Include simulator time on CV?
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Include simulator time on CV?
I was wondering what the convention is when stating simulator time on a CV... should I include these hours in my total time or not?
Comments from any recruiters out there would be appreciated.
Cheers,
flyer.
Comments from any recruiters out there would be appreciated.
Cheers,
flyer.
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simulator hours
I personally havenīt included the simulator hours in flying hours. I think it is advisable to include them in your CV, especially if you have time in modern simulators with full motion or multi engine sims.
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No.
You only include flying hours in your total time and risk having your cv binned if it turns out you have a lot less total time than it first appeared.
If you have attended a JOC course then put the course on the cv, likewise with MCC, state the type if you like, but to be honest the airlines won't be impressed just because you have 20hrs in a jet sim. If you have lots of time in jet sims then you may want to put it down, but it will beg the obvious question of how come you have so much time on a jet sim but don't have a type rating/ fly the aeroplane?
I don't think lots of sim time looks great, especially if you have low total flying hours. What may impress is if you have used a jet sim for a couple of hours each month to keep your IR and handling up to speed after something like a JOC course. Expensive though.
Sorry if it sounds blunt, I know where you are coming from though, I wondered the same when I had low hours, but with hindsight it was best not to 'cloud' my flying time with sim time.
Best of luck.
PP
You only include flying hours in your total time and risk having your cv binned if it turns out you have a lot less total time than it first appeared.
If you have attended a JOC course then put the course on the cv, likewise with MCC, state the type if you like, but to be honest the airlines won't be impressed just because you have 20hrs in a jet sim. If you have lots of time in jet sims then you may want to put it down, but it will beg the obvious question of how come you have so much time on a jet sim but don't have a type rating/ fly the aeroplane?
I don't think lots of sim time looks great, especially if you have low total flying hours. What may impress is if you have used a jet sim for a couple of hours each month to keep your IR and handling up to speed after something like a JOC course. Expensive though.
Sorry if it sounds blunt, I know where you are coming from though, I wondered the same when I had low hours, but with hindsight it was best not to 'cloud' my flying time with sim time.
Best of luck.
PP
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I wouldn't include it. Anything less than a level D sim isn't going to matter one iota to an employer. To pick up on PP's comment though, yes if you have managed to get some formal training in an effort to maintain some currency on type or a rating then that could demonstrate some initiative on your part. In that case I would only still mention perhaps in your cover letter.
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Thank you chaps, your views are pretty much how I was thinking.
I hadn't included it in my total time but was concerned people might think I had included it, making it look like I had fewer real hours than in actual fact.
I'll remove the sim time from my hours breakdown and mention my MCC/JOC elsewhere on the CV.
Cheers,
flyer.
I hadn't included it in my total time but was concerned people might think I had included it, making it look like I had fewer real hours than in actual fact.
I'll remove the sim time from my hours breakdown and mention my MCC/JOC elsewhere on the CV.
Cheers,
flyer.
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Ah yes, but if I was low hours and had just finished my 'modular' or 'integrated' course I would include that on the cv, stating where I had done it. This would tell them what they need to know and you either have the IR or you don't. Still wouldn't include it in my 'total' hours though.
PP
ps similarly I now have 'hundreds' of hours in 75/76 sims, but I wouldn't include that in my total flying time either! I know when you only have a couple of hundred hours TT you want to put down everything possible to 'bolster' your cv, but believe me, we were all there once and any 'fiddling' with hours only has a detrimental effect. Be honest.....200hrs TT with a frozen ATPL/IR, so what? It's not as though the guy with 200hrs TT frozen ATPL and 23hrs on an FNPT2 sim is going to be snatched off the pile of CVs whilst yours drops in the bin, is it?
I see a lot of CVs and there are much more important aspects to worry about enhancing other than the TT. For starters, layout, spelling and as for 2 words under 'interests'(which I saw recently), well, it wouldn't interest me if I were on the receiving end...........
It's more likely your CV will be spotted for the wrong reasons when you have low time. Do everything you can to make sure it isn't binned for avoidable mistakes.
PP
ps similarly I now have 'hundreds' of hours in 75/76 sims, but I wouldn't include that in my total flying time either! I know when you only have a couple of hundred hours TT you want to put down everything possible to 'bolster' your cv, but believe me, we were all there once and any 'fiddling' with hours only has a detrimental effect. Be honest.....200hrs TT with a frozen ATPL/IR, so what? It's not as though the guy with 200hrs TT frozen ATPL and 23hrs on an FNPT2 sim is going to be snatched off the pile of CVs whilst yours drops in the bin, is it?
I see a lot of CVs and there are much more important aspects to worry about enhancing other than the TT. For starters, layout, spelling and as for 2 words under 'interests'(which I saw recently), well, it wouldn't interest me if I were on the receiving end...........
It's more likely your CV will be spotted for the wrong reasons when you have low time. Do everything you can to make sure it isn't binned for avoidable mistakes.
When someone asks about your flying experience they want to know your time in the air. Unless your job application is for operating some sort of relevent sim. then they couldn't give a stuff. They'll be pretty pissed off they thought that the magic experience number was entirely in an aeroplane (the expectation) and it subsequently turns out some amount of it wasn't in an aircraft at all.
In general they'll want an MCC (what a load of bull that one is...
Has anyone seen any change to accident/incidents/type rating pass rates since its inception? Or even a difference compared to non-MCC regions?). They won't care what it's in. If they want a type rating they'll want it done at 'their' preferred organisation or won't care & only want to see that the type is printed on your licence. If they want a certain amount of time on the type they'll want it operating the a/c in service, not in a box on stilts.
In general they'll want an MCC (what a load of bull that one is...
Has anyone seen any change to accident/incidents/type rating pass rates since its inception? Or even a difference compared to non-MCC regions?). They won't care what it's in. If they want a type rating they'll want it done at 'their' preferred organisation or won't care & only want to see that the type is printed on your licence. If they want a certain amount of time on the type they'll want it operating the a/c in service, not in a box on stilts.
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Interesting... My opinion though is that you learn much more in/from a sim than in an equal amount of time in a real plane. That's also the reason why I've added it with my tt. My total time now is 638 from which 34 hours sim.
Put me 90 minutes in a sim and I'm usually pretty tired after that, if I fly normally from a to b - no problem at all.
Put me 90 minutes in a sim and I'm usually pretty tired after that, if I fly normally from a to b - no problem at all.
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Apples and oranges Foo.
In your 34hrs sim time I would bet you were specifically training. Just flying
I suspect you are not, so I would assume you wouldn't learn as much.
Now if you were to do the same sim exercise in a real aircraft I suspect you would be much more tired than in the sim.
TT is flying and not sim time. If they wanted to know your total sim time they would ask for it. They don't so one can only draw the conclusion that they are not interested in it.
Clouding your total hours by adding in sim time risks being binned if they feel you are in some way trying to deceive them. Your risk though. I'll say it again, your 604 hours is not enhanced by adding in 34 hours in a little sim (I'm assuming it's not a full motion sim? and even if it was I still don't think it enhances your flying time ) and is not going to make the difference between interview/ no interview. Claiming more hours than you actually have may however make the decision to interview or not much easier for them.......................especially if they ask for a specific number of hours which you feel you have but they do not.
Just shows how easy it can be to filter CVs from what seems like an un-manageable pile. The whole game is about first impressions and minimising the risk of being binned. Don't give them a reason on a plate, no matter how strongly you feel about it, because it only matters how they feel about it. You can't win the race if you fall at the first hurdle!
PP
In your 34hrs sim time I would bet you were specifically training. Just flying
normally from a to b
Now if you were to do the same sim exercise in a real aircraft I suspect you would be much more tired than in the sim.
TT is flying and not sim time. If they wanted to know your total sim time they would ask for it. They don't so one can only draw the conclusion that they are not interested in it.
Clouding your total hours by adding in sim time risks being binned if they feel you are in some way trying to deceive them. Your risk though. I'll say it again, your 604 hours is not enhanced by adding in 34 hours in a little sim (I'm assuming it's not a full motion sim? and even if it was I still don't think it enhances your flying time ) and is not going to make the difference between interview/ no interview. Claiming more hours than you actually have may however make the decision to interview or not much easier for them.......................especially if they ask for a specific number of hours which you feel you have but they do not.
Just shows how easy it can be to filter CVs from what seems like an un-manageable pile. The whole game is about first impressions and minimising the risk of being binned. Don't give them a reason on a plate, no matter how strongly you feel about it, because it only matters how they feel about it. You can't win the race if you fall at the first hurdle!
PP
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PP
yes your post definately makes sense. I have changed it on my cv now. Thanks for the tip !
Btw you wouldn't mention sim time at all even when it's not added on your tt ?
Have now:
tt
me
se
ifr
I have skipped the pic time since it's so little - 176 hrs...
I thought of putting that sim time in again but now leave it out of the total time... (it's btw only dash8/sa226 simtime)
Thanks
FF.
yes your post definately makes sense. I have changed it on my cv now. Thanks for the tip !
Btw you wouldn't mention sim time at all even when it's not added on your tt ?
Have now:
tt
me
se
ifr
I have skipped the pic time since it's so little - 176 hrs...
I thought of putting that sim time in again but now leave it out of the total time... (it's btw only dash8/sa226 simtime)
Thanks
FF.
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Hey FF
Good idea to remove sim time out of your TT figure. It's quite a no no for employers. Employers do however have an interest in your PIC time. That is a relevent number. At entry level positions there is often a PIC minimum requirement for any number of reasons.
Good luck.
Good idea to remove sim time out of your TT figure. It's quite a no no for employers. Employers do however have an interest in your PIC time. That is a relevent number. At entry level positions there is often a PIC minimum requirement for any number of reasons.
Good luck.
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Foo
For what it's worth I would advise adding your P1 time in. I think that is more important. It shows them when you have been in command of an aircraft and that does make a difference.
The only time I would tell them that I had sim time is if it is going to impress them in some way. I said in a previous post about perhaps keeping current on a jet sim after something like a JOC course, which I know is expensive and not probably economical for the average Wannabe. If you have a few hundred hours in a jet sim and are still a low hours pilot then that might help. They would certainly be interested to hear about it, even if only to find out how the hell you got it all! You never know, that might make them call you for interview, a bit far fetched, but the only possible reason I can think of for adding sim time on a cv.
Sorry if it comes across as a bit of a 'slap' down, it's not meant to be, but put yourself in their shoes; They fly big aeroplanes two crew and let's face it, they really don't care about 50hrs in an FNPT2, no matter how impressive you may think it makes your cv look. It's a bit like the total hours thing. I've always (since having more hours and worked for airlines!) said that you are still a low hours pilot when you have 1000hrs TT, now that makes pretty depressing reading when you have 200TT I know. But it is reality and something I never knew when I had 250hrs (thinking 1000TT was the Holy Grail). Certainly you are better off with 1000TT and well on the way and probably getting your CV read when others are not, but fact is you are still considered 'low hours'.
So put your sim time down if you want, but don't add it into the flying total for the reasons I have pointed out, but think about it from their point of view.
Good luck to all.
PP
ps edited to add that I was typing at the same time as 604guy!
For what it's worth I would advise adding your P1 time in. I think that is more important. It shows them when you have been in command of an aircraft and that does make a difference.
The only time I would tell them that I had sim time is if it is going to impress them in some way. I said in a previous post about perhaps keeping current on a jet sim after something like a JOC course, which I know is expensive and not probably economical for the average Wannabe. If you have a few hundred hours in a jet sim and are still a low hours pilot then that might help. They would certainly be interested to hear about it, even if only to find out how the hell you got it all! You never know, that might make them call you for interview, a bit far fetched, but the only possible reason I can think of for adding sim time on a cv.
Sorry if it comes across as a bit of a 'slap' down, it's not meant to be, but put yourself in their shoes; They fly big aeroplanes two crew and let's face it, they really don't care about 50hrs in an FNPT2, no matter how impressive you may think it makes your cv look. It's a bit like the total hours thing. I've always (since having more hours and worked for airlines!) said that you are still a low hours pilot when you have 1000hrs TT, now that makes pretty depressing reading when you have 200TT I know. But it is reality and something I never knew when I had 250hrs (thinking 1000TT was the Holy Grail). Certainly you are better off with 1000TT and well on the way and probably getting your CV read when others are not, but fact is you are still considered 'low hours'.
So put your sim time down if you want, but don't add it into the flying total for the reasons I have pointed out, but think about it from their point of view.
Good luck to all.
PP
ps edited to add that I was typing at the same time as 604guy!
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Right. We all seem to be singing from different song sheets here.
The original poster is based in the UK (or at least his profile says he is). It also says he is a frozen ATPL holder with PA34 as his current type.
So I am making assumptions, but, I guess he (or she?) is applying to UK airlines and is a 'low hours' candidate with no two crew time or time in anything that an airline fly.
So, IMHO and with some considerable experience of applying to UK airlines( ) I stand by what I have said. No UK airline that I have ever applied to has been interested whatsoever in any time that I have in simulators, be they a cardboard box with an office chair and an old Morris Marina steering wheel in it or the latest piece of whizzery installed down at GECAT in Gatwick!
Maximus, you have put sim time on your CV, told them that it is not flying time but added it into your TT. Fine. I personally think there is no need to do that, but hey, if it makes you feel good then I don't have a problem with that. Are you of the opinion that your 'new' total of 250hrs got you the job when your 200 flying hours alone would not have? I doubt it, so then there was no need to do it, but again, just glad to hear you got the job.
sony. If someone has 12,000hrs TT I really think the issue of adding sim time to the total becomes a little irrelevant, or at least it does in the UK.
So lets get back to the issue (if I am correct in my assumptions) and that is whether a low hours pilot in the UK should add it into his/ her TT. I think 30hrs in said 'cardboard box' does no favours when it comes to handing out interviews, but as I have said before, if you add it in thinking it is going to help and the employer doesn't see it that way then you may just be giving them a reason to bin your cv. If you write it on and add it in then they will just take it off to get your real TT..........................IMHO.
PP
The original poster is based in the UK (or at least his profile says he is). It also says he is a frozen ATPL holder with PA34 as his current type.
So I am making assumptions, but, I guess he (or she?) is applying to UK airlines and is a 'low hours' candidate with no two crew time or time in anything that an airline fly.
So, IMHO and with some considerable experience of applying to UK airlines(
) I stand by what I have said. No UK airline that I have ever applied to has been interested whatsoever in any time that I have in simulators, be they a cardboard box with an office chair and an old Morris Marina steering wheel in it or the latest piece of whizzery installed down at GECAT in Gatwick!Maximus, you have put sim time on your CV, told them that it is not flying time but added it into your TT. Fine. I personally think there is no need to do that, but hey, if it makes you feel good then I don't have a problem with that.
Are you of the opinion that your 'new' total of 250hrs got you the job when your 200 flying hours alone would not have? I doubt it, so then there was no need to do it, but again, just glad to hear you got the job.sony. If someone has 12,000hrs TT I really think the issue of adding sim time to the total becomes a little irrelevant, or at least it does in the UK.
So lets get back to the issue (if I am correct in my assumptions) and that is whether a low hours pilot in the UK should add it into his/ her TT. I think 30hrs in said 'cardboard box' does no favours when it comes to handing out interviews, but as I have said before, if you add it in thinking it is going to help and the employer doesn't see it that way then you may just be giving them a reason to bin your cv. If you write it on and add it in then they will just take it off to get your real TT..........................IMHO.
PP
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Once again I am wading in here in support of the advise that PP is offering. As someone that does review CV's and does have a voice in what gets binned and what doesn't then I can offer the benefit of that experience.
A CV from an individual that is new to this industry that has sim time included in their TT figure is very likely to get tossed. Legalities of what can be counted and what can't is not the issue. At this stage of the game it's all about perception. Employers get many, many applications and decisions are made in an effort to weed things to managable numbers. My opinion is that you run the risk of getting tossed for sim time included in a TT. Think about it, at this stage of the game you are talking about a notable percentage of your TT.
I am offering the perception from this side of the pond with no expectation that things are viewed the sameway in the UK. However, as we do get occasional applications from the UK I feel justified in responding.
Regardless of how you finally decide to proceed I certainly wish you all the best in securing that all important first job up in the pointy end.
A CV from an individual that is new to this industry that has sim time included in their TT figure is very likely to get tossed. Legalities of what can be counted and what can't is not the issue. At this stage of the game it's all about perception. Employers get many, many applications and decisions are made in an effort to weed things to managable numbers. My opinion is that you run the risk of getting tossed for sim time included in a TT. Think about it, at this stage of the game you are talking about a notable percentage of your TT.
I am offering the perception from this side of the pond with no expectation that things are viewed the sameway in the UK. However, as we do get occasional applications from the UK I feel justified in responding.
Regardless of how you finally decide to proceed I certainly wish you all the best in securing that all important first job up in the pointy end.
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For the final time, as I think I've made my point by now,
Maximus, I have never thought it unacceptable and if someone is going to do it, the method you chose is IMHO the best and most honest way to do it.
My point is I don't think it needs doing and chosing any other method of putting it in, other than clearly stating it is sim time risks your cv not being in the correct pile. For low hours guys in the current environment your cv and cover letter must be as close to perfect as you can get them, the competition is so stiff that leaving any area on the page that isn't 100% risk free just hands a simple excuse to bin yours and move on to the next. I remain open minded but so far I have not been convinced by the argument put to include sim time in the TT column.
Good luck to you all though.
PP
Maximus, I have never thought it unacceptable and if someone is going to do it, the method you chose is IMHO the best and most honest way to do it.
My point is I don't think it needs doing and chosing any other method of putting it in, other than clearly stating it is sim time risks your cv not being in the correct pile. For low hours guys in the current environment your cv and cover letter must be as close to perfect as you can get them, the competition is so stiff that leaving any area on the page that isn't 100% risk free just hands a simple excuse to bin yours and move on to the next. I remain open minded but so far I have not been convinced by the argument put to include sim time in the TT column.
Good luck to you all though.
PP
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Agreed that everything must be top notch to get a look in for low timers at the moment. What I see/hear at the moment, I would also add that unless they have a contact in the company to refer said perfect CV to the recruiter, their hopes would be very slim. It really is all about who you know.
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Now Maximus, you've got me back again!
That is pure speculation! I know plenty who have got into airlines who have very open recruitment policies, such as my own company where it has nothing to do with who you know. Which airlines do you believe this to be the case with and how many people do you know that have got in purely because of who they know?
This is important on a forum such as this. So many Wannabes read these pages and gather info and make judgements based on what they read. They deserve accurate information even though it is a 'rumour' network. I think the rumour side is fine when it comes to hearing who might be hiring but idle speculation without fact is not fair on them. Sure, who you know helps and networking is something every Wannabe should be active in, but
is a little far from the truth I think.
I am not spoiling for a fight, just trying to keep things in perspective, because I remember just what it was like having 250hrs and no job.
I mentor a lot of guys who read these pages (unofficially, when they have contacted me by PM, and free of charge of course) and offer advice 'from the inside' and encouragement about getting through the tough times. These sort of comments do nothing to help. They know it's tough, but low hours guys ARE being hired, albeit in small numbers, and without 'knowing' anybody.
Right, that's it, I'm shutting up now!
PP
That is pure speculation! I know plenty who have got into airlines who have very open recruitment policies, such as my own company where it has nothing to do with who you know. Which airlines do you believe this to be the case with and how many people do you know that have got in purely because of who they know?
This is important on a forum such as this. So many Wannabes read these pages and gather info and make judgements based on what they read. They deserve accurate information even though it is a 'rumour' network. I think the rumour side is fine when it comes to hearing who might be hiring but idle speculation without fact is not fair on them. Sure, who you know helps and networking is something every Wannabe should be active in, but
It really is all about who you know.
I am not spoiling for a fight, just trying to keep things in perspective, because I remember just what it was like having 250hrs and no job.
I mentor a lot of guys who read these pages (unofficially, when they have contacted me by PM, and free of charge of course) and offer advice 'from the inside' and encouragement about getting through the tough times. These sort of comments do nothing to help. They know it's tough, but low hours guys ARE being hired, albeit in small numbers, and without 'knowing' anybody.
Right, that's it, I'm shutting up now!
PP