found out that all this months cadets would be flying a Twin Otter in the Highlands and Islands, he almost shat himself and legged it off to enquire why he wasn't on a 75 etc.

21 and doing the islands for your first job, i would have laughed my head off with joy. Makes you wonder:hmm:

Tonker, that is the most stupid post Ive read for a while. Not all CTC cadets expect things to be handed on a plate. There are the few who do but that is found in any organisation and is certainly not the norm.

What Tonker is basically saying is that CTC cadets demand only the best airlines and aircraft and that CTC cadets are spoilt brats so lets play tricks on them....that is completely stupid. No other word for it. Most of them are like any other wannabe in the industry and the vast majority are far from being spoilt at all. In fact I do not know a single cadet who managed to just trump up 60K by asking mum or dad for it although I am sure there are one or two. Most ex cadets in the hold pool are working all sorts of random jobs now just to keep head above water.

If you are a lucky CTC cadet and made it through the course and popped out the other end at a time of industry boom you would likely have seen good prospects on the horizon for a secure jet job. After all that's what it says on the tin. Having parted with atleast 60K in the mean time it is concerning to say the least when there is pretty much not a single job out there. Let alone a jet job. I would say that right now if any flying job at all cropped up that was lucrative enough for a cadet to pay the loan off they would be flying. Sadly the loan repayments are such that most cadets are better off now working on the ground to quench HSBC's thirst until there is an industry turn around. Either that or declare yourself bankrupt but that is never a popular move and is not a nice situation to find yourself in. The other problem that is looming is the currency issues. IR renewals etc etc. Not cheap and sadly beyond budget for all but a few of the hold poolers.

The situation as it stands would have been almost impossible to predict 2-3 years ago when most of the holdpoolers applied to CTC. And CTC itself couldn't have seen it either until quite late when airlines suddenly started reacting to strong market downturn. That is the joy of being in an industry that is notoriously unstable and as a wannabe you would unfortunately be on the sharp side. WWW has some good points regarding the current climate and I can say that if it was me applying now for CTC I would hold off.

Some good info, advice, and different sides to the argument here guys. thanks..

My situation at the moment is slightly at a stand still. 25 years old, very low flying experience. Having always been keen on a career in the industry I was given some poor advice during my school life. During numerous discussions with career advisors, I kept being told "yes, although you have A's at GCSE Maths, Science and English - and for that matter all of my GCSE's other than 3 B's, you'd be far better chosing A'levels that you'll really enjoy, and then make career decisions once you have to decide on a degree choice."

So, off I went and decided to do A Levels' in Geology, Geography and Design & Engineering. When it came to career / degree choice I was again pushed by the school and the parents to concentrate on either engineering / architecture / business.

Wrong move! Went to university to do business, which I ended up really disliking. After flunking 2nd year and re-taking, I decided to leave half way through the re-take. Got a job, which developed slowly but surely into a better, and better job.

After realising that I should have done what "I" wanted to do after my school career, I'm now, and have been for some 3 years, been improving my personal situation to enable me to make the plunge into the industry.

Having seen my cousin go through cabair some years ago - who now sits in the RHS for a well known heathrow based transatlantic co. flying A340's I can see how hard work and a level head when it comes to finance makes the dream possible.

So, after leaving university, I got a job, and have been working my way up within the company ever since. Moved to London 2 years ago and after 6 months was in a position to buy an appartment with my sister to a) live in and not pay someone else my hard earned cash in the form of rent b) attempt to make money on the property, which obviously hasn't really worked out but on a fixed rate mortgage my pockets aren't being hurt, and it's now a case of keeping hold of the property long term to make a return c) give myself something to bargain with during potential discussions with the banks to lend me more money to fund training.

Now, over the past year we all know whats happenned to the economy, housing market, airline industry etc... This leaves me in the following position; earning half decent money which is paying the bills on a property which long term will pay a return, able to pay for the odd flying hour here and there, and I haven't committed myself in the form of more debt to enter an integrated programme just at the wrong econimic time. Now unfortunately my income vs outgoings on mortgage etc.. means I can't afford to start the modular route right now but I am in a position to pick the right moment to enter into an integrated or modular programme - it's just when !!

Some guys here are saying do it now as there will be a shortage of "newbies" in 24 months due to the lack of loans going around, some are saying begin a modular approach if you can afford to, but do not plunge into a debt riddled integrated system for atleast 1 year from now...

I think I'll keep a close eye on the market, keep picking up as much advice as possible from pprune, my cousin, cabair, CTC, Oxford, etc... and pick my moment to take the dive with as little risk as possible... thats the big word ! RISK .

Hopefully we'll all get what we want, and meet in Hong Kong for a beer some day.. just not in the next 24 months. :sad:

On yer bike!
 

Quote: " The situation as it stands would have been almost impossible to predict 2-3 years ago when most of the holdpoolers applied to CTC. And CTC itself couldn't have seen it either until quite late when airlines suddenly started reacting to strong market downturn."


Actually CTC's managers and Training staff are experienced enough to have seen at least 3 cycles in this industry. It is the poor wanabees that didn't see this coming and paid £60 to £100k upfront who did not look at history.

It is not hard to find a flying job if you persevere - it may take 100 rejected CVs but you will get there as an FI or Hour Building CPL. Far better to be building time without having to pay for it rather than working at MacDonalds waiting for the banks to loan you £60k at 10%APR. By which time the upswing may have happened and you graduate into another downturn.......

Lots of schools are looking for instructors - just get a copy of Pilot or Loop magazine or even Google it! - you might even do a deal on the cost of the FIC course with a job at the end of it. There are still plenty of potential PPLs out there and Trial Lessons are often seen as good value gifts at £100 for 40 mins in the South East.

Also worth joining AOPA and or IPA/IPF for more contacts.

Other options include Safari Flying in Africa - but the competition is fierce.

This business is ALL about who you know and the connections you make. You can't simply rely on 3rd parties to do the work for you! Join a flying club and buy an FI a coffee - yes it's hard work at times and no the money is not good but your flying skills will improve and you will be in current practice when the interview comes.

Airlines like Flybe love FIs. Those that teach........

To quote another thread:
 

From Daisy120's post:

"I seem to detect an underlying groundswell from the Uk potentials, that its Ok to rest on the laurels of a good CV and wait for the Fly B or EJ boys to welcome with open arms. Forget it. get your arse out into the paddock and get flying...anything...but show them that the dedication is founded on the passion to fly and not the parameters of conditions of service, a gold crusted ATPL and the ticks in the box. It is afterall, an apprenticeship. One that is built from handling aeroplanes in hard environments, putting brevity to the "war stories" and being true to the industry you have chosen as a career. Good luck."

And from me:

All the best to all you hard working, skint yet still potential Jet/Turboprop/Long Haul/Short Haul/Freight/Military/Instructor/Air Taxi/Crop Spraying/Parajumping/Glider Towing/Balloon Riding/Bush Flying/Medevac/Ground Effect Craft steering Captains whatever route you follow!

Remember to enjoy the ride as much as gaining the qualifications!

Thanks Topslide... :ok:

One can understand the frustrations of your average 'wannabe' in the current climate... ; poor economic situation, airline industry cutting back, becoming difficult to gain unsecured loans, CTC losing their ability to secure a bond etc.. yet as a wannabe, completely ready to go, ready to put the hard work in and ready to learn the trade of your life and build the career you are so madly obsessed in developing… believe me, thats me! But good things come to those who drink Guiness! don't actually like Guiness. :oh:

Unfortunately you can also see the impatience of some ‘wannabes' who can get their hands on the money required for training; but are allowing their impatience and for the dream to cloud their vision (or lack of it) of the certainty of the elusive jet job within 14 months from day 1 of training…

Everyone comes from a different background, different age, different acedmic grounding, but everyone has the similar dream of landing that "job"... plus everyone has a choice to make about the different way into their first right hand seat job...

However, unless you've got cash and more cash to back up a a potential sour investment or loan, not everyone can understand the risk and liability implications of making a wrong move..

It's not chess, you can't re-start a game if your Queen gets snatched and your King's about to be toppled, you make a wrong move when it comes to the money and you lose out for longer than some might realise.. even if you manage to get a license.. get yourself an ATPL, it's a fact of life that if there aint any jobs, there aint any jobs !

Not to be all doom and gloom, not one graph is one directional, things go up; great! and come down; ouch! then go up again...great!

My point : everyone's different - but the industry is the same for everyone !

smart decisions pay :ok: