It's called a price increase for little extra cost to CTC! Got to keep their new owners happy.

Hi All,

I have been through the search facility and trawled my way into many posts looking for advice regarding the selection.

majority of posts with decent info are backdated to mid-to-late 2000's.

Just wanted to know from someone whos been recently, the maths part.

1)Still 15 questions in 15 minutes?
2)Are the questions multiple choice?
3)Are you given a specific time for each question? so you cant progress forward or backwards through the questions at free will?(so for example you could be on question 10 at only 6mins in/ can you skip forward or back at free will?
4)obviously I don't want anyone to give away the actual questions but I have been practicing

#Long multiple/division eg 5687x478 285/15 (+- too)
#Ratios
#Basic algebra (real basic like x-10=60 Whats X
#squares,cubes and s+ cube roots
#area of squares, rectangles, triangles(was there any Circle questions using PIE?)
#Speed distance time, but i what context I don't know, are the some fictional problems that could potentially catch you off guard? like two aircraft heading towards each other at X speed, how long before they meet? or is it a simple as you travel 20miles in 10 minutes, how fast etc?

What other topics should I cover, I know its GCSE level I just want to make sure I do not fail this test, I know people say its easy, they only want your money etc but id rather not fail at this stage.!

Hope someone can advise.

Thanks.

Hi GoProPilot,

I just went through selection six days ago (passed and everything), and so should be in a good position to answer your questions.

There are indeed still 15 questions in as many minutes, all multiple choice and all pretty easy - though I could have just been lucky. You can spend as much time as you like on each question, and go back to completed questions.

There's no algebra involved aside from two questions where you're asked to work out the weight of fuel using a specific gravity value, but this is all very carefully and clearly explained, and certainly nothing to worry about.

I only really practised long division and multiplication, and finished with a good few minutes to spare - I'd really recommend learning Vedic maths using TecMath (tecmath - YouTube) for this test. If you can manage a long division problem in around a minute, you're at around the same level I was on the day Disclaimer: this isn't to say that you absolutely won't get any other types of questions, or to contradict anyone else's advice, but rather that I didn't come across those other ones.

If you want to know anything else about the selection day, let me know and I'll try to help.

@planedrive,

CTC have an introductory offer where you can currently benefit from the new additional parts of the course at the 2013 price - a bargain at £86,800. This is only offered, however, if you begin your course before January 2014; everyone else thereafter pays £89,800.

Hi Steve

Thank you for your reply.

Thank you for answering my questions I really appreciate that and your blog is outstanding(since you've been there recently its totally relevant).

I am practicing everything you've said.

I am applying to wings without any attachment to airline like easyjet MPL or Monarch, flybe etc

So what worries me with the recent introduction of the EASYJET MPL and Monarch MPL and even the BA FPP+Qatar surely all these cadets will get the jobs first, where does this leave the normal WINGS cadets? because those airlines where already taking cadets from the pool. EZ, mon and BA going to have right hand seats for all the 20+ per month coming out of wings!?

Where are these cadets going to go (to keep their 99.9% placement record)

Is this flexi crew thing with Easy still going on? Did they mention it to you in the presentation in the morning?

Cheers.

Happy to help, and I'm glad you liked it.

The FlexiCrew arrangement is indeed still going on, in fact they mentioned in the morning presentation that the vast majority of their cadets go on to work for easyJet as FlexiCrew employees. Considering their recent substantial profits and new aircraft orders this doesn't look likely to slow down, but then you never know.

As for the trend for larger airlines taking on cadets through MPL courses, it's hard to say without many figures available, but it does look as if the proportion of cadets going through this route will only increase. But that's not to say there's no market for us untagged lot: an airline will only take on the minimum number they anticipate needing through MPL courses. If one of those airlines does particularly well and decides to expand, as with easyJet, there's a pool of graduating cadets of a decent standard ready to go.

Besides, there are always airlines that won't run these schemes with whom we'll stand a chance.

I would take whatever CTC tell you in a presentation designed with the explicit intent to sell a course to you with a very large pinch of salt; it's of course in their interest to paint a rosy picture which may not correlate to reality.

Also there is no evidence that MPL scheme airlines are taking the minimum number of pilots they need as you put it, for all we know they could be taking on vastly more pilots than they currently need with a view to job creation in the future.

It seems more likely that these schemes will increase in number and capacity - and let's face it CTC will not be bothered whether pilots join airlines through the hold pool or through the schemes they run as they get paid either way.

CTC selection
 

is there anyone has done the ctc selection recently? i really need your help..because i have decided to do my selection with ctc in jan 2014. i dont know how is the selection like.all i know they have maths test , aptitude test,teamwork?,and 1 to 1? just wondering how many aptitude test they will given? and how is the teamwork like? i will be very grateful if anyone can help me.

Re-assessment
 

Hey guys heading back in December for my reassessment with ctc, failed on the maths by one mark (bummer) anyone else heading down on the 5th?

I'm going on the 4th, anyone else in this boat?

CTC navigation techniques
 

Complete change of topic but still relates to CTC Wings.

Can anyone who has just finished with CTC in NZ help me with this please...

When CTC teach you how prepare for a nav flight they get you to draw a top hat at each turning point. The hat has three layers and something goes in each layer (altitude to fly the leg etc). Can someone tell me what they are please.

Also, at each enroute check between turning points we were taught to draw a circle, divide it in half and then divide one of the halves in half once more. Again something went in the semi-circle and the quarter circles. I think it was something like expected time of arrival, actual time of arrival and time to next check. Can someone confirm this for me please.

Thanks in advance.

So that's where all the extra money at CTC goes? Hats and circles on the chart?

All sounds a bit like over complicating things to me.

Changing topic here, I've done a lot of research and reading on CTC and it seems that many do tend to go on to join their partnered airlines after finishing the course.

I am curious, have any cadets gone to join other airlines that aren't partnered with CTC? Have any ever gone to, just to name a few, Norwegian Air Shuttle or Air France or KLM, Transavia, Vueling, TAP Portugal, SAS, Iceland Air, Ryanair, FlyNiki or AirBerlin etc etc? Are cadets bound to the holding pool and the airlines that intake from that pool? What are the job prospects of joining any airline practically?

OAA used to have an employment page on their website listing different airlines and numbers about graduates and their employment stats. Unfortunately CTC never had one like this but it would be very useful. This information would be valuable and appreciated!

Cheers and many safe landings!!

It is rather less linear and more dynamic than that. Put simply, yes, you can complete the course and find work wherever it might be available. You are not tied to any holding pool. Many airlines will stipulate minimum experience requirements for direct entry pilots. Unless they operate a cadet scheme of their own it is unlikely that many graduating pilots with only their training hours would satisfy those requirements. Those airlines that do operate cadet programmes will (in the majority of cases) affiliate to particular Flight Training Organisations.

CTC operates a number of programmes leading to the completion of the basic professional licence qualifications, as well as providing intermediate and in some cases part of the advanced training requirements for the transition into specific airlines cadet programmes. These courses follow a number of pathways although much of the training programme is common to all of them. For example the "Wings cadet" course applies selective criteria for the completion of the licence programme, as well as the Airline Qualification Course (AQC). Successful graduation leads into the primary selection pool for many of the "partner airlines" that draw from it, in accordance with their own current requirements as they exist from time to time.

CTC also offers a "Wings IPP" programme when a candidate either doesn't satisfy the "wings cadet" selection criteria, when it may not be available, or when they elect that particular route. This programme utilizes exactly the same training syllabus as the cadet programme, but the risk shifts more to the candidate proving their ability in order to be placed in the primary selection pool upon graduation. It also doesn't include some of the intermediate costs (AQC for example) that are an integrated part of the cadet programme.

Some airlines (For example British airways FPP, and some other airlines pre-selection programmes,) utilize the wings cadet programme with a conditional offer of employment at onset. Depending on the level of financial support as a part of the contract, these graduates may be financially bound to discharge their commitments before they would be able to seek alternative employment in the (probably unlikely) event that they should elect to. If the conditional offer of employment could not be fulfilled by the airline, then it is likely the graduate would be free to take up any other offer that might be available at that time, either through the "holding pool" or through the open market.

Quite a few graduates of these programmes do go on to fulfil their careers at other airlines as a result of the experience they have gained with their initial placements. Once you have reached that rung on the experience ladder then the open market is available to you.

The enormous hurdle that ab-initio pilots face, is in finding the opportunities to get the experience levels that many airlines demand. The airlines that are partners of CTC provide (from time to time, and absolutely as their own commercial requirements dictate,) just those opportunities. It is a very cold world for low hour pilots seeking those opportunities without specific integration. Airlines without cadet programmes usually source their F/O's from the experienced open market. Without that experience they are likely to tell you to come back when you do have it.

I understand many do tend to go into the partnered airlines with the aim of building up hours and if they so elect to, transition onto other airlines in the open market. Reality sets in, lots of hours satisfied and a few decide they want to move into a "giant" airline.

What I mainly want to know is, have they're ever been Wings cadets, that right after finishing up their ab-initio fATPL, have satisfactorily secured an offer of employment with an airline that's not part of the CTC airline partners?

I've read in this forum some have had to wait months until finally entering either easyJet or another partner airline when in the "holding pool". I am hoping to get a good picture of the overall situation once you've finished the course. Perhaps rather than having to wait for so long there are a few opportunities with other airlines that may be interesting too.

It's really the "hurdle" you're saying which I want to have more awareness of. I have a good idea how competitive and dark it is once you're done. And I've read stories of people making tremendous efforts into securing their first job. But through CTC, would you perhaps say this "hurdle" is somewhat less of a jump than going to other ATOs?

Cheers!

I am sure there probably have been, but not many, because the partners are the USP ("unique" selling point!) Nothing prevents you ordinarily from completing the course and seeking out employment on your own, however, and without wishing to repeat myself, this is a very difficult endeavour. Nevertheless, in principle, it is possible. I am sure there must have been graduates who have done this, but I doubt they exist in any significant number, and of course the partners are the constituent part of the advanced portion of the wings cadet course.

Outside of a structured cadet scheme there are very few airlines that would consider applicants with this level of low experience, and that would be the problem that would constantly resurface. Nevertheless, if you can find one, that would be fine.
Yes. Airline recruitment very much depends on the airlines actual and projected need for the forthcoming season. They may well have an idea of how many pilots they are going to need in the future, but it is only ever going to be an abstract figure. The real need, and hence hard recruitment, takes place only a few short months before the actual need arises. For that reason alone (and there are many others,) it is impossible to forecast with any accuracy what a recruitment situation is likely to be in anything other than the short term.

Many airlines (including partner airlines) complete the majority of their training in the Winter/Spring period. This is often the period when the operational requirements of the company allow for a greater availability of training tracks. Ab-initio advanced training of this nature is extremely demanding of those resources, and again it tends to focus those opportunities into this Winter/Spring period. The result is that where cadet vacancies do arise they tend to do so in a seasonal fashion. Outside of these seasons the "pools" tend to fill up, and they then empty as the recruitment season gets under way. By way of example, I have seen cadets graduate straight into partner airlines without any waiting at all in the last 24 months. However graduates immediately in line behind this group then had to wait almost a year for the next sequential vacancies(with the same partner) to arise. Therefore you should allow for this very real possibility in your planning. You should also bear in mind that the airline placements depend completely on the customer airlines requirements and their individual terms and conditions (which vary) at any given point in time.

In summary, you simply cannot guarantee anything and you need to be very aware of that. You should also be aware that the first tier airline market for low hour pilots may not be what you imagine it to be. Those airlines that offer cadet programmes to low hour pilots tend to do so in conjunction with specific FTO's. Those that do not, may require you to spend over a third of the entire fATPL syllabus cost (in addition) on the type rating alone. Clearly, the partner airline programmes offer significant advantages, but again, they are seasonal and very much dependent on the state of the market within each airlines own sphere at any given point in time.

It may be worth noting that for those who seek employment on their own may be withdrawn from the hold pool thus missing out on the job offers. This is second hand info but worth investigating further before you sign your life away with the intention of seeing if perhaps Cathay will hire you directly after training!

Hold pool
 

Is it true that going to CTC merely gets you a guarantee of an interview with an airline partner if you finish the course with first time passes in everything?

That much money for an interview is a bit of a scam don't you think?

No, it doesn't guarantee anything. The partner airlines make their selection from the graduates that are available. That selection process is likely to involve an interview. Those graduates that I am aware of who came to us, were certainly interviewed. The majority of those interviewed were selected for placement, and almost all of them were offered employment contracts at the end of their placement periods. I understand that trainees receive training and guidance on interview preparation.

First time passes in everything, isn't a prerequisite that I am aware of, but it might be for a particular company. Many of the graduates may well achieve first time passes at the various testing stages and that is good. However flight training is a dynamic and if a candidate required additional training to meet a standard at some point during that training, that certainly wouldn't preclude them a placement at the partner airlines that I am aware of.


Yes, if you think life is full of guarantees it probably would appear that way to you. The partner airlines are separate companies with their own requirements, terms and conditions. If they have no requirement then they will be offering no interviews. If they do have a requirement, then the FTO will put forward candidates from which they can make their own selection. That is likely to involve an interview. An interview is part of the process if you are selecting cadet pilots as indeed it is if you are selecting pilots with many thousands of hours of relevant experience. An experienced pilot within the airline is also going to be interviewed for appointment opportunities within the company (training, administration, management etc.) It is also increasingly becoming a part of the regular "personal development" process in most companies.

Those CTC graduates that I regularly fly with, don't regard it as "a bit of a scam." They were all interviewed as a part of the process. I am not aware that any were "guaranteed" an interview with anybody, although given the high level of placement, most obviously went through that process by default.