chelsce, you are probably more stupid than Jamer. If thats at all possible. Unless you are the same person.

If you haven't noticed most if not almost ALL of the comments have been from people who are far more qualified to have an opinion on the issue than you are since almost all of them are EX-CTC. You are not in airline and haven't even finished the licence...you look like the clueless wannabe in this case. The advice been given out here is from people having done the course and have already entered airline flying or and WWW's case, a captain for one of the partners who flies with us regularaly. I think he knows.

I absolutely DESPAIR.

Hmmm greggs and mcdonalds...didnt know they were hiring. And yes....for some of us these are the places we are working at due to being LAID OFF.

And no one was bitter until you and the other lad jumped on here banging on about loosing houses and not particularly caring. Come back in a year and a half once you have sat in the hold pool for a year or two and it actually happens and post the same thing. We are in a financial nightmare and you two come on here clueless as ever claiming you wouldn't care. Lucky for some.

P.S. I wasn't joking in the first paragraph. Many are at present working at these exact types of companies after having already flown an airbus/boeing through CTC.

Chelsce! Welcome to the firepit!

If we're honest, the likes of John Smith, SA242 and I couldn't care less about the likes of you and Jamer. We're know you're screwed and there's nothing you can do about it. Like all the other cadets in the hold pool, you now have no choice. You're stuck with it. It's not your fault, you just have to deal with it.

The reason we're speaking up is to stop anyone out there who is thinking of starting the course in the non too distant future from doing so. Out of all the people who have posted here recently, I have the upmost respect for GuyAK who has taken ours, and others, advice and decided to stay well clear for the time being.

Well done to GuyAK. Well done for having the maturity, common sense, intelligence and guts to step away from something that you've always wanted to do. In years to come, it will be the likes of you who will be sat on a beach somewhere (either on a long haul trip or through the millions you've made by going into another career), looking back with great pride at this decision you've made. I truly and honestly mean all that.

What John Smith has said is totally correct. For the likes of Wingus and Dingus to sit there in your current position and claim that everything is great and encourage people to continue to sign up is truly incredible. Too much time in the Dibden spin machine it seems.

This is not just aimed at CTC, it's aimed at every FTO under the sun. Stay clear. Stay well clear until you can see for sure that things are picking up in the way in which we'd all want.

Dear all,

just wanted to apologise if I may have offended anyone with my perhaps slightly biased view particularly being slightly ott with the whole house loosing scenario, so again apologies. It was just my way of venting my frustrations I suppose. I am not stupid. I know the Market is in a bad way and perhaps my opinion will change as time passes as a jobless pilot but we will just have to wait and see. So particular apologies to
other former cadets of ctc who are finding things difficult. I only have the ctc propaganda to go on as to what former cadets are up to. Needless to say they don't talk about loosing houses and bankrupcy.

Anyway i'll stay positive and the point I was making is that I have no regrets about ctc at this point.

Whilst I understand where people are coming from I just think it's a shame people are dropping out of possible training due to the opinions expressed on this forum.

I've said my piece now people and without my Tongue in my cheek so perhaps any replies may be less abusive.

Good luck.

I can't be bothered with this anymore. I actually feel bad about some of my comments and yet the abuse continues.

Everyone abuses each other with the protection of a keyboard and screen when they definitely wouldn't have the balls to say it to someones face. So you can
just get on with it.

It's not a shame if people are dropping out of applying to CTC due to comments on here, it's a very good, sensible, smart thing to do. The market is terrible at the moment. Come back in a couple of years and see how it's going then.

WBV

Jamer says:

No it isn't. They are saving themselves from ruining their lives No one's saying they should never do it, just not now. And these aren't opinions on these forums, these are facts. It is a fact that a lot of ex ctc will be going bankrupt in the next few months, myself included. It is a fact that there are hardly any jobs. These are not opinions.

You say that there's no point in having a go at you, but there is. As someone else said, this thread can dissuade people from making a horrendous mistake. This isn't about CTC, I'm not disputing that their training is good. This is about the state of the industry. You can't expect to make outrageous, naieve and stupid statements about not caring if you lose your house and not expect to get flamed for it.

People like you don't seem to understand the difference between being negative and being realistic. Myself and many others on this forum are giving realistic advice to people thinking of starting training now. Just because we're saying don't train now, it doesn't mean we are negative, we are simply telling them that things are bad now. You seem to think this is not being supportive. I disagree, I think it is being supportive.

Although your comments are infuriating, I do feel sorry for you and people in your situation but you have to man up and face reality.

I definitely have the balls to say this to your face. If you were just down the road I'd gladly come round and tell you this. PM me your number if you want and I'll give you a ring.

Silly bravado getting in the way of a sensible discussion again.

A sensible discussion kerosine? What are you, insane or a CTC manager? These guys needed to get flamed to teach them a damn lesson.

I thought sensible discussion was the normal communication medium between people who disagree on something?
This is not a parent/child or teacher/student relationship so find it quite arrogant that you would think it's your place to 'teach them a lesson'.

Edit: I can see however your previous posts indicate you're ex-CTC and going through what most would see as the worst case scenario of bankruptcy so understand why you would have such strong feelings on the subject.

It makes me angry that they profit from the ruination of others and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. They are evil, that's all there is to it. As there is no justice in this world the best we can hope for is that there is a God and he can judge them one day.

There is only one thing left to do in this situation...

BANZAI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MAY THE EMPEROR LIVE FOR TEN THOUSAND YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.indiana.edu/~ealc100/01samurai-kabuki.jpg

Ok, good idea, but after consulting with a legal expert about the merits of your idea I was informed it could result in some legal problems for me!!! As a result I have been advised not to carry out a samuri sword attack on CTC managment!!!! Thanks for the input though.

CTC Are Dishonest
 

Went through Dibden Manor years ago. Ongoing career..... BUT

The management perpetuated a tissue of lies through their instructors and gofers, which we all laughed about amongst ourselves. (All experienced pilots, most left seat on heavies). Those were easy days, 2003/04, with jobs lined up for those who kept their heads down and went through the motions. High standards, corporate propaganda to accompany.

We knew they lied, and we predicted it would all end in tears when their (CTC) greed came up against market difficulties. Today the "difficulties" are immense. As is their greed. CTC have the audacity to continue, making claims which need challenging legally.

Nobody should consider spending money with these sharks. Unless they have a cast-iron case for litigation prepared.

And the same applies for Oxford. No better. In some respects, worse.

Greggs/Morrisons/Tesco/Boots & c. Better job prospects for trainee managers, and no debt.

The problem is that many "intelligent" prospective professional airline pilots believe that they are better than the rest. CTC /OXFORD will outwit you.

...cringe
 

Greetings,

I rarely post anything on this but I thought I'd offer my view. I'm a CTC cadet.

Taking a positive view.... I will have completed my training to a high standard, in a short period of time.

However, the right hand jet seat is being pulled out from behind us as the cost burden on the trainee increases.

With 20/20 hindsight, I'd have carried on in my old job, done the modular route of hour building etc, kept working until the last moment before doing my IR and then apply to a turbo prop operator.

I know, it's not a jet and I'd likely have to fork out for a type rating there too but I'd still save a huge amount of cash. Besides, UK turbo prop operators are really competitive now in the domestic flight market.

There are all sorts of views etc being posted here, mine's just one of them and I'm not blaming CTC, but to all the people who are reading this and are thinking about applying (to any FTO for a full time course), all things considered, I wouldn't.

Hindsight is best
 

102roadlegal... I agree that with 20/20 hindsight I would have done it the modular way and kept working too.

CTC has been hit really hard by the financial crisis that the only way they stay afloat is by saying they have high quality training, but the fact is they dont anymore. The pass rates for CTC cadets has dropped and will continue to drop.

I have to agree with you again.. Maybe CTC will improve again in years to come, but untill then I wouldn't apply either.

Any more details on this?

An interested ex-cadet...

Are you asking why are the pass rates dropping?

Several reasons I guess..
1. There are a lot more "I can pay cash cadets". ie Selection consists of "ability to pay" not "abilities"

2. The cost cutting in these organisations is huge. (esp. last 12 months)

3. Quality of training is limited to bare minimums now. (I was told CTC has cut upset training (extreem UA's) and other non essential training.

4. One good thing is CTC/OAA will not kick you off the course anymore (due to poor performance), because it will cost them too much.... Have you heard of anyone in the last 6months been removed?

I hope I have answered your question.

CTC had around a 1% "failure rate" for Wings Cadets which was quoted in 2007...so that would account for all of the CPs to that date that had finished. To my knowledge, it's not any higher now and I've not heard of a wings cadet being kicked off the course, as far as ability is concerned anyway.

In short, I don't think cadets were ever kicked off the course due to poor performance.

Yes they were. I know this 100%.


Edit to add: Poor performance is subjective! I don't think all were kicked off due to poor performance, some weren't treated fairly IMHO. Which in my opinion is worse!!

I can personally remember 8 in the first year or so.

I know of several over 2008-2009. Although you must bear in mind that statistic is only for Wings Cadets - i.e. only if you get kicked out/leave after the foundation course. And seeing as the foundation course was taking 4-6 months there was a lot more time for people to leave and it not count!

I can remember a few, i'd say the rate was higher than 1%. The selection process is a little less involved now so that may have an effect as well.

WBV

Ps ditto what one post only said

Agree with the guys above. From CP3 through to CP19 or so there was an average of around one cadet per course getting chopped. Not every course lost someone, but I remember one CP in particular losing more than one cadet. Nearly all got the bullet during the IR phase in BOH. The Duchess wasn't quite as helpful as the Twinstar when it comes to NDB tracking!

I dont know how they can quote a 1% failure rate. Where was this from? (The selection rates were about 1%) The failure rates up to about CP59 were averaging one per CP. One CP i know of lost 3!!. So the average is at least 10%.

My point is: there has been none chopped since cp59 when the financial purse strings were tightened... The NZ division was just about closed because they were not making money. Now they have to at all costs. Chopping cadets means loosing income.

And yes the selection process is a little less involved now. It costs money to have long selection processes.

Don't need to see it differently... A new scheme that sees the cadets pay even more! (Probably because the training quality has deteriorated and CTC cant afford the odd X or Y flight anymore).

The advantage of this situation is we don't get kicked off anymore.

Beers anyone?

Bitter pill
 

Whether the training has deteriorated or not, it's a side issue really and I'm not going to get involved.
The appeal of forking out for foundation course, training then this new "contract" with Easy is zero. If you are a current iCP Cadet then you're arguably at less of a "disadvantage" as, once you're through the flying, your wings colleagues are not getting a type rating so you're in the same boat ie, pay for it.
Granted, it's not the full amount but it's still a wad of notes. The Ts & Cs are the real knife to the throat.
Some (many) of us are stuck. In the brown stuff really.

Repayment of loans may be possible or living may be possible, not both !

I've heard this "if we all stand together, we'll force them to offer a better deal" type of chat and realistically, that's never going to happen as it only takes a few folk to hand over more cash and the viscious cycle continues.
Should I see the glass as half full.... ? I do try but really, I can't make this look good :(

The trouble is that the writing has been on the wall for a while now and really anybody who signed up for the CTC scheme from early mid 2008 onwards must have known they were taking a huge gamble if they'd done even the slightest bit of research. What worries me more is that people are STILL signing up for the scheme. What do eJ need to offer before people wake up?!

gyni, that should be, what will people have to offer to ezy before they wake up!!!!!! You want me to pay how much a year to work for you..........?

Ladies and Gents please wake up. You are all fooling yourselves! I'm a current EasyJet pilot and I have all the sympathy in the world for the guys who have come out of CTC this year to find themselves left well and truly in the poo.

Unfortunately for all you guys coming from CTC next year and onwards you will find far less sympathy from the pilot population at EasyJet, you guys got yourselves into huge debt in the middle of a recession with airlines going bust. Honestly what were you thinking? What is even more baffling is that CTC are still sending full courses out to NZ, again what are you people thinking?! It makes me question you ability to operate a aircraft at commercial level, clearly you must be slightly mentally unstable to sign up to this course with the industry in its current state. On top of that you are directly affecting the T&C's of the pilots you one day hope to be working with. Are you all that stupid and selfish? Of course when you finally finish you will be demanding the support of the current Easy pilots to support your cause.

Abandon hope all ye who enter the great CTC machine

In reply to the beginning of your post and to make it clear to others;

The cadets that are starting TR's now, started their CTC training in Summer/Autumn 2007. No sign or very little sign of a recession and a great placement history with funding through an unsecured loan. These are the guys (and gals) that have been left to consider whether they want to continue working in temporary jobs, whilst paying off their loan (without being able to afford to live) OR going bankrupt (whilst being able to afford to live)

The cadets that started in 2008 should have seen this coming and stayed clear. However, at the time, CTC were the giver of all news great and encouraged young impressionable "kids" to start, still with an unsecured loan.

Let's make one thing clear here, the folks going through TR and Line Training, and in the hold pool at the moment have UNSECURED LOANS. Mummy and Daddy did NOT pay, they are NOT going to lose their house and it is up to little Jonny to find the money, or face bankruptcy.

So,

Cadet A (let's call him Steve) has finished his CPL/IR with fATPL. He's working in a temp job somewhere, earning under a grand a month (not enough to repay his loan even), has rent and bills to pay (so can't save anything) and has just been given this latest offer.

Steve deferred his repayments to HSBC for 6 months, hoping that a job would come along on the old scheme, where he would do his TR for nothing, then 6 months line training on £1000 a month, then a FO position on £36k a year. That would be great. Instead, the ONLY option available to enter an airline (ie. a job with a large enough salary to repay his loan) is with CTC as a Flexicrew pilot.

Now, I don't want to go into the details of the agreement, those of you who have seen it know what it involves. But basically, it's a lump sum up front followed by pretty poor pay for a long time after. As I said before, he has a choice, to take it, and hope that there's something more to follow or to turn it down.

TURN IT DOWN!!!! I hear you all shout....

Ah, but then Kevin, (who doesn't really talk to the other cadets, and has very rich parents) decides he can live on pittance and takes the job. Where does that leave Steve - at the back of the holdpool again, with no prospects for a long time, still in a temp job, still not paying off his loan and ultimately to bankruptcy.

So why should he take it? Even if he can fund the initial cost, then he still won't have enough to live on and pay back his loan. But - like the guy that's gone to Africa, like all of you who started out somewhere - he has F all to lose. Even if he joins with the rest of his CP in saying no, there will be people to fill his place, other cadets, from OAA, modular cadets etc etc the list is endless. So he has to say yes. He'll beg and borrow from family for the 10k and say yes.

Unfortunately, a few select individuals keep harping on about saying no, and you're degrading Ts and Cs for all blah blah, yes they probably are. But who set those Ts and Cs in the first place? Why not turn your anger onto those who make the decisions, join Balpa and actually acheive something, like securing your OWN job, because this affects every single one of you.

Easyjet know the exact position these cadets are in, and exploit it to the point of slavery. The only people that can stop it are those within eJ itself and BALPA. CTC cadets don't have BALPA recognition so they can't do anything.

What you have to remember is that CTC actually provided and STILL provide cadets of high quality and caliber (I know, I've flown with them as well as other "cadets" from other FTO's), although they are low houred they are good at the job, learn quickly and try hard. The Captains at eJ obviously don't care if they are sat next to someone with bankruptcy looming and stress induced fatigue, who has flu but can't take the day off because they don't get sick pay and they have rent to pay. When the sh1t hits the fan do you think you might prefer someone who is on the ball and able to actually help you? Because I would.

To come back to your post, the people starting CTC now, or airline training in any form, are either extremely deluded, extremely rich, or extremely thick. Now is not the time to start training, nor has it been for the last 18 months.

We need to stick together and get eJ to raise the conditions for all. They made a profit last year (quite a substantial one), much to everyones surprise, and yet they aren't willing to pay for a decent workforce. I really really hope it comes back to kick them in the nuts.

This was only meant to be a short post, if you feel really opposed to what I have said, please put it directly, without insult and we can discuss it as mature adults.

djfingerscrossed
But they still remained (even with tears) due to the financial burden to CTC if they are removed... hence use the emotions to offer them the iCP and make them pay more! Not like in the past where CTC would remove them to retain Quality Graduates. Wouldnt you agree?

Yes, people are going further into debt funding CTC's money making scheme. Companies start off developing a good reputation and then ride on this reputation to make lots of money by cutting quality... I think we will see this more in the next few years. Another reason why it's not a good option at the moment.

Queues around the block outside every high street branch of Northern Rock?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ton203.jpk.jpg

BBC NEWS | Business | Rush on Northern Rock continues


Note the date - 15th Sept 2007.

House prices had declined in a straight line every month all year in the USA. Interest rates were being slashed, the media was awash with talk of recession, finanacial crisis, bank runs, house price crashes, credit crunches.

Its 2 years and 4 months since Northern Rock. I think anyone who gambled £70,000 on the prize of a jet job at a major airline post Northern Rock wasn't properly pricing the risk. The financial weather radar was solid magenta by Autumn 2007 but still they took off.


WWW

Good day to you all.

I have been reading your posts with interest. However, you all say with venom 'NOT TO TRAIN NOW', and if people are training now they are STUPID etc etc.

Would it not be a good time to train. after all, all industries are screwed at the minute so forging a career anywhere is unrealistic. therfore, i could take time out now to train and not really mis anything. Further, when the market returns which it WILL (listening to some of you, you think the economy and world is over, it is not). Therefore If i started trainng with say CTC by this time next year or so I would be nearly trained and thus emerge in a new stronger economy.

you comments are much appreciated so long as they dont just slate me.

Good day

Bingobongo,

Don't be lazy, read the last 20 or so pages. If you can't be bothered, there are a few of us on here who will happily rip you apart.

Anyways, the main reason for my post...

Can someone please let me know what the current total cost is for cadets starting at the moment?

I just want to know about any Foundation course, wings course etc. Don't worry about the new type raping scheme which is under discussion, just want a rough figure for the initial training, both Wings and ICP

Thanks.

P.S. Yes, I could have looked harder on the CTC website but strangely enough, the total cost wasn't very clear.

BingoBongo,

Do not pay any attention to the dooms day chanters. NOW is a great time to train. The recession will not last forever. Even now they say green shoots of recovery are evident.

My recommendations are: go forth and pursue your career. The best schools to consider are; Oxford, CTC if you are going integrated, which I would recommend you do as this increases your possibility of getting into an airliner after completion of your training.

hope this helps.

Very funny. ;)

Now stop it.

Ta,


WWW

well i fyour not going to answer bingobongo i feel i have to.


Well why not call across to him as you are using the same connection as bingo?

And GuyAk from earlier in the thread.

Pathetically inept trolling.

Regards
Rob PPRuNe Towers

Yes, you probably could. If you're happy you've done your research properly and this is your take on how things will pan out with the economy, then fine - go ahead and train.

However...

It's becoming clearer by the day that the CTC programme is no longer the route to the job it once was. I've always been a staunch defender of the training on here and continue to be so - the standards are very good, it's a great experience, etc. but the days of finishing the course, going to an airline, doing your six months' 'experience' and then disappearing over the hill into the sunset waving your nice permanent full-time contract are over.

My personal view is, when the economy picks up, they won't be coming back. The airlines (EZY in particular) have made no secret of their desire to force down T&Cs, particularly for new joiners. As I understand it, from what CTC have said, these FlexiCrew terms being offered to the guys now will remain the best available for a long time. For once, I believe what CTC say. The rot has set in.

Part of the attraction of the course used to be the direct route into an airline upon completion. The course was (is) expensive compared to doing it the modular way, but you accepted you were paying a premium partly for the continuity and the high standard of training, but mostly because of the chance of landing a good job at the end of it.

The course now costs £69,000 for the Wings phase plus NZ$17400 (£7500ish at current rates) for the mandatory Foundation phase. So you're looking at a basic £76,500 up to the end of the CPL/IR/MCC phase. This is getting on for £12k more than it was just three years ago (£60k + ~£4k) - an increase of nearly 20% in three years! (Hope that partly answers your question, sharpclassic.) Then of course you have to factor in insurance costs (which have rocketed) and about £5k of living costs, and then finally - as things stand, unless you're unbelievably lucky and BA reopen the doors just as you're coming through - another £10k for a type rating to actually get you the job.

Now, bingobingo, you tell me why you think it would be a good idea to start on this course, paying that completely ridiculous sum of money to train for a career where the overwhelming likelihood is that the only option on completion will be a job on a FlexiCrew contract barely earning enough to cover your loan repayments, never mind afford a home, a car or any sort of lifestyle. Because, the way things are now and with what is happening to the current crop coming through, I can't see for the life of me why anyone would think this would be a remotely good idea. On the other hand if you train modularly and cheaply, you'll be able to afford the full TR cost with easyJet or Ryanair, join as a contractor on similar wages and you'll still be thousands of pounds better off.

And on top of all that, pretty much the only way of finding the finance is through securing it on property! Are you really prepared to stake a house - yours or someone else's - on all this?