Hi

I have checked about the HSBC loan at Oxford and was briefed when I went to the 'trials'; there is no need for security in the sense of signing away your parents house etc.

Quincy,

That's really good news and the opposite of what their Finance Director told me a month ago.

All is not lost then!

JGT

Hmm, well I don't mean to counteract what the FD says but that is the impression I got.

I am refering specifically to the sponsorships (eg TC and Excel) not to the APP (which does require security). If I had security I would forget the sponsorships and get myself to a FTO. But I don't so I am stuck.

I was discussing APP with him - all makes sense now!

Anyway back on thread-

Has anyone spoken to anyone at Cabair regarding financing of the £37,644 personal contribution?

Have to agree with Quincy on this one.After recieving pack in the post all looked good unti I read the finance part.£38000 from you and £24000 from them,re-payable all from a salary of 25K when employed.This rules me out from the start;the maths just don't add up!

Hello,

I'm going to flying 6 hours to EGLL for these assesments. Does anyone know if the 17th is for everyone at the same time? Will the other stages be very close together is accepted?

Cheers

Alfaaloop,

Agreed. Nice of them to put the offer on the table, and certainly any offer of employment prior to training is a fantastic thing to have, but....

...having to repay that much cash on a pretty average salary, all the while being at the bottom of the food chain should any downsizing come....Just not so attractive.

I get the impression its a scheme that will be very attractive for those who can already put the cash together for the course. For those that can't it doesn't really open any doors in the classic meaning of a "sponsrship"

Not after this for the salary, but if I can't get the training paid off in 7 years then the whole business looks grim.

Re-arrange this well known sentence: point the missing!

With FlyBE you would have a job unlike hundreds of other wannabes. Furthermore, you won't stay at the bottom of the seniority list for very long at all so if there was any downsizing you'd be secure And in case you hadn't noticed, FlyBE is expanding very quickly with a Dash 8 being delivered at the rate of approx one per month for the next couple of years. Oh and there are the Emb 195s on order. Also, how long do you think it would take to get to command and what is the salary then? No idea? Have a look on ppjn.

When the industry takes a downturn inrecruiting (which it will) you'll be fighing over jobs like this. You'll be fighting over any job, in fact.

Fair points, but the fact is, for those of us for whom sponsorship is a necessity, this partial access to a loan, followed by an average salary can't really get us far at all.

Compared to the recent Jarez or OAT schemes, as I said, this is really a scheme for those who already have most of the cash together and simply need the extra loan and the job guarantee.

It's not to knock the course, but it doesn't open anywhere near as maony doors as the 3 previous schemes have.

Dave

Roger that. The OAT ones are 100% better. It is the difference between being able to train (OAT) or not (Cabair). There is nothing I can do at the moment other than keep playing the lottery. Plus time is ticking for me on the age front. :ugh:

I too was disgusted when I opened my application pack, I mean a guaranteed job is all well and good but how can they still call this 'sponsorship' when it doesn't help anyone who can't get the money together?

I also think why can't they do a 3day assessment block instead of making people pay for 3 return flights, travel, accomodation, £60, then £120 (that's if your lucky enough to get through to the 3rd phase!)

Also, anyone applying with less that 60hrs but the ATPL's done?

Oleocookie

Yeah I like the way that they charge you £160 just to apply! What other industry would do that?!:yuk:

I ended up forking out £500 to apply for the OAT TCX shceme. (200 in OATs pocket and 300 for class 1).

Others may flame me with the usual platitudes such as '..if you really want it you will put up with it....' etc etc but it is unfair that FTOs charge for applications especially when one considers that the overall cost of the course is in the region of 60k. I know recruitment is expensive but other industries (with very similar recruitment/assesment prcesses) don't charge.

I can not afford to attend all these assesments especially as the chances of getting through are so minimal (6 places for Flybe).

Last time I looked FlyBE was a commercial airline. It's not there to help anyone but the owners get some return on their investment. Nobody is forcing you to apply for these schemes. If you don't like the terms, don't apply, simple as that. It was only 4 years ago that experienced pilots were being laid off. Profit margins in the airline business are extremely slim and FlyBE naturally expects a return on its investment.

Does anyone know roughly how many applications they recieve for these sponsorships? It sounds like a lot of potential applicants will be deterred from applying for finanicial reasons.
Any ideas??

Ham Phisted

Just the kind of reply I was expecting! ;)

Every company has commercial interests but they don't charge people to apply for jobs. The aviation industry has got the wanabees by the balls cos they are so desperate to fly. The airlines are taking advantage of this desperation by passing on the costs of recruitment to the applicants rather than absorbing them as a business cost. Very canny but very exclusive.

You are correct in your assumption that I do not have to apply; which is why I am not going to.

Quote:

Profit margins in the airline business are extremely slim and FlyBE naturally expects a return on its investment.


They are not really investing anything.YOU are paying the lions share and YOU have to pay back every penny of the money they will LEND you.In return,they retain their staff for a minimum of 5 years and if you do want to move on before that they still get all their money back.It's a win-win situation for them.

We all accept that to get started in this,our dream career,is going to cost,and cost big.But there is a point where that cost is just to high and this offer,for most,is.
Saying that,everyones circumstances are different and if you are in a position to raise the cash then go for it-ultimately you will be flying for an airline and that's where we are all trying to get to,but for the time being I will have to continue on the pay-as-you-go route and join the waiting masses with 250hrs.

sponsorship
 

AFAIR, the questions were about as stated, i.e. AS level, although I would say anyone who can deal with GCSE math will cope. No calculators are allowed, nor are they necessary; rough working on paper was allowed I think. speed/time/distance covers most of it, but there are general maths questions as well. It's all multiple guess too, so the answer is always in front of you, albeit beside 4 other wrong ones. The hardest thing I found about it was the time pressure; you can't afford to get hung up on a question. As to applicant numbers, last year Tim Sharland (one of the cabair chaps, and one you will probably have to impress at interview in the 3rd stage) mentioned during his intro that the 50 or so at the 2nd stage had been picked from "several hundred"; make of that what you will.

cheers,
Dogbert

sorry to interupt the flow... but has anyone still not recieved their application pack? i'm still waiting even though i emailed on the first day the ad came out on website.

I have got it. Terms are quite extended. If FlyBe does not hire you soon after completion, there is something in the contract about a 2 year holding pool. So you pay a lot thousands and if you're not selected in 2007 you have to wait till 2009 before you can leave?

Mee too, the first day, got the pack in on wednesday.

got mine now :) can't apply tho cos dont finish uni till june and course starts in march, maybe next yr...

FLYBE sponsorship
 

Hi

Ive been trying to get details of the first set of tests - without any luck - no one tells you anything!!!

Is it the aptitude testing methods like with diagrams, pictures and the likes or is it more geard up to the likes of a maths/physics exam.

Im at uni studying Engineering, do the tests concentrate on any on easpect of the syllabus ie electronics, formulae etc???

Any help would be appreciated cheers
:ok:

ok - just thinking out aloud here:

For this scheme you require a loan of 38000. For starters, since the demise of the HSBC pilot loan scheme, i have no idea where to go to get a loan of this size (HSBC Professional studies loan onlygoes upto 25k)!! Even if i did find a bank willing, a good interest rate would be approx 6-7%. Working on 7% over 5 years, this means paying back approx 8800 per year. This is approx 680 per month. Add to this the 330 for paying back course costs equals 1010 per month. As has been previously stated approx salary is approx 25000 + 2500 sector pay equals 27500. After tax and NI approx 1600 per month. Then, in my case, take off student loan and loan for PPL equals 1300 per month. So ow do i live on 300 a month, what about rent and bills, food etc. Even those of you who have no student loan of PPl debt you still have to live off of 500-600 a month. How?? I am currently an aero engineer taking home approx 1500 net a month and its still difficult - rent, bills, car, food etc.
Unless you have 38k in cash in your pocket i just dont see how anyone can afford to do this!!!

thoughts??

stu

Buy a lottery ticket!!!!

G-MANN

yes it is hard for a lot of people to find this money. and pay it off. in some ways its almost better going off on your own. but you hav to admit the 25K or so they put in really helps, if you had the choice in finding a 40K loan and a 60K one which would u want to find?

Regarding the testing, from my experience, the maths section was to GCSE level (ie no integration/differentiation but a fair amount of arithmatic and some formula manipulation).

The physics paper did go up to AS level and it did require a certain amount of prerequisite knowledge (basic electrical theory and newtonian mechanics are topics I can remember).

I brought AS revision guides for maths and physics to get myself up to speed for the tests.

There was a timed maths section where you were given a varying limited amount of time to answer a question before the next question was read out (30-60 seconds springs to mind). In my opinion, this section is the toughest as you have to be fully comfortable with long div/long multiplication under pressure to do well here.

It will be also be worth bringing along your own lunch to the testing day as the cafe in the building was rather limited.

As with most things, time spent in preparation is seldom wasted.
Good luck to all applying, and if you arent one of the few to be selected, dont get too disheartened, there is more than one way into the right hand seat. :ok:

phase 2 and 3, are they just a day each?
phase 2 just tells you of a day, and phase 3 is on a week starting?

Phases 2 and 3 are one day each.
The week commencing bit is due to the selectors running a few days of phase 3 during the same week.

thats what i was hoping for.

(its all a matter of time off work)

I know the maths on this are the most appealing sums in the world, but as someone said earlier its the difference between you having to ask HSBC for £38,000 compared to £60,000 for the TCX/Excel type schemes at OATs. At least Flybe are putting their hand in their pocket for the remaining sum, and are theoretically 'loaning' you this amount interest free for 6yrs or so until your debt to them is repaid. Also remember that they are a company paying for professional training, so they are not paying VAT on their share, which again saves you a few pounds!

People are always so quick to praise the OATs and CTC style scheme, but none of the airlines in those dip into their pockets to help you up front and as a result they have no real inclination to take you on as an F/O at the end of the day if the market has taken a downturn. At least with the Flybe scheme, you know that they will be fairly keen to get their £20,000 back out of you!

So the sponsorship isn't 100% free like the good old days of BA, but it strikes me that for anyone looking at starting training in the near future that this scheme brings the cost down from the £60,000 for an integrated towards the amount of money you would need to find to do the modular route.

One final thought ... I suggest to you all that if you talk to HSBC about borrowing the money and you can go to them saying that you have a guaranteed job at the end with a starting salary of £26,000 + duty pay and that the company involved are helping out by paying a third of your training costs up front, that you are a lot more appealing candidate for the loan than the guy who has not been through an airline selection process and beaten 300 other people to a place on the scheme but wants £60,000 in the hope that at the end you will walk into a job - seems a bit risky to me!

Alpha Charlie

All salient points but I think you are missing the crux of my critism of the Flybe scheme and why the OAT ones are better: namely that the Flybe scheme does not make flying more accessible to people who are financially dissadvantaged like myself. The OAT scheme (for me) is by far the better because it makes the loan available whereas I do not have access to the funds required by Flybe.

Incidentally, the Thomas cook were going to pay for 1/3 of the costs, without requiring repayment.

QED

a lot of people are fegetting the secuirty required of £40,000 in case you dont make the grade, or leave early. where are most people going to get that from.

(this is different from the 38,000 or so you put into the course)

The funds being made available for the TCX/Excel type schemes are being made available to you by HSBC through a loan negotiated by OATs. HSBC and Cabair have the same arrangements. If you are going to attend an integrated course at Cabair you can apply for the same loan just as you can at OATs. Also the amount required for the Flybe scheme is under the £40,000 cut off point at which HSBC start wanting hard guarantees (i.e your parents house). Below that amount they generally seem happy with a parents signature.

The Flybe scheme just hasn't done all the leg work for you and got the loan forms ready for you sign, you just have to prepare a simple business type plan and talk to HSBC yourself.

As for the Flybe guarantee, again its simply a parent's signature that is required if you have no major assets (ie a house) yourself.

and if for some reason you fail, ect then its bye bye parents house.

So if you fail at OATs with a loan from HSBC, how are you going to pay the bank back? I am guessing, even though the loan might be fully unguaranteed, that you might get a job doing what you are already trained/qualified in, or even at Tesco's or somewhere, so that you have some form of income before HSBC come after you for everything you have!! Therefore, I am presuming that this is also what you would do if you parents had signed a form (not giving HSBC their house, but a simple guarantee form saying that they could make the payments if you failed to) before HSBC started asking them to make payments on your behalf.

Anyway, rather than nit picking about the finer points of securities on a huge bank loan, I am sure that anyone who has made it through either the OATs, Cabair, CTC, Jerez or anyone else's pre-selection process has what it takes to complete the course with flying colours. Why else would HSBC give unsecured loans? Because they trust that the preselection will weed out those for might fall at the first hurdle!

But the big if, is always what will the job market be like in 13 months time when I graduate, and will I be good enough to get one of those few jobs that are around at the time for low houred pilots?

But hey, this is aviation ... and we are all crazy enough and keen enough to take that risk because we want to fulfil that dream! All I am trying to say, is the financing on the Flybe scheme should not be enough to put you off from applying, especially if you are already considering getting a loan from HSBC to go to OATs! Whether its Cabair, OATs, TCX with OATs, Excel with OATs, Flybe with Cabair, CTC Wings, at the end of the day you will pay for you licence in full, its just clever ways of trying to help you spread that cost up front and for the next few years, and to me, whilst it might not be the best deal that ever graced the planet as far as pilot sponsorships/cadetships go, I think an interest free and VAT free loan from an airline for a third of your training costs is a darn sight better than 2% above base! Now I am not saying that the OAT airline schemes are not good as well, they just do the maths in a different way, you just need to be flexible to see that other ways can work as well, and be prepared to put in a bit of leg work with HSBC yourself to secure the financing.

AlphaCharlie

I know what you mean and I for one would expect to pass the course if selected but the problem is that as I understand it security is required for Flybe. And I don't have any.

On the Flybe prospectus it says

'This document requires the provision of security by way of gurantees acceptable to Flybe of up to 40,000'. These gurantees
are to cover costs repayble to Flybe should the candidate fail...'

it then goes on

'The balance of the course fees (i.e. 37,000) will be met by the selected candidate.

Does this mean you need to pay the 37,000 plus give a gurantee for 40,000 or are they refering to the same amount.

Thanks

i belive it means you give them 37,000 for your training, and have gurantee(s) to the value of 40,000 on top, which are only payable if you fail or quit.

FLYbe sponsorship (if you can call it that) stage two...
 

Hey all, just got an email inviting me to stage two, but they have moved the date FORWARD to the 15th instead of 17th. I hope nobody had made plans. Luckily I'm too broke to even consider going anywhere!! :-p

Time to start cramming for all those lovely test/questions etc.

Does anybody know how many people are getting through to each stage?

Can those of us who have not received an email assume we have been unsuccessful then? Not much notice to organise flights etc if you have to, esp since its now on the 15th.

Hi, got an email yesterday evening saying that I'm through too.

Had a look at the previous years threads regarding the application process and it looks like around 60 people attended the 2nd phase out of 350 odd applications - don't know how true that is tho.

Anybody know from previous years what we can expect from the physics and maths - not sure what bits to revise??

Goodluck