Geezer

I think you'll find that women of most of the Middle Eastern countries are not allowed to be cabin crew only the men are according to a hostie friend of mine in GF.
Once again Maximus i cannot disagree with you.

Maybe its time that ICAO did make one language an official one and i'd bet a pound to a penny it would be English and as for French ATC.....OH LORDY......Thats when they're working of course.

747Downwind.

To your point 4 im with you dear boy!

Fto60

Indeed if a common language were to be designated it would no doubt be English. We can only hope...
I would like to add apologies for accusing you of bitterness and vitriol etc earlier in this. In hindsight, the argument you make is a valid one. A free flow in all directions would be a great thing. My point is mainly the unliklihood of this happening however and how, to be flippant, we need to get over it.
And maybe I should get worked up over it. My (Irish and much talked about) company has multitudes of foreign pilots while they are no doubt many unemployed Irish pilots around. (although whether they would want to be here is a different matter!). On the other hand, the mix of nationalities makes the job more interesting and enjoyable. Tough one innit?

Maximus

Once again it takes a big man and with that in mind i apologise to those who may have been offended.

I only want a level playing field and look forward to that day.

F60

Although I cant abide by some of your comments......I commend you for raising such an interesting...and devisive thread..at least it has stimulated some debate on the subject..and it beats the hell out of eastenders and emmerdale!!..(wifey forces me to watch!)


cheers


H

Haughtney

Sorry old chap cant claim starting this this one i only added some fuel to the fire.

I believe it was fly half so blame him!

Its been a good one with some intersting comments made on both side.

I hear QF is recruiting maybe i'll apply.......well if you cant beat 'em join them.

Flaps to 60: Thankyou sir, one likes to be of assistance when one can. I too appreciated your views which were a tribute to The Commonwealth, tis irratating when these PC draconians misplace genuine patriotism (even jingoism dare I say it) for totaliterianist fascism... can they not appreciate are somewhat 'over zealous' nationalism.. is it such a crime?!

We are proud of our nation, and I for one respect those who are proud of their own national identity, so I raise my glass to u flaps to 60... 'To the Queen!'


Somebody play me the national anthem;)

I heard the national anthem..at my officially becoming a brit ceremony..........I wonder if batman and robin were humming the tune as the scaled the palace walls..(you'll only get this if you live in the UK)..:p

747 Downwind

To you Sir I say "thank you" and God Save the Queen and the British aviation industry.

Yeah thanks guys for an interesting insight into this. I've got a sim assessment next month for the chance to fly for the airline which I am very excited about. Funny, turns out I don't have any competition from foreigners in this instance but from four other people within the airline! Two of them are girls so should I get worried? Are recruiters more lenient with them because they're keen to increase the proportion of female pilots within the airline? (Ouch, that hurt, can't say that can I?).

Anybody got a can opener?........................................ hehehe

Oi Fly half

I bet you carry around a bodyguard for the amount and type of "Ahem", "Discussions" you start.

Just hope they're not a female ethnic minority lesbian veggan with four kids who wants to ban the bomb and lives in Islington with a country pad in Greenham Common and you should be ok.

Joking aside, I wish you the very best of luck. It'll all be worth it when you get there. The very best of British old chap!

Haughtney

In days gone by, before PC they would have been hung drawn and quartered.........ah the good old days what! Iknow you'll always be a Kiwi at heart but i hope you enjoy living as a Brit, we're not all that bad. Toodle pip old fruit.

I have just been reading this whole thread with much interest, but to my point of view, there are a few points that should be stressed:

- the fact that Easy, Ryanair and so on are now flying a lot of extra UK routes in Europe, and unfortunately no EU carrier is authorised/able to do such thing in UK.
All those jobs are lost for EU pilots, it is just natural that a handful of those pilots deprived of jobs at home try to find something in EI or UK.

-Language : Everybody seems to acknowledge that it is much easier for a foreigner to learn English than for a Brit to learn a foreign language… I would put it this way, you are just a bunch of lazy *** moaning for nothing.

-Border protection from EU countries : another lie, I have been working in Italy, not knowing a single word of Italian, and with me there were a SWISS, a GERMAN, a GREEK, a RUSSIAN, but sure no BRITS, too difficult for them.

Agree with the Baron to a large extent. That is except for the fact that I'm a Brit employed by an operator from another European country (fancy that eh?) living and flying in Italy and also willing to learn the language. The British airlines barely gave my CV the time of day...perhaps, I'll make the most of this JAA licence and the right to live and work in the EU. Have passport, will travel...arrivederci Blighty!

To 'The Red Baron':


Who ever acknowledged it is easier for a foreigner to learn English; my mother is European and has learnt a multitude of European languages, including French, and argues that English was one of the most difficult to master.. due to its somewhat grammatical idiosynchratic irregularities.

I salute your point about the fact that many Brits are unwilling, and dare I say it incapable, of learning a second language. Good Lord, some of our academic establishments have even failed to teach pupils to a basic elementary standard... in ENGLISH!

Irrespective of the conduct of Air France et al, as a Brit my issues are BA etc who HAVE not always employed 'Home Grown' talent.. there is a contradiction in JAR as it is regulatory and NOT mandatory.

To conclude, many of my countrymen are ill-mannered abroad and sometimes behave in a manner which is uncouth.. it irritates me immensely to see their basic lack of foreign linguistic skills both in France and in particular Spain.. BUT you have referred to British Aircrew.

You see dear boy, I don't have to learn French, German or any other language whereas for you it is mandatory to learn English, and this where I think it lies for the Frenchmen.

Your post exudes the fact that you, as a nation, are bitter about having to learn and operationally use English in your workplace. So much so that you are willing to compromise safety, ref: Paris Orly 2000, British First Officer decapitated by an aircraft cleared to take off on the reciprocal runway: French being used by ATC and the French aircraft.

The Japanese, Chinese, Germans and Russians (all G8 or equivalent superpowers) accept the ICAO language as English, why do the French have to resist... English is the global dominant language of the world and that is that, c'est la vie as you say:E

747,
I completely agree with you about the use of English as the unique language in aviation. The main problem being that a lot of French aviation people can get away with just a bit of technical English and they don’t feel the need to learn more. This lack of proper command of English language could prove disastrous in some occasions.

Speaking about the accident where one copilot lost his life, the real facts are a bit different from what you say:
1) it was at De Gaulle, and the Short was taking off on the same runway but about 1500 meters from the runway end.
2) the French MD 80 was cleared for take off
3)The Short was cleared to line up from this strip after this take off.
4)The short mistook an A/C having just landed with the one about to take off
5)From where the Short lined up neither A/C could see the other due to the configuration of the runway.

So I am not sure language was involved in this accident, but again, even as a French, I agree, everybody should use English and English only.

I can not believe it.. I just spent 20 mins typing up a nice reply to u Baron Rouge, and the system crashed..:mad:

I will just stick with an abbreviated reply, u will have to excuse me.

1) Sorry, De Gaulle it was.
2) AAIB or equivalent body put it down to ATC using French, hence S360 Streamline Aviation may have understood a/c cleared to T.O and held position.
3) My issue is with some national flag carriers such as Lufthansa and in particular Air France who do not follow JAR guidlines.. allegedly:p , and NOT Europeans or Europeans that come to work in the UK.
4) I can't be bothered to type the rest cos I'm so ***** ***this crappy site crashed on me,
:{

I've no problem having members of the EU working in Europe. What I have a problem with are those from outside the EU with no formal rights to work or residency like those employed by both GypoAir (aka Ryanair) and those who fly aircraft wetleased by MyTravel etc... with Codlike registrations starting TF- and other starting with a C-. I hope the first lot get caught out by Canadian Lottery scams and the rest go expensively tech. I hope they go home soon and GOOD BUCKING RIDDANCE!

Piltdown man,
How do you feel about British citizens and British companies offering their services to eg Canada for the (UK) winter?
Are they not wetleases? Are they not taking the jobs of locals?

Learn a language and grab the opportunities instead of complaining.

Lufthansa has employed BA 737 pilots on secondment in the past and is nowhere like Air France in terms of national protection of jobs.

Don't worry to much about foreign pilots on your (UK) jobmarket.

Let's say, Poland, EU and JAA country, thanks to our CAA "smart" people, no right to issue JAA licence.

Polish pilots can't applay to UK companies.

Regarding to foreign pilots on our jobmarket, for example Wizzair, they called themself the bigest polish LCC, few polish pilot work for them.

First day when Easyjet and FR will fly from Poland will be last day to all polish LCC or even LOT.

T & C - Eurlot, ATR42, less then 1000 EUR p.m..

Good luck for everybody.

SpokoKolo

Just thought some people would like to know, I got the job and have just passed my final line check - it's all absolutely brilliant!