Ryanair Pay for New Joiners...
 

Thought you might be interested in this post by Wonder Boy, copied from the Terms and Endearments forum:

That's going to make it easy to pay back your £40,000 debt, isn't it!? I should steer clear of this company if I were you - you could earn more as a labourer at B&Q.


Scroggs

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

This is the end surely, i mean for god sake :* :mad: how much more worse can it get :confused:

:sad:

Hi,
This is a joke! Really! They totally take the p...!:mad: :} :8
Unfortunately, it will go on as more and more people are ready to put themselves through that c##p to get ahead of the game! Very sad!

FNav

It'll be 1 airline I wont be applying too after gaining the fATPL.

The problem that there will always be people out there with 'mug' written on their forehead who will happily join this flying circus. I would urge anyone thinking of joining Ryanair to say no and wait for a far better opportunity to come around. The job market is picking up and why should you settle for a tin pot rocket outfit when you have invested so much in your training? As a prop F/O I am horrified to see that I earn about 4 grand more then someone who sits in a 737 and has paid for their rating!

Makes an FI(r) salary look attractive - cos of course to get the job you have to pay for the type rating

This will always happen whilst people are desperate to fly. Long term it still works out, however MOL et al know this and will continue to screw over anyone who is desperate enough to bend over and take it. I don't agree with him but it makes commercial sense. Let's hope that one day something bad doesn't happen to cause an investigation into crews. Heaven knows what it will uncover.

Mr G

They have to pay you all that extra to compensate for living in Humberside. ;) :}

When you back in NCL?

Merry Xmas mate.:D

Jesus Scroggs I knew it was bad, but I didn’t realise it was that bad. Hopefully it’s a bit academic for me, as I will never ever apply to an employer that charges me £50 to read my CV, but if O’Leary is setting the tone for everyone else . . .

Just a thought, but if you’re on a Ryanair training contract (i.e. starvation-wage basic pay and sector pay making up the difference) and you get a really nasty cold – you know, the sort where you’re not really fit to fly, but it’s a judgement call and you could probably get away with it – are you going to phone in sick or turn up and get paid? Answers on a postcard to the CAA.

I wouldn't even fly Ryanair anymore. I would rather fly BA or BMI, and nine times out of ten its even cheaper to do it this way, and you don't have another hour and £20 on a bus or a train after you landed.

This is typical BS.

"I wouldn't even fly Ryanair anymore. I would rather fly BA or BMI, and nine times out of ten its even cheaper to do it this way, and you don't have another hour and £20 on a bus or a train after you landed."

And the topic is:

Ryanair Pay for New Joiners...

MK

MK

The emphasis on my mail is the words "wouldn't even".

If I "wouldn't even" use them as a customer, I am sure as hell "wouldn't" apply for a job with them!

Ok so maybe it is 'bad' in comparison, but the grass is always greener on the other side.

Why not moan about emerald's pathetic salary, or that of a flying instructor?

You have to start somewhere, and to me, it's an oppurtunity with what I'm told by friends within the company is generally well run and has a good training record. Getting paid, however much or little, to fly a jet is far far better than paying to fly a prop on a 'b&q' salary.

Maybe it's something to do with my age, but I'll be applying and i'll take every possible oppurtunity that comes along. I agree with you that it is not ideal but like I say, there's always something better, no matter where you go.

Cheers
obk

You'll all still be moaning like this in a years time, when anyone who gets a job with FR will have 900 737 hours and can stay if they like it or go elsewhere.
Have any of you even got a job?, one of you hasn't even got a fATPL yet.
Don't be fussy guys, the clock waits for no-one......!

It most certainly is for the low-timer, which is why they shouldn't touch ryanair with a bargepole.

Scroggs,
clearly anyone with half a brain would take your advice and steer clear. Regrettably the comments by CIPO and OBK show why this bull$hit will only continue. Time for Europe-wide union with all pilots as members. Ah if only...

obk , my poor boy , your friends have misinformed you ,
the company may show large profits , but this does not imply that it is well run , it isnt and at the moment it is in crisis , all the cost saving ideas are grinding this company down from the inside out , it is self destructing .
read the papers or even do a search for irish goverment debates on the state of ryanair ...its so rotten even the goverement is debating it ....
as for training there are some fantastic line training captains ,notice i said "some" but training in general is CRAP...you are thrown in at the deep end and expected not just to swim but to win the olympic gold ,
try learning to fly a 737 doing 6 sector days when some sectors can be done in less then 20 mins ( as a newbie your brain will still be back at base)
training in ryanair is in complete disarray , whether you are scheduled for base/line training can be complete luck .
and thats all organised by a rather nasty little gnome in eastmids who dosnt give a damn about you and if he can go out of his way to screw you he will (its not really his fault , its the company culture , its what hes been thought to do )

if you want good training i believe easy are supposed to be good
(maybe some one could clarify ? )
in any case thats where my CV's going if ryanair dosnt shape up in the next while

just my 2 cents worth :yuk:

Lets compair salaries
 

Anyone out there who is flying with Aer Arann care to give us their story after twelve months on the ATR?????? Are the conditions better, worse, similar OR are Ryanair in a league of their own.

You could get the rating and go on the game like some of the cabin crew have .. that'd help wouldn't it?

So you going to put on a short skirt and get down Kings Cross NM??
:p

Airway asked earlier if it can get much worse.

It can.

You could spend not only money ona type rating but also pay to fly fare paying passengers around for Astreaus.

You can buy 500 hours of "line training" from them. this equates to a pilot not being employed by an airline for a year. What fantastic deal that is.

Ailines such as Astreaus and Ryanair and the awful pay that self funding first officers get on the Air Asia contracts are going to damage the emplyment conditions for pilots throughout Europe.

Please, if anyone is reading this and is considering buying a type rating or line tme, think of the future - your future and what is happening to this industry. there are people out there making big bucks from wannabes so they can fund their retirement. They do not even consider you when they sell you a type rating they are more focussing on the beach bar in the carribean for themselves.

Mine Got .. you've mentioned Astreaus .. you will fry for that :eek:

CIPO, you too seem somewhat misinformed about the job market. You reckon after you have finished taking it up the a$$ for a year at FR you can go off and get something better? Well, sorry to break the bad news but as FR gets away with this sort of BS, the rest will try to drag their T's and C's down to the same demeaning level. Then your hoped for greener grass will look a similar shade of brown to FR and you will only have 30 odd years to retirement (on a crap pension). I suggest you switch off MS flightsim and talk to some real airline pilots about T's and C's (and I don't mean high seniority people at BA etc on old contracts, which none of us will ever get) and have a look at the Terms and Endearments thread. You, and many other wannabes, may find the experience quite educational, as well as depressing.
The sooner people realise that accepting FR's conditions is only an illusory gain and that they are in fact destroying their own future, the better for us all.

It really isn't OBK! - not with thousands of pounds of debt and being of the intelligence required to pass such exams, it really is not. It is demeaning, drags down industry pay, and it is sad that you would stoop to that level.

Just get a non-aviation job until a better-paid one comes up.

Do you think O'Leary works for free as well?

It is this sort of idiotic, short sighted moronic comment that people like Ryanair and other TRTO's are playing on. Working on the fear of people in debt and dangling a carrot of flying a jet. The people who can afford to buy type ratings will drive up to work in their expensive German sports cars they bought when they worked in the City or sold their own business to fund their training. Flying ability is nothing compared to the paying ability, and that is being shown in the quality of some new hires that are appearing on the flightdeck.

Hey Captain Chuckles

I agree with the paying for type rating comment but hold fire on the having a dig at people who have been successful in another industry before joining the whole aviation scene.... who says just because someone can get through their training without being a £100k in debt they are not going to make a good pilot... thats a pretty big generalisation.

Just ask yourself WHY they have been able to fund their training without getting into debt.... perhaps because they tend to be very bright capable people who work very hard... why does that necessarily make them bad pilots?

One of the frequent complaints I read on Pprune is the "dumbing down" of talent in the industry and pilots being fed up with being viewed as "little more than a busdriver". Well think about it this way... take a look at the academic qualifications and general level of ability you have to demonstrate even to be "considered" as a potential employee of an investment bank, or to become a doctor, dentist even an accountant for that matter... a selection of professions to which comparisons are frequently drawn in reference to pay scales on this very forum. Then take a look at the academic qualifications needed to get on a course at OAT or FTE.... the phrase "night and day" springs to mind.

I'll wager that in the days of the old sponsored training programs unless you were bloody good academically and in terms of all round ability at school/university the chances of getting a sniff of a cadetship was pretty small.

Perhaps your anger would be better focused on ensuring that a higher quality of "wanabee" both academically and in terms of ability is able to start training in the first place rather than differentating simply between those who can pay and those who can't.

Higher basic entrance standards into the profession = fewer but higher quality pilots in my book.... hmmm maybe that would even help overcome the supply/demand inbalance of newly qualified, low houred pilots that enables companies like Ryanair to take the piss??

It would also prevent those that are not up to the grade from starting training in the first place and racking up a huge amount of debt only to end up without a job... they might not like it but you'd be doing them a favour in the long-run

Rather than blame wanabees based on simply whether they are rich or poor why not take a look at the system that is letting in less and less qualified people who are sold a dream by a training organisation whose sole intention is to crank out as many "qualified pilots" as possible.

To turn a well known expression on its head...

"Train monkeys... you only have to pay them peanuts"

... no wonder T&Cs are going only one-way...

Grass strip you make some very accurate..and well thought out points...however..you've missed the point. This thread has nothing to do with the quality of wannabe or their ability to get deep into debt....and although your comments are generally accurate(in terms of those with the cash to do it)...I wonder what your level of exposure to the industry actually is..(not a dig at you..just a polite enquiry) The present problem has arisen out of clever marketing, unrealistic expectations, and personal greed. It is overly simplistic to say abritrary standards need to be raised to prevent the "chaff" from entering this profession. As it stands there are plenty of those that are in love with the thought of that shiney braid on their shoulders...the smell of Jet A1...and would be happy to sell their left nut if they thought it would get them a job. I suggest you get off the soap box for a moment and examine the situation pragmatically...then and only then will you see its not a problem with standards..its an issue of those in a postion to exploit...exploiting those who believe they can get there at any cost.

OBK....I dont usually get peeved off but...you Bl@%dy fool....Ryanair will take your money..then take a bit more..then change the rules so they can take the rest....its not an opportunity..its folly..pure and simple. Before you howl at me...I dont fly jets..I fly turbo-props..(happily..contentedly...and someday I'll get a jet job)..having dropped meat bombs...towed gliders...positioned a/c for maintenance..swept floors..worked in pubs...driven a mini-bus. And yes if you think you should jump straight into the RH seat of a shiney new boeing..go for it...I know I'm £30-40 better off already


:mad:

Scroggs sorry for the harsh words.......I just wish these muppets would open their eyes!

El nino

DO you have a job?
I don't play ms flight sim.
I have 15-20 airline pilots(BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus) i can talk to.

And as for FR having crap training, you should try and pass their new sim check for cadets............

CIPO
if you calmed down a bit then maybe el nino would talk to you too ......then you'd have another airline pilot you could chat to.

if you read his profile you would see that he is a commercial pilot ,


and while were at it , try passing a sim check in a crap BAC 1-11 sim in dublin
and then complain to me

CIPO, as signeti points out, yes I do have an airline job. I imagine any one of your mates in "BMI,Virgin,BA,Aer Lingus" would agree absolutely wholeheartedly with what I and others are saying, if for no other reason that it is the T's and C's in these very companies that the FR way has damaged so badly.

Very interesting statistic for those advocates of the FR way as the stepping stone. I believe from very good FR sources that the amount of FR pilots who have succeeded in getting a BA job in the last while is zero and the amount at VS in the last few years is 1. A damning statistic considering the amount of people in FR who consider it as a stepping stone to better. Ponder on that those who want to spend obscene money to recieve peanuts from OLeary.

Grass Strip Basher,

You are missing the point I am making. I am very concerned about the current trend of airlines making pilots pay to work. There has always been a large percentage of pilots who have paid for their own training combined with the military retirees, these people have made up the mjority of of the pilot workforce. Sponsored cadets have always been a minority.
What we are now seeing is the cynical abuse of people's hopes and dreams.

My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use. Unless the new hire is very sharp and a good operator, our saving on training costs is not significant. sadly the accountants run the show and do not see what is happening on the line.

Also I do not play MS Flight Sim. I hate it.

Advice
 

We need some advice from Spaceman1000 on training!

I don't have a German sports car, nor do I have all the money in the world.

I'm in this game primarily for the flying. Maybe because I'm young, the thought of paying for a type rating doesn't really put me off that much because I've been partly bought up with the fact and I've plenty of time, hopfully, to recuperate from huge debts, and I'm keen.

So let me get this straight...

1. You apply to GECAT, or whoever, to do a RYR SSTR.
2. They accept you, you do the type rating (£20K)
3. You then apply to RYR (£50)
4. They then sim check you (£???)
5. If "lucky" enough to be offered a job, they pay you peanuts and treat you rougher than a rugby ball at an All Blacks game?

Jeeeeeeeez. I thought I was crazy.

OBK,

At the end of the day flying is a job pure and simple. An enjoyable job it has to be said BUT you still have to earn a decent crust to live. When you factor in the huge initial outlay, idle talk like you are currently spouting makes no sense at all. Or perhaps I'm missing something and you plan to live on hot air alone! :rolleyes: Anyway, as soon as you grow up and realise the folly of your attitude, you might recognise the damage these terms and conditions are doing to the industry.

I have no doubt you will live to regret your attitude one day! :*

Captain Chuckles - W.r.t. 'My experience of people who have bought a type rating from a third party TRTO is that it does not save the company very much money as they have usually been trained to a different set of SOPs than those that we use'

Err - all other issues aside - given that you say that such training doesn't save a company very much money, could you please explain, in detail, where / how your own airline manages to spend what would be in the region of, say, £18,000 - £22,000 ( the typical cost of a type-rating ) on line-training its SOPS to somebody who has SSTR'd ?

Puritan...there are several UK..and EU based carriers currently training crews in the US...for around £11000.00 per person (inclusive of accomodation + airfares)...no vat...JAA compliant.....and with instructors who are every bit as experienced as they are here. Oh and this doesn't take into account the present strength of the pound.
Value for money I think...and yes crews are bonded for 3 years....737, A320, A340, and 767.....(not sure about any other types at the moment).


H
:ok:

Ray Ban

I don't think that was necessary. We're obviously different but there's no need for childish abuse.

I noticed on your profile that you have an FI rating. I'm not being ignorant here but assuming you are a full time instructor, how do you manage to earn a decent crust? I ask because I'm still investigating the avenues I can go down as a low hour pilot. I've always been told that flight instructors don't earn very much and find it hard to earn a living, especially in the winter.

Cheers

Obviously snobbery rules with some people here, we've got jobs so lets slag off all those willing to go for Ryanair selection.
All the pilots I know are 100% behind me going for this, and they would NOT agree with your opinions.
I'm not a fool, I know a lot of the t and c's aren't great but i'd rather sign up to it than be a PPL or IR instructor.
All i want is some line experience and am very willing to pay 20k for an 800 TR. Would have second thoughts if it was a 200 or an ATR rating, but you don't get a better rating.
How many 737 3-800's are flying worldwide?????

Hope I don't turn into a job snob when it comes along.........

Whilst I don't quite agree with SSTRs I can understand why some of us do them. What I can't fathom however, is that after paying for said type rating and thus saving the airline many thousands of pounds, you have to work for such a shamefully low salary. That's my real problem with Ryanair, they want it both ways, which frankly stinks.

Anyone who pays for a type rating is doing themselves and the industry a great disservice.

Why not just join the French foreign legion if you have such mercenary attitudes.

Or don stockings and suzzies if you want to prostitute yourselves!