PPRuNe Forums - CAE Pilot provisioning

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CAE Pilot provisioning

Very curious about the CAE pilot provisioning programs https://pilot.cae.com/Careers.aspx

I have applied for several airline programs and really don't know whether I should expect anything good out of it or not.

If anybody have feedback on that I would be most interested

I applied for the Instructor position in India a few weeks ago but havn't heard anythinf from them - did you get a reply at least?

Well I completed and 'passed' their assessment process in Madrid about 9 months ago. Even got a phone call with the good news. Never heard from them again, but then again I didn't chase them up because I was offered something else. I have since been curious if they were actually a serious proposition or not.

No reply whatsoever.
I guess most of their so called partner airlines have forzen their recruitment until further notice like any airline (that I know of) at the moment.
I didn't hear good of them anyway. Friend of mine was called by them for a SELF FUNDED sim test with Denim Air after months of emailing. After having been told by the airline that he did good, he was never contacted again and it's been 6 months.
Apart from being as frutrating as it gets, it has in my view all the ingredients off a bloody rip-off.
And I've other stories alike.
So I'm doubtful as to they are to be trusted.

Thanks for that Robin and Tony - good luck to you guys

me too... i applied for several airlines but no answers yet.

Did anyone receive an email from CAE about Air Asia? Is the assessment in Madrid? has anyone been successful in getting a job in the end? how did you raise the funds for the type rating?

Just got that email

Yhea I also just got that email. I am not sure if they are genuine or not. Something just doesn't feel right? If anyone can give any further information it would be much appreciated.

I got it too, anybody with any info???? Is this the same as the oxford course ie. a pay to fly or is it a job opportunity?

I got it too,I have received an email for an assessment for AirAsia, but in this email they don't say nothing abut the price of the type rating,it's very strange,anybody with more info?

hello i got the mail to for the air asia program but it doens't state that you have to pay for the line training.
It is well clear that they give you after completing the type rating they give you a 1 year contract and you pay for housing and transport to an from base and al the rest involved.Really they don't give you much information about it all so i don't find it very safe to put my money in for the moment.

Hi Zacary,

My name is Ryan and I am really interested in Air Asia. Any information about the program would be appreciated!

Looking forward for your answer

best regards

Instructor Position in India... Have you done any research???

are all the programs self sponsored?? a few of them (air asia included) make no mention of type rating costs or whether or not it is something you pay for or not.. any answers anyone??

expect to pay for most... TR done at CAE centres approved by respective countries/Airlines

This should explain what the Air Asia Programe is all about

Sent to me when I requested further info after being accepted for an assesment: Sorry about the formatting but it will give you an idea of exactly what CAE are offering on the Air Asia deal - I hope it helps

ANSWERS TO PROSPECTIVE PILOTS’ QUESTIONS
As per Malaysian regulations and Air Asia policy the hiring conditions of foreign pilots are the same applied to local pilots

What is the required experience to apply to the program?
Valid license with valid IR/ME
Valid Medical certificate
Fluency in English (minimum aviation English level 4)

Flight time experience

First Officers
100 hrs total flight time as PIC experience
Theoretical ATPL

Senior FO
5000 hrs TFT of which,
1000 hrs on type, or
2500 hrs WB aircraft (EFIS)

Captains
5000 hrs TFT of which,
1000 hrs as PIC in the aircraft (A320/A330/A340)
The Malaysian Civil Aviation Authority and security clearance will be the one finally determining the suitability of the applicant

What are the minimum requirements for direct Captain entry?
Experience above 5000 hrs, of which 1000 hrs experience in other WB aircrafts (with EFIS).

Pilots matching this requirement, once selected by Air Asia and type rated on A320 will be joining the company as Captains.
What are the requirements for upgrade to Captain?
Air Asia keeps at its own discretion the decision on upgrade to captain Air Asia pilots, following the company needs and candidate performance

What is the maximum age for applicants?

• Captains: Minimum 26 years - Age limit 55-60 years as long as his license permits beyond 60 years
• Senior F/O: Minimum 26 years - Age limit 55-60 years as long as his license permits beyond 60 years
• First Officers: no limit
Air Asia Pilot Provisioning Program 1/4 issued October 13th, 2008

Once hired, what salary can I expect?

First Officers
Flying 80 hours your monthly compensation will be in the neighbourhood of:
If CPL (frozen ATPL)
Basic salary of
RM 4.000
Sector allowance of
RM 45/hour
If ATPL (with 500 company hours)
Basic salary of
RM 5.500
Sector allowance of
RM 55/hour
Captains
Flying 80 hours your monthly compensation will be in the neighborhood of:
Basic Salary of
RM 12.000
Sector Allowance of
RM 195/hour
Night Stop Allowance of
RM 200/night (A330)
Other benefits
Captains
A) Hospitalisation scheme of
RM 18.000 /
disability
B) Loss of license of
RM 500.000
C) Out Patient treatment
RM 1,000/
Year. Excess paid by pilot concerned.
F/O
Loss of licence RM 300,000

Travel

Pilot will cover at its own expenses the cost related to reach Kuala Lumpur from its home base. Air Asia will offer the pilot free tickets using Air Asia network.
Accommodation
Upon joining the company, Air Asia provides accommodation in Kuala Lumpur during the first 14 days. Air Asia team will assist you to find the most suitable accommodation during your contract.

Uniforms
Air Asia will provide pilots with the uniform
Air Asia Pilot Provisioning Program 2/4 issued October 13th, 2008

Transportation

All the transportation during on duty days shall be at pilot expenses
Personal travel Air Asia provides ID90 on Air Asia network. Additionally every year a pilot will receive 6 tickets to be used at its discretion

Food
Air Asia pilots have discounted food at the office cafeteria

What would be my taxation rate?

Malaysian Taxation is related to several variables (type of contract, family, duration of your contract, time expended from your arrival, etc). People department will inform you about your personal case.

What kind of contract do I get (permanent/temporary)?

Following the applicable regulation the maximum hiring period for an expat is 1 year. If there is a change in the law Air Asia keeps the right to offer you an extension in the contract From what Stage in the program will I get paid?
You will be effectively hired (and paid) by Air Asia from the First working day after they land in Kuala Lumpur.

What bases are available? Will I get my preferred base?

Available base: Main base will be Kuala Lumpur. The company will offer you other bases upon availability and company policies.

How does the roster look like?

For the time being the roster is 5 days on and 2 days off per week. It is foreseen to be adapted once the company reach the number of crews estimated.

Nr. of flying hours per month/year?

The expected monthly flying hours is about 80 hrs per month up to 90. The maximum total flight hours per year following the regulation is 1000

If I do this investment, will Air Asia guarantee a job?

Air Asia will issue a letter expressing its intention to hire you, if you satisfactorily complete the required training, obtain the licenses and ratings required to operate Air Asia’s aircraft, and upon a positive security clearance.

How can I obtain a Malaysian work permit?

Air Asia will help you obtaining the work permit. This process starts once you join the company.

Air Asia Pilot Provisioning Program

issued October 13th, 2008

Is it a self sponsored course?

Yes

How is the course price?

The A320 type rating course is mainly delivered at CAE Madrid and CAE Kuala Lumpur. Base training, if required, to be delivered in Spain.

If no additional training is required, prices are as follows:
-
From ground school till simulator skill test – 24000 EUR
-
Base training – 8000 EUR
Pilots without jet experience will need to conduct a Jet Familiarization Training before starting the type rating course. The price for this additional training is 2000 EUR. License and medical renewal costs associated to maintain license, ratings and medical will be on pilot expenses.

IMPORTANT NOTICE
The overview included in this document is for information proposes valid at the time of delivery. If required, this
information can be changed without prior notice adapting changes received from local legal regulations, civil aviation
authorities or the airline. CAE will adapt the updated information as soon as provided. This information has no
contractual and biding value.

830 euro monthly salary with no accomodation and no transportation??

They gotta be kidding... With that salary one can barely survive... Not to mention how is one going to repay the 24000 euros of the TR??

add on the flight pay also, dont forget at approx 80hrs and its €1600 , still crap, but more accurate math

I seriously can't believe some people are gona pay for such a crap position....

U.N.B.E.L.I.E.V.A.B.L.E

Take that or hit the tax payer's money??? What would you do?
If someone has the $$$ for the TRT and can survive on a fraction of what their counterparts are getting at EI, BA, FR etc in KUL, then why not!!!

PayScale Malaysia - Malaysia Country Salary, Average Salaries

Have a look at this then you can compare wages!!!!

i personally think that many offers are bogus!

example: india has pull the plug, and can not hire foreign copilots anymore.

If you think Air Asia is bad!

Lion Air is :mad: Bull***t :ouch:

Read this...

Lion Air wants to pay u roughly EUR 500 a month :eek: and expects you to pay EUR 26000 TR (all inclusive lodging fooding approx) for a B738 :D and a 2 year contract.

And $10000 payback := in case the contract get terminated!!!!

Id like to hear what you think.... :ugh:

AirDriver :}

:E

I heard the T/R for Lion Air was 17.000E?

Monthly salary would be 514E. Flightpay per hour would be 1.24E.

Flying 80-90 hours a month. Total in a year +/-1050. That's what Lion Air wants.

You should get accomodation and tranportation...

But 650E a month....:{

SanHor

Lion Air TR CAE Amsterdam 21000 EUR + 19% Tax
20 EUR a day Accomodation + Food extra ...

Yes: Accommodation and Transport is Free! But that doesn't cost too much either in Indo

I heard that some people who were successful with the application for Air Asia, went onto do the TR on the A320, then when it came for employment time, some of them were chopped!

Does anyone have anymore information on this? as all Air Asia provides is a letter of intent, clearly not a legal contract. I am not convinced this is a risk worth taking!

hi Jimsmitty01, there is a mix up here, oxford ran a course with line training , you had to pay for your TR then €10k for line training. The guys basically signed up spent their cash with no interview, no sim check, nothing, then just before the TR ended, oxford announced that they had an inteview and sim check to do. So with money spent, they went off to KL for interview with AA and they were nearly all rejected!!!! ( 3 out of 8 got in) I know this to be a fact as my mate was one who unfortunatly didnt get it. Personally I think oxford have alot to answer for here.

The CAE provisioning is not the same deal as previously mentioned as CAE are actually recruiting for AA. Hope this clears this up.

Thanks Tony2f! I didn't mean to spread rumors, I think this is an example of Chinese whispers! This is also backed up by a chap called Zachary who is in the know!

Either way there is a cap on most of the european TR programs for now, but I expect this won't last forever!

Cheers

First off all, this is disgusting reading.

This airlines that participate in this "pay for training and you maybe get a job" schemes are unprofessional and take advantage of desperate pilots that are willing to get abused by these scumbags.

Have some pride in your job as a professional pilot and don't even go this route. This scumbags will take your money and run, if you are lucky to even get a job they will abuse you.

This is nothing short of pimping!!!

Shame on this assholes :=:=:=:=

Shameful Business

Well first off all I understand you have to defend your "great" program and all the "happy" guys that finally got to fly that shiny new jet.

To compare pilots with Doctors and Attorneys is pure silly. They spent money in university to get a degree.

The disgusting part now is the "fine" airlines you represent wants to push the training cost over on the pilot.
This is of course based on supply and demand. They prey on guys that are desperate enough to fork out huge amounts for a copilot job that pays "peanuts". They will never be able to repay the exaggerated cost for the type rating based on the pay scales posted.

Who the heck pays over 20.000 Euros for a B737 or a A320 type rating anyway, this things go for 6K to 12 K USD stateside.

To sum it up, a REAL airline pays for all training cost, after all this is the cost of doing business. I can understand they maybe want you to sign a contract that you promise to stay and work for minimum amount of time so the company can offset the training cost.

To pay 20.000 Euros for a training program where you are at will, is insanity. I really hope even desperate guys think twice about this. Bottom feeder airlines like this, continue this programs because guys are dumb enough to sign up for it, and fork out huge amounts of their own hard earned or loaned money.

Anyway just my two cents :ok:

aviatorisu, I see you are back peddling your wonderful program.

I am sure you guys have nice new simulators and fancy training material. I would expect so if I have to pay twice what its worth.

Unfortunately you keep on missing the point I am making.

I will say it once again, the cost of training should be carried by the airlines you guys are representing. To push the training cost over on the pilot is nothing short of disgusting.
After all its just a job at best, if you actually reach the right seat.

The Airlines you represent are bottom feeders at best, in third world countries, with the matching third world pay. No labor rights or unions.

If you fail ,or the airline decides conveniently that they don't like you, or need you, then you are stuck with a pretty substantial bill.

But you can keep on argue all you want, but I hope all the guys that are thinking of this pay for job programs, think about it seriously. No REAL airlines operate this way. Training cost is after all the cost of doing business.

Its your money, and the chance you will get burned is HUGE.

These days, Paying for a TR is not a taboo! So stop trying to make it one...
I know many people who have been offered a job on the condition that they will pay for the TR...so what if its 6 months salary !!!
Its better than sitting on the freekin job seeker allowance...
so hush the bitching!
:cool:

Good for you that you are willing to pay to get a job......but at 24 years old, I am sure you are itching to get into that shiny new jet.

Once you grow up a little you will also understand that pay for training is wrong!!!....this rots the industry and undermines what unions have fought for a long time, good pay and decent schedules and working conditions.

Guarantee you WONT find that with none of the airlines that's represented in the CAE program, that's if you EVER see the right seat.

Bend over and get :mad:ed!!!.....it's your cash.

What Cobblers!

The fact of the matter is that the economic climate has made the low hour opportunities extremely rare.

If people are willing to pay ratings they will - end of.

The various unions, CC's that fought for these terms and conditions under stand this to be the case. That's why only muffled complaints are ever heard out with this forum.

It is a sad state of affairs but it IS the way things are.

Storpikk:

As someone who has applied and been interviewed (awaiting reply) through the CAE provisioning, and as someone who has looked at what you pay for stateside, the extra money is just.

However, that's not the point, the fact is - if you have 250 hours and you had a wad of cash , would you pay now and get the job or "wait (possibly a long time) for someone to pay it for me out of principle", the answer is that the second camp would be very small, this is also the kind of people that will moan and call SSTR guys "pay to fly wannabes". They claim they do it for their love of aviation - well if thats the case surely you would pay it?

I'm lucky in that I budgeted integrated and went modular - the money I saved can go towards a TR and that will give me a better chance at getting a job. I don't see where thats wrong? I understand that alot of freshly qualified guys do not have the money available to do this, however thats the nature of the beast.

You also talk about terrible conditions. Im sorry but how many people PERSONALLY do you know work for any of those airlines? People don't come onto pprune to say what awonderful day working they had, they come on to bitch & moan, you get a distorted view on what alot of these airlines are really like. I know personally of two guys who I speak to regularly that went through CAE and are now working and loving it.

I'm sure you will still try to start a fight here anyway but so be it.

Well junior if you are 19 and have 250 hours of total time, I don't think you should sit in the right seat of a A320 or any transport category jet.....or at least I would not put my family on that flight.

Maybe better for you to go the old route that most pilots have taken in the past, it takes some work. I know its a quick fix to pay some money and you have a job, but some instructing and then fly some freight will do you good.

As for the companies that CAE represent I know very well, I fly a wide body in Asia myself.

:ok:

Well at 19 I believe I would be just as safe as anyone else - not only is it multi crew ( and I won't be a captain), I would still of gone through the same training as anyone older than myself, if anything a young mind learns faster. I've also been involved in aviation almost half my life, and while personally have only got 250 hours, I have spent hours and hours flying with other people and that has to count for something in the way of experience.

Well the "old route" as you call it is non-existent at the moment. FI jobs (esp. for someone restricted low hours etc) aren't easy to come by, and I would happily fly anything for a first job but FI has been discussed, air taxi under JAA isn't an option, glider towing/parachute dropping/aerial photography are all small industries that generally there aren't openings for people with no knowledge of the gliding/parachuting etc. . Military - I won't pass the medical, so really what are my options? I would have no problem with any of these jobs if they were available.

It still doesn't distract from my original point - if you have the funds - why would you not do it?

Good Luck to all of you......I am sure the "desperadoes" are lining up, and CAE is laughing all the way to the bank. On an investment scale, it's a very poor investment.

Do your home work , on the home countries and bases for the Airlines that CAE represent.

They are third world countries where you have no rights as a foreigner, and airline safety is poor at best. Malaysia is getting rid of most foreign workers now because of mass unemployment and the goverment there prohibits hiring foreign labour. Indonesia has one of the worst airline safety records in the world with multiple major accidents in the last few years. Not to talk about Nigeria where you will be escorted by a armed guard with an AK-47, between the airport and the camp you will be living . I think this "gullable" kids have no idea whats waiting for them. No unions, no duty regs, unsafe operations day in and day out, risking your life and license. If you ever get to work for them, they will fire you at the drop of a hat.

And to you "subhuman", you would be living up to your screename in my cockpit. 250 hours what a joke. I would maybe let you sit on the jumpseat and watch. There is no sim training program in the world that will make a 250 hour pilot safe in a transport category jet, you are just a trainee still with a very wet PPL and zero real life experience. Experience you should get on smaller equipment.....

But once again this is just my opinion, I am sure you guys are "hot shots" that know it all. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

But you will find out reality soon!!.......I am just serving you a dose of reality here!!.

Firstly I have not gone to any "third world country" with CAE, if you did your homework you would see that CAE provide pilots for european carriers as well.

Also why wouldn't a 250 hour pilot be safe in a transport cat. jet? These days they have a high level of automation and are designed with safety first - not to mention again that I might be flying this aircraft - but its still the responsibility of the captain - he still makes the final call in the unlikely event of a major problem.

Based on your argument - a friend of mine who is training to be an electrician should not be allowed to fix peoples houses because he lacks "real life experience" and would be dangerous, the fact he is an apprentice under someone with years of experience counts for nothing...

I don't see myself as a hot shot, I am fully aware that there are thousands of people who will fly the hours I have flown in 3 months - but by the same token there are thousands of people who have started flying for airlines with the same amount of hours as me on exactly the same aircraft and have had no problems at all.

The fact of the matter is you refuse to see this point of view - fine. We are just going round in circles so I'm going to leave it at that.

lol...ignore the asian wide body jet pilot ...
because of people like him, CAA had to introduce the MCC course :ok: