Masters Degrees, could they a help?
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Masters Degrees, could they a help?
I am currently studying business at a University in Bristol and my tutor has just told me i have the opportunity to attempt a masters degree in business! With the industry in the state it is would it be a good idea to take on the masters and then look for sponsorships or privately fund my license in a years time, when the industry has picked up a little bit and more jobs are avalible.
The only other question i have is, would a masters help to attain sponsorship from ctc, BA or aer lingus, or any other flight sponsorship schemes.
I definitely want to fly but just wondered if a masters degree would help in any way.
Any advice would be greatly welcomed,
Thanks,
A
The only other question i have is, would a masters help to attain sponsorship from ctc, BA or aer lingus, or any other flight sponsorship schemes.
I definitely want to fly but just wondered if a masters degree would help in any way.
Any advice would be greatly welcomed,
Thanks,
A
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Hi Cloud Surfer,
I chose a masters to wait out this lul, but my decision was based on the opportunity cost it utilised. At the time, 9/11 had just occured and I my sponsored course was cancelled with a slim possibility of being restored later.
I've almost finished now, and my main aim was to gain a qualification that would give me an edge when it came to possible flying management roles - further down track.
In my research I found the degree was quite adequate to give the prospective airline employer / sponsor the indication you had what it takes in terms of intelligence, dedication and personal skills. A masters was not necessary and, opposite to other industries, wouldn't entitle you to a higher initial salary.
Also, depending on your financial and personal circumstances, the time spent doing your masters now could be better utilised training for that all important licence (sponsorship or not). The industry is cylical and the up swing will present jobs, so completing the fATPL now would hypothetically be the best time.
Later on you could do a part time masters if that is still a passion.
Just my opinion - but it's your choice.
Good Luck.
I chose a masters to wait out this lul, but my decision was based on the opportunity cost it utilised. At the time, 9/11 had just occured and I my sponsored course was cancelled with a slim possibility of being restored later.
I've almost finished now, and my main aim was to gain a qualification that would give me an edge when it came to possible flying management roles - further down track.
In my research I found the degree was quite adequate to give the prospective airline employer / sponsor the indication you had what it takes in terms of intelligence, dedication and personal skills. A masters was not necessary and, opposite to other industries, wouldn't entitle you to a higher initial salary.
Also, depending on your financial and personal circumstances, the time spent doing your masters now could be better utilised training for that all important licence (sponsorship or not). The industry is cylical and the up swing will present jobs, so completing the fATPL now would hypothetically be the best time.
Later on you could do a part time masters if that is still a passion.
Just my opinion - but it's your choice.
Good Luck.
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I did an MBA recently and it won't be of much value to me as a pilot, but if I ever get binned for medical reasons etc. I stand more chance if I'm, say, 40 and need to find another job.
It might make you more credible in a non-aviation environment.
It might make you more credible in a non-aviation environment.
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If you are looking at trying to get sponsorship if and when it comes up I strongly suggest you DO NOT do the Masters.
I did one because it was offered to me for free and at the same time I was applying left right and centre for sponsorships. My first sponsorship interview was with BA towards the end of the MSc and my studying for an MSc didn't go down at all well. I made it clear that I would ditch the MSc if offered a place, but they wanted to see a direct connection between starting the MSc and becoming a pilot.
I have had similar difficulty in sponsorship interviews again since then when trying to explain away the MSc in a non-aviation subject.
If you are really 100% committed to becoming a pilot then you need to go and find a job in an aviation related company instead of doing the MSc. You also need to be able to say that you were in the ATC, UAS and so on from an early age. Without these proofs of your undying commitment, you have got virtually no chance. Think about it. You competition HAS been flying since the age of 14 through the ATC and the UAS, HAS done a degree in an aviation subject and now IS going to work in an aviation related job.
Good luck!
I did one because it was offered to me for free and at the same time I was applying left right and centre for sponsorships. My first sponsorship interview was with BA towards the end of the MSc and my studying for an MSc didn't go down at all well. I made it clear that I would ditch the MSc if offered a place, but they wanted to see a direct connection between starting the MSc and becoming a pilot.
I have had similar difficulty in sponsorship interviews again since then when trying to explain away the MSc in a non-aviation subject.
If you are really 100% committed to becoming a pilot then you need to go and find a job in an aviation related company instead of doing the MSc. You also need to be able to say that you were in the ATC, UAS and so on from an early age. Without these proofs of your undying commitment, you have got virtually no chance. Think about it. You competition HAS been flying since the age of 14 through the ATC and the UAS, HAS done a degree in an aviation subject and now IS going to work in an aviation related job.
Good luck!
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Perhaps it was since you said that you would ditch the masters that it did not go down well, rather than in the doing of the subject, hence displaying a lack of commitment/direction to a course undertaken. It could well be another thing that can be used to help you stand out from the crowd, however I would be more inclined to select it for the extend it would help in your backup career than how much it would help you in flying if you are going for a non-aviation related one.
Therefore it will be quite easy to explain as being there to aid the backup career (as a prudent, calculating applicant), or in the case of a business MSc provide BA etc with that more-managerial person than anyone else can offer. Equally an aviation management one could be offered to outside employers as being more than aviation, and helping you to beomce a better manager - harder but still possible to explain.
Don't sniff at it if you have the opportunity, especially at the moment when ATPL training is hardly the best idea and may not be for a while.
Therefore it will be quite easy to explain as being there to aid the backup career (as a prudent, calculating applicant), or in the case of a business MSc provide BA etc with that more-managerial person than anyone else can offer. Equally an aviation management one could be offered to outside employers as being more than aviation, and helping you to beomce a better manager - harder but still possible to explain.
Don't sniff at it if you have the opportunity, especially at the moment when ATPL training is hardly the best idea and may not be for a while.
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No, I'm afraid not Lucifer.
I had an extended telephone conversation with the (at the time) head of HR who interviewed with me and he explained in detail why I was rejected. He was very clear about my choice to do the MSc not having enough to do with my burning desire to become a pilot despite the fact that in the interview I explained that the MSc would make me a more business/management oriented pilot and that it would also allow me to earn more money in order to work towards my licenses myself if I didn't get selected for training with BA. His opinion was that I could earn good enough money from my first degree alone in order to start saving towards my ATPL and so one of my biggest reasons for doing the MSc didn't hold water. He was, in hindsight, quite correct. As far as my willingness to ditch the MSc half way through is concerned, he and a current training captain with BA confirmed that my willingness to ditch the MSc was in my favour. They said that people who apply to BA for sponsorship without being willing to give up their current studies/job in order to accept an offer would not be accepted. Surely this makes sense to you?
I had an extended telephone conversation with the (at the time) head of HR who interviewed with me and he explained in detail why I was rejected. He was very clear about my choice to do the MSc not having enough to do with my burning desire to become a pilot despite the fact that in the interview I explained that the MSc would make me a more business/management oriented pilot and that it would also allow me to earn more money in order to work towards my licenses myself if I didn't get selected for training with BA. His opinion was that I could earn good enough money from my first degree alone in order to start saving towards my ATPL and so one of my biggest reasons for doing the MSc didn't hold water. He was, in hindsight, quite correct. As far as my willingness to ditch the MSc half way through is concerned, he and a current training captain with BA confirmed that my willingness to ditch the MSc was in my favour. They said that people who apply to BA for sponsorship without being willing to give up their current studies/job in order to accept an offer would not be accepted. Surely this makes sense to you?
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In the current market environment the comment you were given makes no sense whatsoever - not your fault but times have changed. Though you do not reveal how long ago your interview took place, it may be the case that when times were rosier, without having taken an earlier opportunity to apply, and by embarking on a Masters interviewers did not detect as much commitment as other candidates, however I would not apply your situation to the current environment as it is a totally different ball game now.
1) The opinion that you (Hoping) were given is inappropriate and wrong in the current job market, where first degree graduates not only are competing extremely hard for limited jobs that pay more than non-graduate jobs, but even the better salaries are insufficient for covering costs of living in some cities, and certainly do not allow savings once student loans are being repaid.
2) Although many good jobs do not require masters degrees, the fact that more are doing them means that you have to provide them with something above and beyond that which all others offer.
3) In today’s world, a burning desire to become a pilot is not enough: naively following a dream may occasionally work for some, but hedging bets by gaining qualifications for a potential second career while looking for a first job, to cover eventualities such as loss of medical or in the worst case redundancy from the profession show not only a calculated, rational mind, but someone who is more mature and more of an asset than the competition.
It is not an indication of a lack of will to fly if a person has gained greater qualifications, shows a secondary skill that could equip them to earn a good wage in all eventualities, or maintains higher qualifications to gain greater earning power to save for the licences in the first place.
Look at it this way: in terms of the sponsorship world, at least any part of it that survives in the future, ever more people are going to be more highly qualified since they have been waiting for the opportunity since 2001. With the same skills experiences and the choice between someone with a Masters, other experiences etc, and one with a first degree, it may well be the clincher. Indeed it may be so congested that someone without a degree may not get a look-in, and we follow a quasi-US route of requiring a degree.
To go the route of not depending on being sponsored, earning power is significantly greater to fund training, and it further distinguishes someone from the masses: consider how many people will be ATPL exam qualified and looking for the same job when more recruiting begins. Additionally it is a release from potentially having to pursue a hour-building route by instructing when this path is not only congested with many others doing the same, but may also be insufficient to repay debts nor lead to anything further for a while: as noted elsewhere SEP hours are not everything.
Individuals will always disagree with you, however if there is a clear path that is being followed, there should be no doubt about motivations in any person who is simply gaining qualifications to hedge all bets. Willingness to ditch commitments while in a worthy name may suggest to some people that any undertaking is a fad, with not the commitment to see it through.
Flying is rarely going to be a stable career path at the start, and retirement requirements may compel people to find other work post-airline. Consider all options and do not dismiss any lightly. Look at the state of the airlines now: paying for training now seems foolish considering the lack of opportunities, and what would you miss by doing a Masters? A couple of months headway to a flying job at the most, nothing at least.
1) The opinion that you (Hoping) were given is inappropriate and wrong in the current job market, where first degree graduates not only are competing extremely hard for limited jobs that pay more than non-graduate jobs, but even the better salaries are insufficient for covering costs of living in some cities, and certainly do not allow savings once student loans are being repaid.
2) Although many good jobs do not require masters degrees, the fact that more are doing them means that you have to provide them with something above and beyond that which all others offer.
3) In today’s world, a burning desire to become a pilot is not enough: naively following a dream may occasionally work for some, but hedging bets by gaining qualifications for a potential second career while looking for a first job, to cover eventualities such as loss of medical or in the worst case redundancy from the profession show not only a calculated, rational mind, but someone who is more mature and more of an asset than the competition.
It is not an indication of a lack of will to fly if a person has gained greater qualifications, shows a secondary skill that could equip them to earn a good wage in all eventualities, or maintains higher qualifications to gain greater earning power to save for the licences in the first place.
Look at it this way: in terms of the sponsorship world, at least any part of it that survives in the future, ever more people are going to be more highly qualified since they have been waiting for the opportunity since 2001. With the same skills experiences and the choice between someone with a Masters, other experiences etc, and one with a first degree, it may well be the clincher. Indeed it may be so congested that someone without a degree may not get a look-in, and we follow a quasi-US route of requiring a degree.
To go the route of not depending on being sponsored, earning power is significantly greater to fund training, and it further distinguishes someone from the masses: consider how many people will be ATPL exam qualified and looking for the same job when more recruiting begins. Additionally it is a release from potentially having to pursue a hour-building route by instructing when this path is not only congested with many others doing the same, but may also be insufficient to repay debts nor lead to anything further for a while: as noted elsewhere SEP hours are not everything.
Individuals will always disagree with you, however if there is a clear path that is being followed, there should be no doubt about motivations in any person who is simply gaining qualifications to hedge all bets. Willingness to ditch commitments while in a worthy name may suggest to some people that any undertaking is a fad, with not the commitment to see it through.
Flying is rarely going to be a stable career path at the start, and retirement requirements may compel people to find other work post-airline. Consider all options and do not dismiss any lightly. Look at the state of the airlines now: paying for training now seems foolish considering the lack of opportunities, and what would you miss by doing a Masters? A couple of months headway to a flying job at the most, nothing at least.
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Lucifer,
My BA interview was almost precisely 3 years ago and I admit that times were easier back then. Therefore, I can understand your argument that it is now more excusable to do an MSc than it was when I did mine and that my experience with the BA interview no longer fully applies. However, the most recent sponsorship I have applied for was the Britannia sponsorship which was recruited for last autumn. I found that the vast majority of applicants were BSc graduates working in industry and undergraduates studying subjects such as Aeronautical Engineering. Very few applicants had completed Master's Degrees, and even less had completed Master's Degrees in subjects in subjects such as business management etc. All else being equal, who would you choose to sponsor from the following applicants?
Applicant One:
BSc in Physics/History/Mathematics/Psychology
MSc in Business
2 year's work experience in Physics/Business
Applicant Two:
BSc in Aeronautical Engineering
3 years work experience at BAE systems designing aircraft
Sponsorship is extremely difficult to attain. The stiffest of the competition has been flying in the ATC and the UAS for years, they have done degrees in subjects such as Aeronautical Engineering because of their passion for Aircraft and Aviation in general, and they almost always have not done Master's Degrees in Business. I'm not trying to suggest that a person would make an inferior pilot because of an MSc in Business. What I AM saying is that there are other candidates out there who show much more commitment (foolishly or otherwise) to aviation and they are likely to get that elusive sponsorship before somebody spends a year doing an MSc in business.
You (Lucifer) said another thing which strikes me as strange:
“Willingness to ditch commitments while in a worthy name may suggest to some people that any undertaking is a fad, with not the commitment to see it through.”
Consider the following example:
Timmy wants to be a pilot. He starts an MSc in Business because it is not a bad option in the scheme of things but he continues to apply for sponsorship. BA interviews him and during the interview they ask him if he would be willing to give up his MSc studies to start training if they offered him a sponsorship. He says, “no, I would refuse sponsorship unless you can offer it to begin after the end of my MSc because I don’t start things without finishing them”.
Does that sound to you like Timmy is committed to becoming a pilot?! Seriously, the day before my interview with BA I was sitting on the jumpseat having a bit of a trial interview with a Training Captain (who had previously been a regular interviewer for the BA sponsorship scheme) and he asked me if I would be willing to give up my MSc to accept an offer of sponsorship. I said yes and he assured me that this was seen as the obvious and best answer. Common sense, surely?
My advice to you, Cloud Surfer, depends on your situation. I think the MSc could be bad for your chances of getting sponsorship if you don’t already have evidence of your determination to become a pilot. If you do have evidence of your determination to become a pilot (such as class one medical, a few previous applications for sponsorship, flying time in ATC and UAS) then the MSc may not damage your appearance of wanting to become a pilot too much. What is your situation and experience?
My BA interview was almost precisely 3 years ago and I admit that times were easier back then. Therefore, I can understand your argument that it is now more excusable to do an MSc than it was when I did mine and that my experience with the BA interview no longer fully applies. However, the most recent sponsorship I have applied for was the Britannia sponsorship which was recruited for last autumn. I found that the vast majority of applicants were BSc graduates working in industry and undergraduates studying subjects such as Aeronautical Engineering. Very few applicants had completed Master's Degrees, and even less had completed Master's Degrees in subjects in subjects such as business management etc. All else being equal, who would you choose to sponsor from the following applicants?
Applicant One:
BSc in Physics/History/Mathematics/Psychology
MSc in Business
2 year's work experience in Physics/Business
Applicant Two:
BSc in Aeronautical Engineering
3 years work experience at BAE systems designing aircraft
Sponsorship is extremely difficult to attain. The stiffest of the competition has been flying in the ATC and the UAS for years, they have done degrees in subjects such as Aeronautical Engineering because of their passion for Aircraft and Aviation in general, and they almost always have not done Master's Degrees in Business. I'm not trying to suggest that a person would make an inferior pilot because of an MSc in Business. What I AM saying is that there are other candidates out there who show much more commitment (foolishly or otherwise) to aviation and they are likely to get that elusive sponsorship before somebody spends a year doing an MSc in business.
You (Lucifer) said another thing which strikes me as strange:
“Willingness to ditch commitments while in a worthy name may suggest to some people that any undertaking is a fad, with not the commitment to see it through.”
Consider the following example:
Timmy wants to be a pilot. He starts an MSc in Business because it is not a bad option in the scheme of things but he continues to apply for sponsorship. BA interviews him and during the interview they ask him if he would be willing to give up his MSc studies to start training if they offered him a sponsorship. He says, “no, I would refuse sponsorship unless you can offer it to begin after the end of my MSc because I don’t start things without finishing them”.
Does that sound to you like Timmy is committed to becoming a pilot?! Seriously, the day before my interview with BA I was sitting on the jumpseat having a bit of a trial interview with a Training Captain (who had previously been a regular interviewer for the BA sponsorship scheme) and he asked me if I would be willing to give up my MSc to accept an offer of sponsorship. I said yes and he assured me that this was seen as the obvious and best answer. Common sense, surely?
My advice to you, Cloud Surfer, depends on your situation. I think the MSc could be bad for your chances of getting sponsorship if you don’t already have evidence of your determination to become a pilot. If you do have evidence of your determination to become a pilot (such as class one medical, a few previous applications for sponsorship, flying time in ATC and UAS) then the MSc may not damage your appearance of wanting to become a pilot too much. What is your situation and experience?
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Thanks
Hoping, Lucifer, and all who take the time to read my wonderful thrilling posts!
Thanks for all the advice on the subject of masters. Hoping, i just wanted to fill you in on the details of my flying experience. I wasn't allowed in the ATC because i was in the CCF at college and ended up being head of corps, therefore couldn't do ATC aswell. University air squadron turned me down because i gave away i had always dreamt of being an airline pilot so they refused to help me out with my training, unless i was seriously considering becoming a military pilot.
I have however gained 46 hours towards my PPL privately and will do the groundschool for it in the summer! I did this to show some dedication towarsds the industry and to try to help my chances of sponsorship. I have also attempted the BA sponsorship and the Aer Lingus sponsorship when i was 18-19 having come straight out of college and was not accepted.
If i did a masters i would most likely attempt one in Aviation Management or an aviation subject as this is the career i want to follow. when the industry is like it is now, why not? I understand that you (Hoping) feel they are unnecessary and can go against you,, but i don't understand as it is demonstrating a will to go that little bit further and to excel in a chosen subject. I am going to attempt to get sponsorship over the next six months and while i am waiting i may as well be doing something productive with my time!! It is either that or get a job as a handler in an airport etc..
All your points are valid and whatever happens i will become a cival aviation pilot somehow, i'm just not sure when and how, yet!!
Anyway, back to study, finals in two weeks!
Thanks for your advice and any more would be very warmly welcomed,,
Best Regards
Surfer
Thanks for all the advice on the subject of masters. Hoping, i just wanted to fill you in on the details of my flying experience. I wasn't allowed in the ATC because i was in the CCF at college and ended up being head of corps, therefore couldn't do ATC aswell. University air squadron turned me down because i gave away i had always dreamt of being an airline pilot so they refused to help me out with my training, unless i was seriously considering becoming a military pilot.
I have however gained 46 hours towards my PPL privately and will do the groundschool for it in the summer! I did this to show some dedication towarsds the industry and to try to help my chances of sponsorship. I have also attempted the BA sponsorship and the Aer Lingus sponsorship when i was 18-19 having come straight out of college and was not accepted.
If i did a masters i would most likely attempt one in Aviation Management or an aviation subject as this is the career i want to follow. when the industry is like it is now, why not? I understand that you (Hoping) feel they are unnecessary and can go against you,, but i don't understand as it is demonstrating a will to go that little bit further and to excel in a chosen subject. I am going to attempt to get sponsorship over the next six months and while i am waiting i may as well be doing something productive with my time!! It is either that or get a job as a handler in an airport etc..
All your points are valid and whatever happens i will become a cival aviation pilot somehow, i'm just not sure when and how, yet!!
Anyway, back to study, finals in two weeks!
Thanks for your advice and any more would be very warmly welcomed,,
Best Regards
Surfer
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Hello all,
Just to offer my tuppence worth, I think that BA do not have a clear and definate policy on this one, and it depends very much on the opinion of the interviewer on the day. I was accepted on the BA cadet scheme, whilst just coming to the end of an MSc in a non-aviation related subject. I was questionned about my motivation for a flying career and how this was demonstrated by the MSc, but I obviously said the right things.
My belief is that BA want people who are motivated and can demonstrate this, regardless of whether this motivation lies in an aviation environment or not. BA cadets come from a broad background, and I estimate well over half of these backgrounds are non-aviation related. They are far more interested in the qualities of the person more than anything else.
That said, it's all pretty irrelevent now in terms of the BA sponsorship scheme, as I have it from a reliable source that it is unlikely to be ever run again in its previous format.
Ta very much...
Mary
Just to offer my tuppence worth, I think that BA do not have a clear and definate policy on this one, and it depends very much on the opinion of the interviewer on the day. I was accepted on the BA cadet scheme, whilst just coming to the end of an MSc in a non-aviation related subject. I was questionned about my motivation for a flying career and how this was demonstrated by the MSc, but I obviously said the right things.
My belief is that BA want people who are motivated and can demonstrate this, regardless of whether this motivation lies in an aviation environment or not. BA cadets come from a broad background, and I estimate well over half of these backgrounds are non-aviation related. They are far more interested in the qualities of the person more than anything else.
That said, it's all pretty irrelevent now in terms of the BA sponsorship scheme, as I have it from a reliable source that it is unlikely to be ever run again in its previous format.
Ta very much...
Mary
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It may be that the explanations you give in your sponsorship interviews for the route you have taken are more important that fitting perfectly within a narrowly defined path towards aviation. Especially now, with the present lull in sponsorships, spending the time getting a higher qualification will not be wasted. The benefit i see from academic qualifications over work experience is that it is easier to quantify excellent performance in a Masters than during your first couple of years at work. If you decide to do your MSc, and do really well in it then I believe it will help your chances as you can show then your grades as proof of your performance. Coming up with verifiable examples from work experience is harder, although it is important to have some of this as an MSc is a very individual effort and all interviewers like to see you have good team work experience as well. Hoping may have had a negative experience associated with his MSc in an interview but it should still be possible to convince recruiters of your motivation if you really think of some good examples before hand.
In my case, I managed to get a sponsorship around the time Hoping mentioned, while finishing off an MSc course. The only negative I can see from doing it was the extra time it delayed me in getting into the aviation world, but it sure has come in handy in getting a good job now that there has been a downturn. I think in the present climate there are no real drawbacks, as you are able to get ahead in one career, while at the same time open to apply for sponsorships and have a nice addition to your CV if you have to wait till things pick up. i would make it clear in an interview where your priorities lie and that you would give it up for that aviation job, but maybe mention you would like to come back and finish it off a few years down the road so you come across as someone who sees things through to the end.
In my case, I managed to get a sponsorship around the time Hoping mentioned, while finishing off an MSc course. The only negative I can see from doing it was the extra time it delayed me in getting into the aviation world, but it sure has come in handy in getting a good job now that there has been a downturn. I think in the present climate there are no real drawbacks, as you are able to get ahead in one career, while at the same time open to apply for sponsorships and have a nice addition to your CV if you have to wait till things pick up. i would make it clear in an interview where your priorities lie and that you would give it up for that aviation job, but maybe mention you would like to come back and finish it off a few years down the road so you come across as someone who sees things through to the end.
