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FO's paying to fly?
I'm guessing that most of the airlines asking for FO's to pay for line flying are probably based in the far east. Does anybody have details on whose doing this and where?
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The Far East is currently showing signs of a pilot shortage, especially in China and India, so paying for line training isn't something I have seen advetised in the Far East, but it is something that is happening in Europe. I believe Astraeus, Wizz Air associated with Bond / Storm aviation run self sponsored type rating schemes in which you can buy 100 hours of line training on top the type rating. However US based Eagle Jet also run similar schemes; whereby you pay for line experience on top the type rating. It is possible (though this is an assumption) that some of these companies may be placing people on these schemes with Far Eastern based airlines.
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If this is true, I can't believe it !
Only in aviation can you find professionals paying an employer to do a job ! Is it just me or is this all wrong ? And who are the people paying it ? The same who whinge about poor conditions ? I hope not. |
Take a look in the back of Flight International and you will see two adverts advertising line training (Bond and Eagle Jet).
It would seem there are a reasonable number of applicants for these schemes. |
can you tell me more about line training of Bond?Is it available for B737?
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Hi Snake,
Bond Aviation Solutions, in cooperation with Astraeus, offers the B737 type-rating and line training. MCC+JOC at £4000 + VAT B737TR at £16,250 + VAT 100hrs line training at £9000 + VAT The training is provided in LGW (groundschool) and Cranebank for the simulator. Line training is based in LGW, MAN, Exeter or Birmingham. Send me a PM for further infos. Regards |
The training organisations offering line training for a fee are answering a demand. That demand comes from those wannabes who feel that such training may give them an advantage when it comes to seeking employment.
FFP, be careful with your insinuation that the training organisations concerned are airlines receiving free or paying labour; the provision of such training is certainly done for a profit (it also provides a means of keeping a training department available and occupied), but it is not done as a substitute for recruiting legitimate FOs. There have certainly been schemes which were more than a little dodgy, thoug I'm not aware of any in UK. Bond/Astraeus is not one of them; several Pprune Wannabes have benefitted from their expertise through the Pprune/Astraeus assisted training scheme. We do not associate ourselves with disreputable organisations! Scroggs |
Fair enough.
But I still don't understand the concept of 100 hrs "line training". So this is done without fare paying passengers ? If not, then the airline involved must be benefitting from not "employing" a FO. I must put my hands up and confess to not knowing the ins and outs of it all and if I have got it wrong, then I apologise. The concept of gaining time on a jet to make you more appealing to an employer is fair enough, but do employers count 100 hrs as experience enough ? I thought 500 hrs was the benchmark (and surely no one pays for that amount of time ?) |
The definition of line training is that it is done on line - with passengers and/or freight on board. Can you imagine how much it would cost to provide line training on empty aircraft? It would make the costs of an Oxford ATPL pale in comparison! Think in terms of £5,000 - £10,000 per flying hour...
100 hours (about 40 sectors) is enough to learn what you need to know to be moderately competent - and more than enough for any training organisation to judge whether or not you should continue. Any more than that and I think those who claim this is cheap labour would have a point! 500 hours, even if it were morally acceptable, would be prohibitive in cost for the student. In any case, it would be time and money wasted; any decent airline will wish to give new employees training in their own SOPs and ways of doing things, which will be done in their own line training programme - albeit possibly a truncated one for those who have done an SSTR. Whether you like it or not, SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training. My concern is that students get value for money in that training, and that the training itself is valued by the industry. There are doubts on both those issues with some schemes, but that is no reason to rubbish them all. Scroggs |
SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training. Have to disagree with you 100%. Some things you write are interesting, but you too have been sucked into believing that the 'pay for type ratings' is the only way forward for the industry, it is not. It exists because young wananbes have created the demand, it does not make it right, and it certainly does not justify it like you suggest. This industry is f*****d... so say quite a few of us who have been around for a while. Youngsters with too much money, no idea about what the 'profession' is or was, and PPRuNe sliding towards making this outrage accetable. Its time for PPRuNe to stand up against it, but it will not due certain people involved supporting it due personal interest. There are 2 groups at fault, those who pay, and those who collect and grin all the way to the bank... w***kers. |
Hallo guys.
This is not the first time we see this discussion going on here on pprune, but it certainly doesn’t make it less interesting… I will like to come with my point of view, since I am one of the “wannabes” who has bought a B737 type rating…. And first of all I will like to say that, I do agree with you. It is wrong, that you pay for your own rating! But why did I do it??? Yes simply because it is almost impossible to find a job in the GA business now a days - as a low timer! Okay there is still sightseeing flying etc. but the truth is that, these jobs will only last for a few months and you won’t accumulate more than maybe 50 hours on a season – So now you have 250 hours total, and then what? Yes you could wait another 8 moths, until the season starts again… And maybe after a few years you would have 400-500 VFR hours on a SEP… Still not enough, to get anywhere, as it looks now and has been looking for the past few years. And trust me on this, because I know both former sightseeing pilots, experienced instructors who have bought a rating, simple because the good old career path isn’t present no more. And all are very skilled pilots, with great personalities. I recall some of my former flight instructors telling us how they became airline pilots. And yes, they did some sightseeing flights and maybe some time on a small turboprop and was then hired by an airline. And to be honest, I really believe this would be a great way to start a pilot career, but again it is not possible, and why not. Yes okay you can still get the sightseeing job, but getting a job on a small turboprop requires you just as many hours as the big airlines requires, somewhere between 500 and 3000, with some experience on multi engine aircrafts… And how do you get that?? And if any of you experienced pilots out there, who doesn’t believe what I am saying then take yourself some time to look around in the business, and should find some jobs where a lowtimer with 200-300 hours total would qualify then please post here on Pprune… Okay I believe I have made my point here… So back to the SSTR. Ask you self this question, and assume that you have just finished your training, and the job situation is as I just wrote. “Would you just sit and wait for 1,2,3 or who knows how many years before you get a chance of being employed without the rating?” Yes somebody does find jobs without having to pay for anything, but they do belong to the minority, and as a matter of fact there are more and more low timers giving up there dream because they can’t find a job, and they can’t afford a type rating, and this is not something I make up. And then they have lost not only a dream, but also a lot of money… So continue with the question: “So now you hear that there is a very good chance of being employed on a large jet, if you pay for you own rating, hence you get a very good job and you get a chance to pay you loan back…” So what do you do??? If there are any of you experienced guys out there, knowing what to do, then please tell us!!!! Why do we have to pay for our own rating, well because the airlines have decided to, NOT the low timers!! But can you blame the airlines – No not really, they are going through rough times, and if they have a chance of saving money they will do it. That’s called business! Who is to blame then??? In my opinion it is the experienced pilots, you are the one sitting in FL330 smiling, and most of you don’t give a dame about your future colleagues. You should be the first to say, “ We don’t want our new colleagues to pay for there own ratings, stop hiring low timers with ratings, and select the ones who are skilled and who has the right personality for the company – And then offer them a job with a bond” The experienced pilots are the only ones who can help us low timers, no one else! Some companies do just that, like for example Thomsonfly… And apparently low time pilots who is giving a chance are doing just fine onboard a big jet, or a small turboprop for that matter!!! So stop blaming low timers, because we don’t have a choice. We are just doing whatever we can, in order to get a job! And if we have to pay for both the type rating and the line training we do it, not because we want to, but because that is our only option! Most of us have increased our loans in order to pay for this, so it is definitely not something we enjoy!!! And what have happened now? Yes now a B737 rating is starting to become a part of the initial training and because of that, TRTOs are popping up everywhere, advertising for B737/A320 ratings. – Not because an airline requires it, but because that’s a way of earning money… So now there are so many low time pilots with a B737/A320 rating, that the rating simply isn’t enough. Because now the companies see an opportunity to get line trained pilots, instead of just selecting the skilled ones with the right personality… And what can the low time pilot do about it??? Yes, we can pay for the line training, and hope that this will help us. And yet again, the experienced pilots are the only ones who can stop it… Because low timers just do whatever it takes, otherwise you might never get a job… And don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the orther end… And again, I am against paying for my own type rating as well as line training but I am also against that you have to pay for you education in the first place, because what makes a lawyer more important than a pilot??? And the lawyer doesn’t pay for his education…(Denmark) Again I believe that you should select the qualified people, and only educate the number of pilots required for the industry… But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay?? That was my opinion, I hope some of you experienced pilots out there would like to comment it. /BAP |
Meeb you are quite wrong. At no stage have I suggested that "pay for type ratings is the only way forward for the industry". In fact, on several occasions I have spoken out against the idea. However, SSTRs exist, and are a perfectly legitimate offering, and we at Pprune have a duty to see that they are discussed without resort to the kind of emotional language you adopt.
As for your insinuation that somehow I am involved in some sort of SSTR scam and stand to benefit from people taking up SSTRs with any organisation, I suggest you retract it sharpish. Scroggs |
Hi Scroggs,
Can you tell me the rough cost of paying for such line training? Would love to avoid the cost but if it is an issue in the future, I will do it should there be no alternative..... However, does this mean that paticular airline will take you on should you perform well during that time, or is it simply like any other rating/licence, after which it's up to you to find employment. Also, is this line training inclusive of type rating or do you do that first? Thanks |
I am not a spokesman for these schemes, and a search here will reveal quite a lot of the information you want. I understand that the TR+ line training will cost around £18-25k from most of the companies involved. Some may hold out the carrot of a position with the host airline 'for suitable candidates', but I wouldn't bet the farm on that. If you decide to go this route, you are contracting for a type rating plus a number of hours' line training and nothing more.
Whether such training will give you an advantage in the job market isn't easy to say, but I can tell you that plenty of Pprune's wannabes have been employed in the last few months without such training. My gut feeling is that they are far less advantageous than they once were. Scroggs |
Meeb,
I have to agree with Scroggs' qoute: can you not see that FTOs like Oxford, Cabair exist because there are people willing to pay for their license. If everybody refused to pay for any training then all airlines would have to start funding cadets. TRTOs are merely an extension of the service provided by FTOs. You may not like it, nor may some of your little friends, but that's the way it is! Your utopian vision of morality within a contemporary commercial environment such as aviation is lovely to hear, but it ain't going to happen.. you sound like a ranting Socialist (note: no political stance against socialism intended):E For your information it is not just 'youngsters' with money.. there are many 'elders' with money too both at FTOs and TRTOs. It doesn't matter what the profession was about because wannabes are not going to experience that (not the current forum we are in), those days (sadly) are gone. From a number of your posts it appears to me that you have a difficulty with excepting change and possibly dwell on the past. There is nothing wrong with reminisence, nostalgia and the like, but exceptance is hugely important. I don't like the way the area I have lived in has changed.. the guns, crime etc but I have to except that is the way it is.. I do not have the power to change matters and you too do not have the power to alter the way aviation is changing.. deal with it. Oh yeah.. cheers for castigating myself and others as w**kers, real mature mate. I leave my fighting talk for the streets and the pub, this is supposed to be a professional civilised forum. Try to control yourself. Powder monkey.. pm me if you need any info, ditto to what Scroggs said, there is an evident risk factor involved, I can give you a rough estimate of the success rates 747 Downwind:ok: |
Uhmmm.. well thanks to everybody that's contributed to this topic so far... shame that sensitive subjects like this tend to provoke arguments rather than address the main point - which sadly I see hasn't yet been forthcoming! If anybody has definitive information please do post it :) Thanks.
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BAP,
But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay?? |
I would really be amused to know what all the so called good moralists would do now if they won 2 million euros at the lottery...?
Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!! By the way, if it is true that in some countries lawyers do not pay for training, so much for medical doctors...., they have to pay for their practice, their professional insurance, their updates... (yearly congress...). Does anyone has a idea how much cost a dentist practice ? a lawyer practice ? You could argue, yes, but he can sell it back. One cannot sell a 737 TR back. My father baught 10 year ago a CPA practice 200 000 euros, do did one of his friend. After 2 year the friends practice lost 70% of its clients.... |
My Girkfriend is a lawyer and she has just been offered partnership in a large corporate firm, However do to so, she has to buy herself in at a cost of £35,000!
Now if she doesn't she wont get made a partner and she wont get the big money that goes with partnership. So it seems that pilots aren't the only ones that need to pay for their future.. Personally I don't think it's any different than any other industry.. |
Hi OBK.
Paying to fly is not flying for a living, there's no living involved! It also encourages the majoirty of other airlines to introduce schemes like this and in my opinion will probably reduce pay in the long run as more an more wannabes offer to sacrifice huge amounts of hard earned money. Paying to fly is absolutely wrong, but that’s not something that I am planning to do for the rest of my career, that is simply just something I would consider if something doesn’t happen soon. Because right now I am having a B737 type rating, but no job. And since more and more companies won’t settle with the rating alone, I only have two options. The first one is to wait, and for every day that goes I become less interesting to the companies - and the proficiency check is absolutely not for free either. And the last option is to buy the line training, and start flying, and most likely I will get a job after this… I am not making the rules I am just following them. Who has made the rules?? - The experienced pilots/Airlines, not me, I am new in the business! And again - don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the other end… I would really be amused to know what all the so called good moralists would do now if they won 2 million euros at the lottery...? Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!! Here is a good example of where the aviation industry is going. http://www.solid-airline.nl/fo.jpg Frustrating - yes, but what can I do about it?? I can refuse to pay for my own rating and line training, but then I might as well get myself another career, because these are the rules now.. Unless somebody inside the companies do something about it! Concerning the lawyer/doctor or whatever. Paying for a practice is not the same as paying for an education. I believe it’s comparable with a pilot buying his own plane, to start a company. But I do agree that it is a matter of paying for a good future, which is very comparable to paying for TR + line training. /BAP |
Ive waded into this before, and for those of you who dont know, I am very much against the idea of the SSTR, personally I believe its the thin end of the wedge.
The problem as I see it is the expectation of leaving training, and then sliding seamlessly into a nice shiney Jet; not only is that an unrealistic expectation, its proving to be far from the reality in the vast majority of cases. What we need here is a reality check..am I wrong in noticing that a large proportion of wannabes on here seem to think its perfectly reasonable to hop on a complex type without any further experience? If you think it is..go ask some of the Easy guys about flying and line training some of the low hour cadets they employ, you'll find the reality is far removed from the hype. In many ways today has never been a better time to be a low-timer, plenty of entry level and Lo-Co's are recruiting and a heck of a lot of them are bonding crews, rather than offering cash upfront, better yet turbo-prop operators are back in vogue, which is a far better road to gaining experience..than going straight into the deep-end on a 60 tonne jet. To all of you who think Im talking from a position of being fat dumb and happy with my Jet job...think about this, 3yrs flying SE piston 2yrs flying multi-piston 2yrs flying multi-turbine Currently flying a jet........I havent parted with a penny to pay for any training on any aircraft, and Im no intergrated/modular student..just a bit of hard graft. Oh and debt free :ok: The arguement of lawyers and doctors carries no weight, put simply both of these professions (as well as many others) junior professionals have to serve their time before they can progress i.e. to partnerships/private practice etc..etc..most of the guys on SSTR courses want to skip this step out of a mixture of impatience, expectation, and desperation. |
I can't believe the things I read on here sometimes!
If this continues I might go buy a simulator and make a fortune doing type ratings!!:ok: I will give you all my opinion since I am not from the UK but fly here. I started in Canada and that is where I gained all my commercial experience....now over there most people don't seem to jump to conclusions of what they want to fly until they have over 1500+ hours. Most people joining the aviation industry here in the UK seem that soon as they are done and have accumulated there 250 hours are now ready to fly the jets! Where did this ever come from??!?!?! 250 hours?? You shouldn't be allowed to fly 25NM from an airport with that time! You need to instruct! INSTRUCT INSTRUCT INSTRUCT!!! get 1000TT, and then maybe you could be able to fly a charter or cargo Piston twin....that s how to gain hours. The CAA need to become involved as well...I think there is a serious problem over here and the airlines are all taking advantage of this situation. I have heard that they had a scheme years ago where a pilot required 700TT to have his CPL issued?!? If that is the case, why did they change that? Most operators in America or Canada require 500Multi PIC before you can fly as captain on a multi engine piston aircraft...and that sounds about right to have that kind of experience to be allowed to fly an aircraft of that sort. I am sorry to say this, but people in the UK that I have met need to realize that Instructing is the way to build hours, not paying for a type rating! and i know a lot of people with type ratings and 100 line training that don't even get a response from their CV's. 250TT > Instruct 1000TT> Charter 1500TT> Regional 3000TT> Airlines don't try jumping too far before you can walk! don't pay for type ratings, its not your job to pay for it! Good luck :ok: |
People are always asking, if I don't pay, then what else can I do? The answer is simple, apply only to companies you would like to work for who don't have the ridiculous requirement of being already type rated!
So many people say that SSTR's are the reality, and we just have to accept it. Well we don't because there are still decent airlines out there - I have recently been assessed by BACX, Flybe, Thomsonfly and Cityjet, all of whom asked to interview me despite me not being type rated, and I'm sure there are many others out there. Ok, you might say, I applied to those companies and wasn't successful. Well in that case take the advice of the previous couple of posters and work your way up in the industry, taking things one step at a time rather than feeling the need to be in the RHS of a jet yesterday.... |
YYZ Instructor Unfortunately, you are wasting your time pining for days of old! You might wish that things were different (do I detect a bit of trans-Atlantic jealousy, perhaps?), but they are not. The airline industry in UK is in excellent health, unlike that in North America, and it needs new people - lots of them.
However, there has developed an expectation among baby pilots here that 250 hours' flying (not training) is all they need to acquire to be 'owed' a jet job, and certain organisations have capitalised on that over the past couple of years - Ryanair in particular, but others as well. The Solid-Airline lot that BAP refers to look to be a prize example of a scam perpetrated on impressionable wannabes - avoid! However, the airline industry here could not afford all the new guys to go off into flying instruction, however valuable such flying might be, and there is no intrinsic reason why a 250-hour pilot cannot enter TR and line training and thereafter (with around 350 hours) perform adequately as a co-pilot on an airliner. Most modern airliners require far less skill and thought to fly (at a basic level) than your average piston twin! Most military organisations put their new pilots in charge of far more complex equipent at a similar number of (far higher quality) hours, so it's not a non-sequitor. The SSTR argument is a distraction from the issue; SSTRs are a legitimate training device offered by many bona-fide training orgainisations and aimed at a wide variety of pilots who, for whatever reason, wish to equip themselves with a type rating to make themselves more attractive in the marketplace. The real issue is operators like Ryanair that have contracted people to fly for them while either paying to do so or while not being paid. That is where the immorality lies, not with SSTRs which are no more immoral than a CPL/IR. Scroggs |
Some of you reading this may find this thread I started a couple of months ago useful. Oddly it followed a similar pattern to this, question posed, abuse, then some useful advice and an informed debate.
Link to Buying a Type Rating Thread I hope it is of some use as I did some maths and thought about the whole process without emotion as a pure business decision. Some otheres added some pertinent information that I think all low hour pilots should at least consider when deciding on that first step after attaining the CPL. My next six months is mapped out with a mixture of ATPL study with Bristol and my JAA Multi CPL/IR conversion combined with networking and finding out which nightclub the personnel manager at Virgin Atlantic's daughter frequents. Stephen |
Guys it's not worth arguing about
This whole ball game is going to change beyond recognition in a few short months when the JAA multi pilot licence is set upon us, and EVERY SINGLE STUDENT coming out of the big UK and European flying schools has had a type rating of their choice, thrown in as part of their ab initio training. Have a think about how that's going to skew the playing field ... especially if you're 200 hours and unemployed in the current market :{ There's hopefully going to still be scope for a few old multi-thousand hour turboprop lags like me to get into a decent job without paying for it - but the rest of you low timers, if I was you I'd take a collective deep breath, bend over & spread 'em for your bank manager a.s.a.p. |
mainly to BAP
Hi BAP
I find your posts really interesting as it highlights your mindset extremely clearly and hence your conclusion of buying a rating. Lets see if I can get everything said in a positively critical manner. I agree with you on the way the market has moved and now type ratings are becoming a neccesary evil - at least in the eyes of low hour wannabees. Let me be candid and honest - I am a low hour wannabee seeking employment as well. However, I have to disagree wholeheartedly on you assumptions that wannabees and airlines are not to blame, yet experienced pilots, advanced in their careers, are. Yes, it would seem a great concept for experienced pilots to demand that their company hires only the highest calibre cadets rather than the wealthiest, but that is not the role of those pilots or, I imagine, within their capabilities to make such demands. Who is to blame? In my eyes we are. Yes, wannabees. We are making this bed for ourselves as we are readily paying training as it would appear there are no other options now. We have created the direct-to-airline route by not being willing to gain experience by any other means to the point that now your argument is correct - there actually are fewer other options now as not paying to go to the airlines leaves you open to spending years in the wilderness whilst other wannabees willing to pay fill the airlines requirements. I know several instructors who have simply become too "old" to enter airlines and have an extremely slim chance of jumping across to airlines. Are airlines to blame for capitalising on this? I would love to paint them black, but truthfully I think we have done this to ourselves. As you state, it's business. Furthermore - you state yourself that airlines are now requiring hours due to the sheer volume of potential candidates with self funded type ratings, and use this as a justification for paying to "work" whilst building hours. As you state, the industry should only train the number of pilots it requires and those be of the highest calibre. I can assure you that if it was left to airline accountants then this would be the case in a world where wannabees didn't try to buy experience or an opportunity to gain employment. What can we assume from this? That those not possesing the required talent, skills, etc... bought type ratings? Perhaps in the past, but as you say it is now the only way; standing out as a perfect candidate without a type rating amongst the flood of newbs running to hand over vast sums of money is next to impossible. We did this to ourselves and I'm not sure which I find more difficult to believe ; that there is little or no hope of reversing this trend now; or that we think there are no other options to gaining hours and ultimately airline employment. The latter is perfectly highlighted in your arguments which justify your reasons for buying a type and your current desperate situation where you have a type rating and now need hours to stand out before it expires. This post is not meant to be offensive, or negatively critical, I just don't agree with you that anyone is to blame but us - and it appears to me that you're looking for anyone else to blame but yourself. I am not making the rules I am just following them. Who has made the rules?? - The experienced pilots/Airlines, not me, I am new in the business! And again - don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the other end… Good luck, hope it all pans out okay and hopefully I should be up there one day if I can impress an airline enough with my skills. M80 |
Hi M80.
Thanks for your point of you. I do see your point, yet I don’t agree with it. Yes you are right, I made the decision to buy a rating - because that was the only way I could see myself reaching my goal – To fly for a living. Am I to blame or the low timers?? Yes we could stop paying, and then everything would be just fine again. I would have been the first one to say, ”okay, we don’t buy our own ratings” But I would only have done that if there was a guarantee that no one did buy it, otherwise I would just have been sitting back now with no hope of being employed… So that’s why, I say that I am just following the rules. And I can’t change them; because it is impossible to say that low timers should stop paying for there own rating. It would only work if everybody stopped, which is naïve to believe, and maybe I am the “Someone”, but that is because an airline would hire me… Okay you are right, if everybody said the same as I do now, it would never be possible to get low timers to stop paying. So in that context, I am guilty, but that’s simply because I weigh my career higher than how the business is developing. Selfish - Yes very. But to be honest, I don’t believe that you or anybody else would be any different if you had just won a million in the lottery. Not that I have won anything, unfortunately :) Okay of course some low timers, did make the bed for us, but that’s many years ago now, and I have no part in that. I just have to sleep in it. Okay I am not exactly helping, but I still believe that the only ones who can stop this are the experienced pilots, because they are the ones who have the power through the pilots union. Unfortunately as you also said; it is properly irreversible now, and even though the experienced pilots would like to stop this, it might be too late now. What I believe made me to post my opinion in first place, was that a lot of pilots blame pilots like me, for paying my way forward in the business, but maybe they should look around and see that there are not a lot of options left. The truth is, that if I have had the option of flying as an instructor, GA pilot etc. I would have done it. And I am still trying to find these jobs, even though I am rated on a B737. But right now I know A LOT of ex-instructors who has decided to pay there way forward in the business, even though they had many hours on both SEP and MEP. So to everybody who just believe that the old career path still exists, please look again. But anyway, I wish you all the best and I hope that both of us, and anybody else who is waiting for the phone call, will soon find our self smiling above the clouds ;) /BAP |
Thanks for your reply, and I do understand your view as well!
but jealousy??? Why? I fly in the UK...:ok: |
YYZ Instructor,
I also did my flight training and the instructor rating in Canada but I have decided to pay for my A320 rating and then my 300 hrs line training on type. I had 300 hours TT when I started to fly the A320. Most of my friends are still instructing with more than 2000 hrs TT and they are not able to find a job even on a Navajo! After I got my instructor rating, an airline told me: ''we want actual IFR, instuctor time does not count as you are not flying, you're just watching a student turning around the airport..'' that's why I have decided to go for a TR and that was a good decision for me. I really think that the logical way to become an instrcutor is to gain a great flying experience and then share your experience. Most instructors want to build flight time which is leading to a poor training. I have been waiting for 1 year after completion of my TR before joining the line training, you can't imagine how many guys are paying for their experience. It's sad but true. Good luck and enjoy instructing! |
Quote 'I have been waiting for 1 year after completion of my TR before joining the line training, you can't imagine how many guys are paying for their experience It's sad but true.
I guess I can ...... an inevitable extension of the how the abuse escalates once certain airlines realise that there are people out there willing to do anything to get that all important airline job ! I have actually come across a person who said that they were prepared to work for free. As you can imagine, me as someone who actually needs money to live, pay mortgage, feed family etc, didn't take to kindly to this POV. :mad: Perhaps this is what the doctor down at Gatwick was eluding to two and a half years ago during my initial when he said it is becoming a cut throat industry to work in and why he had chosen to remain flying privately !! |
ACP,
I am not getting to you or others about paying for ratings....I it is up to you if you want to pay or not...not me. I do have the money to pay, but I am not willing to pay for that. I am currently flying commercially and not instructing....yet I have never spent more than $1 more than was required to get a CPL/IR. If everyone continues to pay right after flight training there will be no job satisfaction for anyone! Soon it will escalate from paying for a TR to pay to fly the sectors as well!?!?!? no?? What if you had to pay as much as a passenger to sit up there? Would you pay for that? What if they required pilots to pay for the approach fees? Landing fees? Would that be ging to far? Maybe to you....or others it would, but others after you would..... Its just another snowball effect! I am not trying to say what you did is wrong....and I am not trying to get back at Scroggs or anyone on here, I just want to point out that there really is no end to it! |
TWIT-TWOO!!
This thread is the most depressing I've ever read. The "profession" is getting more like the Georgian and Victorian Officer Class of the British Empire. It will soon be case of the "profession" purchasing a "commission" in the "Airline", just for the pleasure of saying at the spring dances - "Captain Blackadder, just back from India - BA210 this morning, it was tough but managed to get Father to wire some money to pay for the sector. It was touch and go but the Red Cap managed to square it." "Oh Daaarling! , It must of been frightfull" Georgina says, with a resentful sigh knowing that if they did marry, they could never buy a house. " I was going to quote "charge of the light brigade" but thought that would be too close a call. In the next decade the only people who will be training are the people with too much money. There will be an almighty **** up. The industry will then decide to take away the pilot and use a computer. So that will be the end of that!! Accountancy is looking pretty good at the moment!! TWIT-TWOO!! :ok: |
The computer-flown aircraft is already here - at least to a limited degree! However, they aren't going to replace you and me for many years yet - at least untill the 777-200LR, 787, 747-8, A350 and A380 are out of service, which is probably 40 years away.
One of the problems with a forum like this is that people can tend to focus on the negative and forget about the positive. In the same way as the interminable integrated/modular debate seems to suggest that you need to be an integrated graduate to get a job, the SSTR debate tends to suggest that you also need to have a jet rating with line training to get a job, especially if you're not an integrated garduate! Neither argument is true, believe me. If you really must get into a 737 flightdeck at the earliest opportunity, then there may be some - but not much - merit in these arguments. If you are prepared to wait and go a less direct route, there is no reason why you should pay for any of your training post-fATPL. There is no shame in going the night freight/TP route - it's the way the majority of current (non ex-mil) jet pilots went. In any case, what's so good about a 737 versus an ATR? Even my A346 is just a flying office; there's little or no fun involved in the air - that's all on the ground these days! For fun, I'd far rather fly a small TP. At 50, my mortgage and kids won't permit me - but you don't (or shouldn't) have those responsibilities; you should be aiming to enjoy yourselves and learn all you can on your way to eventual longhaul dinosaur-hood! Remember, if it's not fun you're not doing it right. Scroggs |
Scroggs, thanks for the wise words.
I certainly don't think that it needs to be a 737/320 right seat or nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly take one if it's offered to me! The bit I find hard (just graduated fATPL) is to bridge the hours gap for TP or even Navajo/Seneca/Chieftain etc. Most places seem to want 700 hours for those jobs. So I (and many others, I assume) need to bridge the gap from 250 or so to 700. I have ruled out FI for now, because it's expensive and a lot of chief captains don't seem to think that watching someone else flying a C152 around the circuit is going to be too beneficial. Which pretty much leaves para-dropping and aerial photography. Have any other bright ideas? Thx for the good work on the forums P PS All instructors out there, don't jump on me for the FI comment. I actually believe it would make me a better pilot, but my words were based on what I have heard from the horse's mouth. |
How I see it, its just the thin edge of a wedge, and it benefits those that can afford it.
In no other profession do you pay for practicing your profession, which is what you are doing in effect when flying those passengers in that 737. You are being used as CHEAP LABOR. You might not feel that way, but the airline isn't a charity - thats exactly what you are doing - being used. Those that condone this should really think about the situation. It's all fine for some to say "100 hours is OK" but "500hrs is too much" - sounds like desperate justification to me. And I came up "the old way". |
hello,
another problem I can see in this "pay to work"nasty scam, in the case of a commercial/airliners involved in an accident, a crash.... If they find out that the copilot was still paying to log hours, it means he is a student and not a fully first officer responsible of his acts, and in this case the company will be held responsible to let "student" pilots fly on commercial aircrafts. personaly, if you are "hiring"a student copilot.I would stop immediately. I have heared that the FAA , for the same reason, has not authorized student pilots to fly charter's aircrafts in the USA.What about Canada? if I was working for the CAA, for this only one good reason, I will not authorized pilots to act as a "student pilot" on aircraft with hundred of soul. I do not say that a pilot paying is less"good" than a pilot fully paid, but a pilot paying is still a student and in this case can not be held responsible. |
If the student pilot has the relevant type rating, he or she is fully legal to fly the aircraft with passengers on board. You'll have to try harder than that, A320rider!
Scroggs |
scrogg, I agree with you, but If a pilot survive in a crash, I bet with you, he will turn his hat from pilot to student.
as a proof, you are not fully employed by an airline if you pay for your hours, and in this case, the CAA/ operator can be held responsible. It is a concept hard to understand for a novice, but if you are sued by your passengers, you can say:" well guys, I am paying to fly, what do you expect?if you want fly with a good airline, why do not you fly with a company who do not hire students?if you have a problem with that, sue the CAA or the director of my "flight school" but not me, I have no income anyway, and I am fully in debt!!!" all I can see: they have turned (with the help of the CAA)a company with multimillions $ aircraft to an flight school, with one captain and one student on board paying for his hours, and in the back 200-300 pax. for me, this is totally illegal, and this kind of operation should be banned from our EU sky like the FAA did on their territory. secondly, a copilot paying to log hours on a plane with PAX,does not act as a commercial pilot.Commercial license give the privilege to be paid.If you are not paid, you are acting as a privat pilot or as a student pilot and again this is not legal under CAA rules. legally, you can not even log your hours! |
While all complaining about paying for type ratings, the biggest contributory factor to why an SSTR seems so enticing is the fact instructors pay is so low. I traditionally objected to the idea of paying for a type rating; but for a good number of people, when you consider the pay cut you need to take to instruct full time, over the span of one year that is more than the price of a type rating. Furthermore alot of instructors still end up paying for a rating.
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