Is there going to be any jobs left for me? :(
 

Hi guys I am new to the forum as you can see, this is only my first post so hello to you all.

I’m 17 years old and living it up in "sunny" Scotland. I am due to start Initial Officer Training in the Royal Air Force on November 16th 2008 and upon successful completion, progression on to my 2cnd phase of training to become a Fighter Control Officer (no mole jokes please) lol.I have signed a PC (permanent commission) so I’ll be discharging when I am 40 if all goes well.

It has always been a life long ambition of mine to become an airline pilot and I still intend to capture this dream, but I have my concerns.

Will an airline take me on at 40?i currently hold a PPL and IMC with around 220 hours under my belt. I intent to continue flying, in my spare time, while I am in the RAF and progress through the training syllabus i.e. next step ME rating, then on to CPL and ATPL, so that I can hopefully walk in to a cockpit job when I discharge from the RAF. Is this a good idea or will I be wasting my money? What are the alternatives?

Any help you boys and girls can give me would be gratefully appreciated

Thanks in advance,

Even 6 months is a very long time in aviation terms, so worrying about what the next 23 year will bring is totally pointless.

Enjoy your new career and the flying in your spare time. There are lot's of pilot's who started at 40 so don't let that bother you ether. There are many many many threads on that subject if you are just looking for some reassurance, just do a search.

:ok:

If your dream is to be an Ailine pilot then why are you joining the RAF as a fighter controller?
Why not ditch the RAF and get on the seniority list 22 years early...

Because i can't afford to train myself atm in one go so i tried to get in to the RAF as a multi engine pilot but i failed my medical,my 6ft 4" frame was a bit too big for their aircraft,3mm too tall in the sitting height,but i still want the forces lifestyle and right now that appeals to me more than flying.

If you want the forces lifestyle, then how can you say it's your life long ambition to be an airline pilot? The lifestyles are not even close. Two very different ball games!

As for not being able to afford an ATPL(f) at the age of 17. Errr, not many others do either! Work and save for 5 years. I know the ripe old age of 22 seems old to you, but it aint. Probably still a bit young if you ask me.

What's the market doing in 23 years? As has been said before, we don't know whats going to happen next month. However, if you want me to stick my neck out, I'd say that a low hour 40 y/o has got an up hill struggle to get a first job.

Sorry if I seem a little unfair, but I just don't understand why someone who dreams of being an airline pilot signs up to the RAF for over 20 years in a non-flying role.

I tried the RAF route. They told me my eyesight wasn't good enough. Then tried to flog me some ground position. I didn't hear what it was because I was already out of the door. I suspect you stayed behind to listen to the hard sell that they usually give to those not even old enough to drink or vote. Little short of press ganging if you ask me.

If you want to be an airline pilot, save and train accordingly. If you wan't to be in the RAF, go ahead and join (sounds like you already have).

If you want to know anymore on training for an ATPL, feel free to ask me. Feel free to PM me. I'll gladly help you.

I think you need to actually decide what you want to do first.

Good luck

EK

...and with potential mergers been the name of the game, we are running out of career choice employers - by leaving it I would say you run the risk of never making it...

If to be a pilot is your dream...then why aren't you working towards it now? Modular route/start a slow ATPL groundschool...

On the one hand you say you've always wanted to be an airline pilot, on the other you say that the miltary lifestyle appeals more to you at the moment than flying.

....erm....sorry to say it, but if you interviewed like this it's unlikely you'd get a flying job.

Also I'm always dubious about ambitions to be an 'airline' pilot - most pro pilots I know just wanted to be pilots.

How you could stand not to fly until you're forty if that's your real ambition, I don't know.

You need to do some serious soul searching, and understand that the people you will be up against for flying jobs at any age will be totally committed to that one thing.

Sorry if that all seems a bit hard or judgemental, but you need to confront these issues now or you're going to be in for a very frustrating twenty years.

I'm surprised the RAF let you in at all with grammar like "Is there going to be any jobs left for me"......

...... It would never have happened in my day..........:}

I have to say that had also crossed my mind I'm afraid!!

I've also just noticed you are 17, but hold a PPL/IMC with, in your own words, 'around 220 hours under your belt.'

But.............you can't afford commercial training???????????

ooook.........how did you afford 220 hours of probably pretty useless PPL flying AT THE AGE OF 17?????? Have you any idea how few 17 year olds have 220 hours of flying, a PPL and IMC rating????

The above said with a laugh in my voice. You've got to be joking mate, or you've seriously wasted a lot of time and money.

A word of friendly advice - the people in this business who'll be giving you the job can see right through any bulls$*1t, so whatever you do, cut it out right from the start.

If you're a wind up, then I've bitten, big deal, hahah, gosh you're a real wag.

If not, are you big enough to explain yourself and benefit from the advice of those who've been there, done that???

Ball's in your court peeps.



Edited for incredulity.

And another thing...................

Let's assume you've got 220 hours, a PPL and an IMC rating. Don't you realise that potentially if you'd spent your money wisely you could have nearly completed a modular CPL and be well on your way to being one of the youngest instructors in the country?

You do want to be a pilot don't you??

AARRRGGGHHH...........the scary mix of the early hours, too much red wine, a career in aviation with less time to go than's already past, and the weird and wonderful world of the wanabees.................:ugh:

Like a lamb to the slaughter.

I suggest you do some research into how you go about getting a fATPL as from what I've read you don't seem to understand the process.

Will an airline take you on at 40? In my opinion no.

And finally:

Q: Why is it bad to tell mole jokes?
A: It's mole-itically incorrect
Q: What is a mole's favorite movie?
A: The Green Mole
Q: What do you get when you have a bunch of moles acting like idiots?
A: A bunch of Moleasses
Q: What line from Shakespeare do high school moles have to memorize?
A: "To mole or not to mole, this is the question."
Q: What happens when a mole bites a dog?
A: He becomes Moleicious!

S88:ok:

Any thoughts on our advice AWACS_bhoy?

Not here to slate you, just interested in helping if you're genuine.

It does exactly what it says on the tin - it's just an opinion. I never said it was right or wrong. They are just my thoughts on the subject. This is a forum after all, isn't it pilotmike?

If you submitted your CV with no previous flying job, at the age of 40 at my employing airline, I can near as dammit say that you won't get offered a job.

Come on, let's be realistic!

S88:ok:

Also, AWACS asked specifically if he'd get an airline job at 40. While nobody can predict the future, based on the contradictory aspects of his flying to date and his career plan, then 'no' would appear to be more likely than yes, would it not.

I was in a very similar situation. Offered a Fighter Controller comission in the RAF after schoarships/bursaries etc but one night alarm bells started ringing as I'd always wanted to be an airline pilot. The next day I went into the office and told them I wanted to go home. Years on and here I am.

It was horribly difficult to do but you'll know what you want. Think of yourself....don't worry about letting the RAF down......you are but a number :)

You can't have everything in life. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to benefit the future. There are lots of things that I want to do in life however I know that in the long run I won't be happier doing anything else.

Is this a classic example of having one's cake and eating it?

S88:ok:

(edit due typo)

His question was "Will an airline take me on at 40" (assuming he's got an fATPL). Your answer, "yes". Now I may be wrong but I'm interpreting all of the above to say "You will be offered a job at 40".

I don't think it's fair to build this young mans hopes up. I'd rather enter the job market at 40 with the realistic vision that I may not get a job than to enter it after being told by someone on a forum that I will get a job. The person who's prepared for rejection will take the bad news much better than the person who has spent the last 23 years 'knowing' that he'll be successful.

So you're saying that whats recently happened in the industry will be a true reflection of whats going to happen in 23 years time?

I think it's best I let most of your previous statements speak for themselves.

S88:ok:

This is a really pointless arguement.

Will I get a job at 40?

More like: How long's a piece of string?

The more important factor in this question is not age, but the person in question. Of course people have got jobs at 40 and well above. It's just a case of impressing at the interview and firstly having an impressive CV to get you the interview.

You can't make a sweeping comment like you will or you won't.

The OP however needs to do some real soul searching, because it seems to me he isn't that bothered about flying if he's going to take an RAF commission due to wanting the lifestyle more than wanting to fly.

I think you'll find that is called age discrimination and is illegal. :hmm:

I understand that but it doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. If an airline doesn't want to employ they'll find a way of getting out of it. Just because you've applied for a job it doesn't mean the company is obliged to give it to you, whoever it is - airline or supermarket!

S88

Guys thanks firstly for all the replies, the harsh and the nice, it is appreciated and I’m not one to storm off in the huff if I don't like what I am hearing, I take it in and do something about it.

Firstly I was left £33,000 from my grandmother 4 years ago so about £7000 has been spent attaining my PPL and Night rating and a further £3000 on my IMC .Obviously to scratch 220 hours in my log book I’ve had to spend a fair amount around £3000,but I’m young and I wanted to fly so I used the money that was there so I have around £20,000 left which I am going to use to further my flying.

The situation with the RAF is, as I previously said I have always wanted to be an airline pilot but the cost's are high. As a hobby I decided to join the air training corps just to do something aviation related. I then started really getting in to it and the military structure so I thought, how about join the RAF as a ME pilot, scrounge my training off them then head off to the airlines. But the more and more I got used to the structure and way of life of the military the more I wanted it so when I was told I was too tall to be a forces pilot I thought I’ll still join the RAF and get all the benefits and way of life then later in life I can join an airline that way I get to live two dreams (greedy I know but who doesn't want to live their dream?) Right now I can honestly say I want the RAF more than flying but I still want to be a pilot whether it's an instructor or an airline pilot LATER in life.

You are all saying I should get out and work and save up the required funds, I understand that but maybe you are forgetting I will actually be getting paid in the RAF so I will be saving. I know there are plenty of schemes out there etc but I will never ever take out any sort of loan no matter what it is for, I am dead set against it so I am going to be doing it the hard way and self funding.

Any further advice is gratefully appreciated.

Well I've got to say all the credible airlines I know of, employ pilot's of all ages. By not employing anyone aged 40+, they are ruling out a wealth of talented pilot's who have some priceless life experience. This often translates into positive feedback when CRM and command assessments are considered.

Anyway, this subject has been done to death so I'm bowing out before the lock/merge.


:ok:

AWACS_bhoy you have a PPL and 220 hours. With £20,000 you could probably do your ATPL's, CPL and IR! With that completed you could go airline job hunting. :)

All I can say is that there is no certain answer. You may or may not be successful in getting a job weather it be airline or instructor. You just can't tell. It's impossible to see what the industry will be doing in 23 years time. It's a chance you're going to have to take if you're certain about living both your dreams.

If you've got 20K at the age of 17 you're in a much better financial position than most wannabes and I'm sure you'll use that to your advantage!

- if thats how you feel then I'd suggest you concentrate on giving the RAF your all. Sometimes it's best to concentrate on the things that inspire you the most. Doesn't mean to say you can't continue your flying whilst you're working.

S88

I've heard many different things about peoples career choices over the years. This one would rank as one of the most odd. You've spent £13k on basic flying training and GA flying at the age of 17 and you've signed up for a full service RAF commisioned role that is ground based all because you desire to be an airline pilot.

Fair enough. No criticism. You are unusual and have sparked an ill tempered debate - no harm in that, they are often the most informative.

Lets just clear up the age thing. Decades ago some airlines with long seniority lists wanted recruits to do 15 years in the RHS and then 15 years in the LHS and thus have a fully rounded career. Zip forward to today and the picture is very different. You've got a large and fast growing fractional jet scene where acne and youthful looks ain't what the client is looking for. You've got most of the LoCo's who just want a name, a telephone number and not to pay for your type rating or give you a pension. If they get 5 years out of your they've had plenty of return on their very limited investment. If you were 55 they might think twice - 40 is nothing.

You've also got the age discrimination law which was a massive change last year that most people totally missed or massively underestimated. It is now just as illegal to not employ you because of your age as it would be because you are black or gay or Muslim or female or disabled or a member of a trade union.

I think you've taken a meandering and wasteful path to an airline job thus far and I am highly concerned about your decision to join the RAF as an 18yr old fighter controller. Do you know much about the trade and its future and your service career prospects?

I wish you well.


WWW

Ok, deep breath, here goes.....

(First a quick aside.....funny how some posters seem to think their opinions are actually facts while ours remain simply opinions! But anyway, that's for another day).

AWACS, great you replied. Still don't quite understand your figures - under £14 an hour for your hour building - wow! And with hindsight, that £33000 would have gone a long way to getting you an fATPL and very near your dream already. There you go.

But hey, you've still got £20000 - at your age this is such a leg up into professional flying. A little work in something that you don't have to sign your life away for and you'll be qualified at a very young age. This means a huge advantage in experience and seniority down the line.

I'll be blunt though. You're so well placed to make your flying dream come true and yet you seem reluctant to make it happen. In my book that means you don't want it enough. Simple as that.

By the time you're forty you could have thousands of hours on jet aircraft, be a Captain, perhaps a training Captain even (all dependant on aptitude and a good dose of luck of course). Or........you could be coming out of the RAF and starting to look for a job. If you get one, a lot of the Captains you fly with will be younger than you and have far more experience than you could dream of...........

In summary, it's your choice, as it should be. But for anyone who loves flying, one dream seems so out of balance with the other. No harm to fighter controllers or anything, but it's not like you're saying your other dream is to be in the Royal Marines or SAS..................now that I could understand more.

Only you can tell..............

(I still have a problem understanding your finances, but that's another thing).

Good grief, a man from "north of the border" not wanting to pay for flight training? Whatever next?

:E

(I still have a problem understanding your finances, but that's another thing).

One of my friends from school who is joing the RAF as a pilot (we are due to start IOT 10 weeks apart) his dad is one of the chief exec's for shell so he's minted anyway he is a PPL flyer and has his own piper Cherokee so getting a shot of that is simple and cheaper but obviously I have had to fork out hire charges at some point at one point I was paying £140 an hour each time I wanted to go up so to be honest my maths may be slightly out but I guess £13,000 is a good estimate

£3000 becomes £13000.........as the man once said, never let the facts get in the way of a good story!

I'm not being sarcastic AWACS, just it's hard to give you a balanced opinion when the goalposts keep moving!!

Anyway, we could start going round in circles.

Personally, I would take myself off on a long walk, and think about which dream I couldn't live without. Imagine that whichever one you pick, you can't have the other. Don't think about other people like parents, friends, god forbid even ppruners.........it's your life.............try to be honest with yourself.

Good luck.

"I think you've taken a meandering and wasteful path to an airline job thus far and I am highly concerned about your decision to join the RAF as an 18yr old fighter controller. Do you know much about the trade and its future and your service career prospects?"

To be honest I confuse the hell out of myself sometimes. I am the kind of person that gets an idea in their head then tries to act straight away on it, but with regards to the RAF I have taken a very different approach because to be fair its a dangerous job and the threat of me being killed during my service and never making the cockpit job has crossed my mind many times.

I have no regrets about the money I have spent so far on flying because I have loved every second of it and would do it all over again if I could.
As far as fighter control is concerned I didn't put it down as my second choice and then go on to accept it not knowing anything about it, come on I know I’m Scottish but I’m not that stupid! I have had various visits to Boulmer and Waddo even getting the chance to go through some basic scenarios on the simulators and although it isn't as exciting as flying I still get a real buzz from it and enjoy it. As far as career prospects and opportunities go, how many airline pilots do you know that get to experience half as much as any serviceman or woman? No two days in the forces are the same and that's what appeals to me, civilians have life experiences soldiers experience life.

"£3000 becomes £13000"

it's a pitty your reading skills weren't as good as your maths skills,if you had read my previous posts you would have seen the breakdown:

£7000 on PPL + £3000 on IMC + £3000 on general flying = £13,000

AWACS_bhoy,

It sounds to me like you've made up your mind already. Do some more thinking, be decisive and make a decision - it's only your time you'll end up wasting.

Do you not think that could happen working for an airline? I'm sure I don't have to remind you of recent events where it's not gone quite to plan. Have you thought about what you would do if you were to lose your medical because in all honesty - that's just as likely/if not more likely to happen than you getting killed in service with the RAF!

S88

i don't quite understand the point you are trying to make,that sounds like a negative point to going commercial? :S

Yeah, it's as easy as that! :rolleyes:

AWACS_bhoy, no it's not a negative point to going commercial - it's just a fact of life. A chance that any pilot takes.

S88

Do you like working in enclosed spaces?
Are you allergic to the Sun?
Are you fascinated by flashing Christmas Tree lights?
Do you resemble a mole?
Are your closest friends Albinos?

If the answers to the above questions are YES....

...Join the RAF Fighter Control Branch!

Post all enquiries to:

Sqn Ldr I C Bogies
RAF Royston Vasey
Outer Hebrides
Scotlandshire

:E:E:E

Goodness me. This thread has become even more ridiculous.

Firstly, with bollocks maths, it's impossible for us to give any serious advice. AWACS bhoy, you seem to be a confused lad.

Now, say 50 hours for PPL and 20 hours for IMC means you have spent 150 hours 'general flying' (220-50-20=150). You say this cost £3000.

3000/150= £20 per hour. It would appear that it is your maths skills that leave a little to be required.

Secondly, after you claim that you can't afford an ATPL at 17, it turns out that you are actually the only 17 y/o that I have ever known that CAN! If it is you dream to become an airline pilot and you get £34k in your lap, there should be no decision to be made. Especially since you can get hour building done for £20 per hour!:eek:

Thirdly, the age thing has been done to death. Yes people get taken on in their 40's. No it isn't very common, in fact quite difficult. Yes, you probably will have a family to look after then. No, you will not be as flexible. If that's the way it works out, then so be it, but I certainly would not plan it that way.

Finally,

Been reading the glossy brochure?

Moral has never been lower. Living conditions never worse. Living in a bunk bed and eating in a mess tent.

I see the Armed Forces marketing dept is working well.

EK

My word, is this topic still droaning on. It is the same as any job, a friend recently finished a 5 year course, doing dentistry, he comes out and has to apply for vocational training at a practice. On the open day for one of the practices there were over 150 people, for just ONE place. Welcome to the real world, just get your training done then worry about it, people retire and leave companies weekly, just focus on your training!!!

As for going to the RAF, well, if you want to be a commercial pilot ultimately in my honest opinion you're wasting your time. Nowadays you're tied to the RAF for a reasonable length, the training is nothing alike, and once you leave you still have to go on conversion courses and pay all the fees to fly commercial planes!

EK4457 - I'm glad someone else has seen the confusion in AWACS-bhoy's maths (as he presents it). I felt it would be a little churlish and petty to start defending myself over the comment from AWACS about my reading skills!

If you're still there AWACS-bhoy, better to play the ball than the man eh?

You're in a fantastic position to become a professional pilot if that's what you really want, and if of course you have the skills required. Don't blow it or you'll look back in twenty years with huge regret.

As a slight aside, it's interesting you've chosen to comment on the sums, but have failed to discuss most of the other points that have ben raised. The important ones, you know, about what you really want!

You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last to find this kind of decision difficult. And of course I may be entirely wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if you're thinking about what other people will think about your decision. Make it for yourself. Don't worry what other people will think of you. Do what you feel is right for you. Whatever that is.

well all I can say is it's a good job I am not going to uni to do maths although I do have a B at advanced higher maths lol.

right you are all equally correct, I can now see that I am confused and uncertain about what I want I do want the forces but I do want the cockpit job. What if I was to go NCA for 5-10 years then go do my professional flight training? is this a better option? If I do decide to do this is it better/cheaper to train in the states? Again I want to reiterate I do not want to take out any sort of loan in any shape or form.

AWACS_bhoy,

I suggest you read this before you ask any more questions:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

Hopefully you can answer a lot of your questions yourself by reading the linked threads.

S88

This is a bit ludicrous now. You claim to have enough cash to do an ATPL , you claim you want to be in the cockpit . However with this lifelong dream , bearing in mind you have only been a sentient being for about 15 ,that is only 17 years you have now elected to join the raf and sit in a dark room for 20 yrs :hmm::hmm:
Look matey , if you truly have the money do it now , if that is what you want , and to be honest the evidence supporting that isnt exactly strong. If not get a job and save up or at least look at other options . CTC for example partial sponsorships etc etc .
But DO NOT !!!!!! commit to a long commision in the arse farce if that is not what you want to do , twenty years in the pitch black surrounded by sand is not condusive to happiness , unless you WANT to do it ! You want to be an airline pilot remember