No matter what you say to people, there will still be some who will pay for a TR. You can't beat the system, but you can break it. That's why I think it's up to pilots to protect the Ts & Cs for new recruits.

Exactly. Educating from the "ground up" shall we say is they way forward I think!

I'd like to add that, as a young person myself, I think that one of the greatest qualities that we lack is patience (I must sound like I'm 65!). What's the rush? If you start flying in your twenties, you'll hopefully have at least 40 years flying planes. Why spend them all using an autopilot? If you don't get an airline job after training, have some fun doing other types of flying.

Some interesting and worldly comments justifying a recruitment policy based on financial considerations. Now consider this: Given that Loganair's problem is not in attracting F/Os but in keeping experienced captains and training captains, and that a significant proportion of training captains have left because of lifestyle/workload issues, how does a recruitment policy based not on suitability but on ability/gullibilty/willingness to pay for your own training help matters? I agree that training costs have to be contained and I have to say I personally look with some disdain upon those who leave before their bond/loan period is over (old fashioned I know but there we are), however I cannot see how there is any incentive for those who have taken on an even bigger loan to pay for their training than normal to do anything but leave at the earliest opportunity for a higher paying job in order to pay that loan off faster. I suppose that when people realise that not only do you have to pay for your own training but when you do get a job you will be paid a relatively low salary and only fly 4-500 hours a year rather than 900 then applications will slow down but that will only make the initial screening of CVs easier, it won't keep pilots on once they are able to leave. Maybe a non-reducing bond would, but I really don't see how paying for your TR will. What it may well do is increase the burden on the training department to such an extent that more training captains will think enough is enough and give up the struggle for an easier life elsewhere :{. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see how.

In reality then Logan (and others!) have turned themselves into a training organisation - or rather an 'experiencing organisation'. This is a great shame and I have to say I think it diminishes their credibility somewhat - If I were a passenger or investor I would question this.
I know I harped on about it before, but they would be far better to use their links to BA and act as a feeder to them. If people could see a BA job at the end of 3 yrs this would be an interesting career path.

elevengflyer,

Great idea! But do you think BA mainstream should still take on low-hour pilots as well as using Loganair as a feeder? I don't know if it would work unless BA recruited only from non-mainstream feeder airlines, or pilots with considerable experience. I know someone will give me stick over this, but we could take a leaf from the Americans book, by adopting a feeder system. A bit closer to home, BritAir act as a feeder airline to Air France. However, this won't affect the current system of paying for type ratings to work for low-cost carriers.

The situation with Loganair tells us one very important thing: we as pilots and prospective employees have the power to change things. In this case, the change was very much to for the worse. Two pilots offered themselves to the company with their type ratings alread complete and effectively jumped the queue (of non-type rated but talented British instructors/charter pilots/newly qualified youngsters). The company (or the company accountant) then made a decision purely based on the financial benefits, which if observed in isolation look pretty good. However, I believe that it will be the intangible effects (such as loss of morale/reputation in the industry/attracting the wrong type of recruit) that will be felt in 6 months/a year if this deal remains the norm. In the long term, these intangibles will start to have an impact on the bottom line. .

BOGOF, If by this (and I think you do) you mean that he/she approves of taking on type rated pilots to save the company money then they have seriously underestimated their business plan and are not looking far enough ahead. When you keep chopping at the foundations of a business, it will eventually fall. The foundations of any airline are happy content pilots and cabin crew who want to go that extra mile for the company but without that, the future state of any business will be in doubt.

This reminds me of a colleague who told me his company director tried to make three post holders redundant without actually realising that they were needed for the AOC and without them, the CAA would have pulled the AOC. There are some serious amateurs out there!

Absolutely! We as pilots do have a skill, which most of us have already paid out dearly (both financially and personally for). The beancounters who make these decisions have probably not sacrificed as much and yet are willing to tell us pilots that we must prostitute ourselves even further to work in their company.
When I tell people I am a qualified ATPL they still treat you with a small amount of respect - it is a shame that the industry does not treat the qualification in the same manner.
There are currently no passenger carrying UAV's - without pilots NO planes will leave the ground - please note Mr Beancounter!

I have to agree with Lee Frost. I find the decision which Loganair have adopted mind boggling…….

I’m Scottish, with family living on the Islands and very aware of the role this company plays in these communities. I’ve always looked to Loganair as an operator where I could have a very rewarding career both as an FO and as a Captain, but with the new scheme in place, I’m sorry, but I won’t be pursuing employment – their loss I say!!

Why can’t a non reducing bond be used instead, such as the scheme Flybe appear to be adopting? Surely this would be far better for Logan…

I met a Captain on a flight from Islay to Glasgow back in late April and he said they're always on the look out for good pilots who want to work for the company. I just wonder how many good pilots they will continue to see through their doors and how many of those will want to be there??

- Time will tell.

Funkie, Sadly, Logan did have a very good reducing bond scheme which many pilots are currently on but I was told the same thing and it now appears you can change "good" to "cheap" and when told the conditions of employment, I politely told them I would not be self funding my type rating.

One positive note to come out of this is that there seem to be a number of you in need of an f/o position who have told Logan the same thing!

Let me be the first to say you deserve to be commended with a standing ovation. :D

Well done all of you and best of luck with future employment. Lets just hope they and others like them get the message and that your fellow colleagues will do the same!!

Yes, but it takes a bit of courage to say "Im not going to be shafted thank you very much" when you dont have a job lined up and the debts are mounting! Im just saying what every pilot both trained and employed or not should be saying!

Now let me see......do I find another £18,000 from somewhere, £12,000 of which I will not see again, to buy a type rating on a fairly old turboprop so that I might get a job paying about £22,000 a year flying about 400 hours, or do I buy a type rating on a jet for a similar amount with a similar chance of a job but paying rather more and flying rather more, or do I spend £6,000 on an instructor rating and get some experience and some money coming in or........? Life is full of decisions, Grasshopper, but some are easier than others :cool: .

Hear hear DB6

It wasn't that long ago that I was in the hunt for the first turboprop job (3 years ago to be precise) and the standard deal on offer for jobs at Logan, Eastern, Flybe, Highland, Scotairways etc was a 2-year reducing bond of between £6 and £9K. No cash up front or any outrageous nonsense like that.

What I find most disgusting is the crass profit margin they're taking. If any of you guys decide to go impersonate an airline manager, and ring up Saab to get a quote for training some new pilots (or BAE or any other European turboprop training provider, there's not a huge price difference for any turboprop rating really) you will find that the general wholesale cost to the airline customer including ground school and LST, for TWO pilots to be trained together as sim partners, is around £12 - £14K total, or £6 - 7K each. As for charging for line training - AARRGGHHH don't even get me started, lets just say I can start to see where A320rider is coming from! I'm not so naive though as to think that shedloads of wannabes STILL won't queue up to do it and I'm pretty much through wasting my breath on pprune about how bad these deals are.

I just hope and pray that Logan get what they deserve from it, which is that their crew take the piss out of them to the same extent they are dishing it out - that ultimately every single one of their FO's extends two fingers and bails out to a real job as soon as they've got 1000 hours, that their captain shortage reaches even bigger crisis levels real soon, the last few remaining training captains bail out, the whole schedule comes unstuck, then BA audit them and sack the entire ops management team for such crass mismanagement of their crewing levels and they are replaced with someone who's got a clue about long term management strategy.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Does anyone know how the bond works ?

Do you provide the £8000 or whatever it is, and then the company pays back a little every month ?

Or do the company provide it, but in your name, and they pay it monthly ?

Cheers:confused:

When a bad deal ain't so bad for some
 

This is all a real shame, it just draws another major disappointment in the airline recruitment industry where the size of the wallet speaks loudest! Living in Glasgow and currently in commercial training myself, I had banked a lot on Loganair and hoped that one day it may provide me with a first job, keeping me in Glasgow where I am married and own property. I probably would have been happy to remain there for quite some time as it kept me close to home.

Now it looks like I may as well forget it. I knew the odds in 'getting in' to Logan were already stacked against me (I am of a modular background), however this current arrangment makes sure that the odds are non-existant! :*

The thing that really gets my back up (as it has already been stated by others) is that Logan's pound saving exercise will not create a shortage of candidates (especially for those looking for their first job). There is still a lot of people out there who consider money as being 'no object' when it comes to securing the right hand seat. Loganair are banking on this, having it seen work for so many other carriers ie Ryanair etc.

It is a sad state of affairs, but airlines are very lean businesses which I think believe that consistent short term performance is more important than setting up long term objectives? Managers regard crew as just another cog in the wheel that gets the airline through each day. And if they can save money of this cog (or even make money out of it), then they look wonderful! It isn't anything new and so what if it pisses people off! I'm sure they will sleep at night if money is saved, living under the probably accurate assumption that there is always some mug which will come along and pay up 18K in order to work for them! :(

Atleast with Ryanair ect you get onto wage which can offset your spending!Sad:sad: day`s

Im not so sure about that Pipertommy, Ryanair's intial pay for a new cadet is WORSE than Logan's by quite a margin. Plus you don't see any £'s until your Line training is over! :(

Another big factor is that at least with Logan you know you will be in Scotland, with Ryanair they can punt you anywhere in Europe and expect you to live on nothing!

Fair point:) i was`nt that clear sorry,in the future with them your wage will grow to a respectful income,against Logan`s.Not that is my driving force for a job.Could`nt think of a better job than Loganair`s flying:)

Not to worry, the common ground with both airlines is that the cadet is taken for a ride! However it is obvious that there are plenty of people out there that are willing to take that ride in order to get into the RHS. They obviously want no quality of life, have no financial worries or think that being in a massive amount of debt is something not worth concerning themselves about! :eek:

Ryanair have bullied pilots into sigining contracts, so I wouldn't be sure about making a respectable income in comparison with Loganair!

Well said Luke Skytoddler!
 

I now no-longer work for the company and thankfully didn't experience the present Flight Ops Management, unfortunatley, this is a classic example of the standard of management at the bottom of the food chain! This management have, in the past few months, made some pretty big errors in recruitment I understand and this latest plan could be a fall out from their very poor judgement...

Loganair is a fantastic airline with the best flying in Europe in my opinion and some great guys to work with, but avoid this scheme at all costs - i'm sure most guys have worked out it just ain't worth it!

Virtually any other TP operator must be better than what Logibear is offering.

The sharp cookies from Oxford etc will go direct jet anyway.

Flight training is definately not returning to the days of the good old BA sponsorship and a like and it is a great shame.

I am willing to pay for a type rating when I can find the money, sorry if I annoy god knows how many, but at the same time have my reservations on pilot pay.

Let's face it the airlines have it easy these days - ok may be a few problems in place with terroism. They are low budget, don't have to worry about the thrills anymore for short flights - hey no cooked meal - no free drinks etc, no paying for pilot training or even cabin crew training with some airlines. They are really bringing in the bucks as to yesterday.

One has to ask the question, if the pilots are prepared to put themselves in upto to £70+ worth of detb for the airlines profits. You'd hope the airlines would give back slightly more in the way of salary 'fair's fair', although business is not fair. For instance, if Loganair now wants all there FOs to pay for the type rating, they could at least say that the annual salary will rise from 22K per year to 24K, it's marginal and they are in profit to previous years.

I know people may think this is a dead end argument, but it would be really nice to see this attitude applied. It may take the sting out of a lots of peoples throats. Sames goes with Ryanair, their pay is good after a few years, but that first year is sickening for people with loans to pay off. I am someone who can see the long term investment and will consider Ryan, but at the same time I don't think it is pruely fair. **** happens, struggle through!

Worth noting that the pilots that were taken on having bought type ratings had not had to pay for their training up until then - that was state sponsored - so they aren't actually £70k in debt. Doesn't help you if you are from the UK though.

hi there everybody,

how are the new entry terms working out for loganair?

is anyone accepting them and paying for their own rating as per the terms stated in thread?

it's supply and demand as far as pilot recruitment goes and loganair must think that there is more supply than demand at moment.

perhaps they are right......or

perhaps they have not heard about flybe announcing publicly that they will be recruiting 10 new pilots every month for the next 2 years for their new dash 8 q400's.

plenty other demand predicted by other airlines such as easyjet and ryanair as well so the market looks quite dynamic.

straightlevel

Since i've lived in Scotland since birth my first choice location to work is here, north of the border!

Logan was always an operator on top of my list since it keeps me in my native land!

After training completion I fear the logan route will be out of the window for me as I can't justify that cost to their wages. If all companies are forcing us to pay for type ratings then I would rather prostitue myself with a jet operator...albeit I would love to do some real flying for a while and remain in familiar grounds.

I still have a year or so before fatpl completion so I hope logan shoot themselves in the foot and realise what they are asking for is unrealistic. Sadly I think this is chasing away a good level of candidates as well as potential employees with a strong background in Scotland like myself.

Schemes like this are pushing us guys who can't really afford the TR route to look up and down the country rather than stay locally which is a shame...as I would prefer not too.

Just thinking,do you have to pay for a Twin otter postion as an f/o?

A reasonable question! i would imagine so, although twotter recruitment is very rare, and rumours of its demise are always around.
Probably the only aircraft in the UK more obsolete then the SF340 though!!!

Decisions Decisions!
 

DB6
And what if you have already been instructing for a few years, so the 6k isn't an option anymore.
Is the decision literally 'Pay 18k for an old turbo prop or a similar amount for a jet' ?
Depressing! That means I would have spent 24k in total.
Although the instructing is great fun and excellent at getting you some great experience, it may well work out as being the more expensive path.
IH

If you can afford it, do it, if you can't, dont, and stop complaining as this is gonna be a part of our industry for the forseable future.

Opportunities may open up elsewhere for you if not, but it may be the best 12k you'll ever spend. Loganair is the BEST first job in the country.FACT!

FB:ok:

If you can afford it, don't do it! You might be better off long term saving up a little more and buying a jet rating which in theory will open more doors to you.

Loganair maybe used to be one of the better first jobs in the industry, but not anymore, POSSIBLY A FACT!

:}

A very good point DB6.
I seem to remember Eastern taking a lot of Scandinavians for the very same reason, ie TR paid for by their country. It bit them in the a:\ :eek: e in the long run though, as those same people were off the second a jet job came along, owing Eastern nothing and causing massive turnover in crew. Not sure if they are so keen on it anymore.

With great sadness I read this thread. After completing my CPL/IR I held out great hope of getting a job with Loganair. I sent my CV in through contacts etc, even my friends did, but got nothing back. Some got the reply due to retraining of the Otter, Islander fleet they would not be recruiting for a while so I let things go. I applied for other jobs and eventualy went through *** and got a job with a jet opperator in the **. Now i read the website of an integrated school on the continent about students and "connections" with Loganair that really annoys me. There are many instructors and studes in this country that would give their arm to fly for Loganair, some would spend the rest of their careers there. It is no longer Scotlands airline. If Logan recuited the right guys they would not need to charge pilots for TR and they would not have such a large turnover... Grrr! :ugh: Is it Islae or Isla (pronunciation)

Perhaps you never got the job because you can't spell ISLAY

lucky for Loganair

mayby that was my point :)

sorry ive missed your point...

Banter I was talking about pronunciation of Islay but thats not really what I was getting at. Im just annoyed at the direction that Loganair have gone down with paying for TR etc, too much wine this pm just my honest opinion.

Since Loganair's wonderful new idea in mid-July, when they decided to get new pilots to pay for their type rating and line training, has anyone accepted and started training / working yet?

I've heard that they aren't recruiting again until next year, yet I thought this was a typical TP operator recruiting a couple of pilots every month or so???

Also hearing rumours about a connection with FTE, Jerez - is there one, and do those students pay for their ratings as well?

If they do recruit about 15 - 20 pilots a year, surely this means that people are accepting the new terms every month!

IH

Personally I think the intergrated guys in southern Spain would probably be hanging on for a jet position, for certain if they are expected to pay....

If rumours are anything to go by from the inside, I understand LOG will be hit hard in the new year with many Capts/FOs heading to Globespan and Thomas Cook! So desperation may dictate that all this "Buying SF340 Ratings" mayhem may change....