Why is 200 hrs better than 1500 for a jet job?
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Why is 200 hrs better than 1500 for a jet job?
I'm an instructor with over 1500 hrs F ATPL etc etc....
Why is it I keep hearing of sub 300 hr people getting jet jobs when I can't even get an interview?
It's not just me either, I have a great many friends who are experienced instructors and in the same boat. I've had lots of theories but none that seem to hold water. An answer from a recruiter would be very welcome....................
Where did we go wrong?
Why is it I keep hearing of sub 300 hr people getting jet jobs when I can't even get an interview?
It's not just me either, I have a great many friends who are experienced instructors and in the same boat. I've had lots of theories but none that seem to hold water. An answer from a recruiter would be very welcome....................
Where did we go wrong?
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I don’t know if this is an answer directly to your question, but I had an interesting conversation at the weekend with a chap who is better placed than almost anyone to answer your question.
We were discussing why it is that airlines are shy of the qualified but inexperienced recruit as opposed to sponsored cadet.
His answer seemed entirely logical. If an airline recruits someone from another airline, they come with an employment history. There is risk of getting it wrong during selection (which often is a highly subjective sim check and interview), but this is mitigated by the applicants known background.
A sponsored cadet undergoes a thorough selection, but also at least 18 months of training, where the airline gets an excellent look at the individual before committing.
However, an inexperienced but qualified pilot comes with little in the way of known history; either training or employment history. This represents risk to the airline.
The only way round this for airlines is either to avoid selecting pilots from this category, or to take them from the CTC ATP Scheme. He explained how CTC take the risk, and the airline gets a good look at any individual before committing to them. Seems excellent from the airline point of view; I guess CTC must be pretty confident in their selection process.
Now I know this argument applies to newly qualified fATPLs as opposed to someone like yourself, but newly qualified fATPLs generally do not get jet airline jobs straight away; a few did in the recruiting boom of 2000/2001 and the odd one always does. The majority just dream of such a job and some buy one from Ryanair.
I’m guessing that, given a choice between an ex FI and someone with an ATPL but ‘more relevant’ experience, the airline would be tempted to pass on the FI. However, many before you have moved onto airline jobs, so don’t give up; hiring is difficult for everyone right now.
We were discussing why it is that airlines are shy of the qualified but inexperienced recruit as opposed to sponsored cadet.
His answer seemed entirely logical. If an airline recruits someone from another airline, they come with an employment history. There is risk of getting it wrong during selection (which often is a highly subjective sim check and interview), but this is mitigated by the applicants known background.
A sponsored cadet undergoes a thorough selection, but also at least 18 months of training, where the airline gets an excellent look at the individual before committing.
However, an inexperienced but qualified pilot comes with little in the way of known history; either training or employment history. This represents risk to the airline.
The only way round this for airlines is either to avoid selecting pilots from this category, or to take them from the CTC ATP Scheme. He explained how CTC take the risk, and the airline gets a good look at any individual before committing to them. Seems excellent from the airline point of view; I guess CTC must be pretty confident in their selection process.
Now I know this argument applies to newly qualified fATPLs as opposed to someone like yourself, but newly qualified fATPLs generally do not get jet airline jobs straight away; a few did in the recruiting boom of 2000/2001 and the odd one always does. The majority just dream of such a job and some buy one from Ryanair.
I’m guessing that, given a choice between an ex FI and someone with an ATPL but ‘more relevant’ experience, the airline would be tempted to pass on the FI. However, many before you have moved onto airline jobs, so don’t give up; hiring is difficult for everyone right now.
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Thanks fibod.
I understand the reasoning, but companies like easyJet seem to have the risk covered with their advanced handling course and TRSS. Surely the risk is entirely with the applicant? If I wash out, then it's only I who lose money?
Actually I've just had a mate get a job at Manchester on the 737.
Straight from SEP, good on 'im!
I understand the reasoning, but companies like easyJet seem to have the risk covered with their advanced handling course and TRSS. Surely the risk is entirely with the applicant? If I wash out, then it's only I who lose money?
Actually I've just had a mate get a job at Manchester on the 737.
Straight from SEP, good on 'im!
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Well heres my theory for what its worth, with perhaps some evidence.
I think in recent times airlines such as Easyjet and DHL have been recruiting low hours pilots to provide a broader cross section of experience. The reason being that an applicant with 1500 - 2000 hours is likely to be looking for a command after about a years employment whereas a low hours applicant will still need to accumulate hours to this end. I think this promotes stability in the company as present FO's are unlikely to be stepped upon by new recruits when command opportunities arise. Organisations such as Easy and DHL both want captains to be resourced internally presumably because they have a greater understanding of the how the company works. I dont know but I guess even a direct entry captain still requires subsequent familiarisation training to comply with SOP's which costs money. In many companies FO's are considered to be 2nd Officers until they have unfrozen their ATPL's hence they earn a lot less providing another saving.
Other airlines such as Flybe and Channel Express specify minimum hours requirements making them a better choice for a 1500 hour instructor. Unfortunately they are not recruiting.
It seems a crazy world where experience works against you but alas this is the world we live in.
I'm sure once flights to Baghdad commence there will be more jobs for us all.
cheers
MJR
I think in recent times airlines such as Easyjet and DHL have been recruiting low hours pilots to provide a broader cross section of experience. The reason being that an applicant with 1500 - 2000 hours is likely to be looking for a command after about a years employment whereas a low hours applicant will still need to accumulate hours to this end. I think this promotes stability in the company as present FO's are unlikely to be stepped upon by new recruits when command opportunities arise. Organisations such as Easy and DHL both want captains to be resourced internally presumably because they have a greater understanding of the how the company works. I dont know but I guess even a direct entry captain still requires subsequent familiarisation training to comply with SOP's which costs money. In many companies FO's are considered to be 2nd Officers until they have unfrozen their ATPL's hence they earn a lot less providing another saving.
Other airlines such as Flybe and Channel Express specify minimum hours requirements making them a better choice for a 1500 hour instructor. Unfortunately they are not recruiting.
It seems a crazy world where experience works against you but alas this is the world we live in.
I'm sure once flights to Baghdad commence there will be more jobs for us all.
cheers
MJR
And of course never lose sight of the fact that its all rubbish.
One airline wants 200hr guys another won't touch them. Some like ex-Mil types, others hardly ever take any. Some airlines want only people from certain schools, others only take experienced turboprop pilots. Some airlines sponsor cadets whilst others don't.
There is little logic in it. You can argue things either way all day long. In the end it comes down as often as not to the personal opinions of a handful of influential people in the airline.
By far the more equitable system is found in the US where there is a pretty much universal and strict progression ladder. You work G/A, you get a turbprop job, you get a jet job, you get a jet job with a Major.
It pretty much all works on hours and past experience and everyone knows where they stand. The JAA system is far more byzantine.
All part of lifes rich tapestry I guess.
WWW
One airline wants 200hr guys another won't touch them. Some like ex-Mil types, others hardly ever take any. Some airlines want only people from certain schools, others only take experienced turboprop pilots. Some airlines sponsor cadets whilst others don't.
There is little logic in it. You can argue things either way all day long. In the end it comes down as often as not to the personal opinions of a handful of influential people in the airline.
By far the more equitable system is found in the US where there is a pretty much universal and strict progression ladder. You work G/A, you get a turbprop job, you get a jet job, you get a jet job with a Major.
It pretty much all works on hours and past experience and everyone knows where they stand. The JAA system is far more byzantine.
All part of lifes rich tapestry I guess.
WWW
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Luck of the draw then eh?
I guess I'll have to keep on drawing......
Still, apart from the micky taking pay, instructing is actually quite a nice job for now.
Not wanting so sound bitter, who me, but a genuine question.
Are all flying school owners the same?
i.e.
Expecting you to handle aircraft for free as well as instructing etc
but only paying sub minimum wages?
Forgot to say, thanks for the replies guys, feel a little less self concious now.
I thought it was just me..............
I guess I'll have to keep on drawing......
Still, apart from the micky taking pay, instructing is actually quite a nice job for now.
Not wanting so sound bitter, who me, but a genuine question.
Are all flying school owners the same?
i.e.
Expecting you to handle aircraft for free as well as instructing etc
but only paying sub minimum wages?
Forgot to say, thanks for the replies guys, feel a little less self concious now.
I thought it was just me..............
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Airlines like British regional (now gone) etc used to favour FI's and I feel the FI rating is a bit under rated. Many are saying 1500 hrs blatting the circuit isn't worth much, and an FI can be riddled with bad habits! ??
For one, trying to teach in the circuit is actually quite hard, whilst listening out & looking out etc Sometimes it would be easier just to get on with it yourself but that wouldn't be instructing.
Secondly, the flying, although fun has to quite disciplined. Bad habits DO get picked up by students so they are simply not done. They would be picked up by the examiner at the test anyway.
I have 4 years worth of instructing and 2300 hrs with the same employer. I sadly can't stop the hours accumulating as I have to work and the summer is here now, ie 100 hrs a month. Having applied for the last two years, some one said the airlines may look on me as having no drive or ambition??
Sometimes you cant win.
For one, trying to teach in the circuit is actually quite hard, whilst listening out & looking out etc Sometimes it would be easier just to get on with it yourself but that wouldn't be instructing.
Secondly, the flying, although fun has to quite disciplined. Bad habits DO get picked up by students so they are simply not done. They would be picked up by the examiner at the test anyway.
I have 4 years worth of instructing and 2300 hrs with the same employer. I sadly can't stop the hours accumulating as I have to work and the summer is here now, ie 100 hrs a month. Having applied for the last two years, some one said the airlines may look on me as having no drive or ambition??
Sometimes you cant win.
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Well said aardvark.
We spend most of our time doing it exactly like the book says. How can we pick up bad habits when the students watch our every move. They pick up on and question everything we do.
They can be like the worst autopilot on the planet too, they can give the impression that they are very capable then without warning lose the plot big time.
Does that not teach us to monitor everything around us?
What is an FO's job anyway?
Also how can a 200hr FO have the same hands on flying ability as an FI? I'm not saying that they are bad but thay can't have experience they haven't had time to accumulate and Autopilots do drop out!
My friends in the industry who fly with these people say the same..............................
We spend most of our time doing it exactly like the book says. How can we pick up bad habits when the students watch our every move. They pick up on and question everything we do.
They can be like the worst autopilot on the planet too, they can give the impression that they are very capable then without warning lose the plot big time.
Does that not teach us to monitor everything around us?
What is an FO's job anyway?
Also how can a 200hr FO have the same hands on flying ability as an FI? I'm not saying that they are bad but thay can't have experience they haven't had time to accumulate and Autopilots do drop out!
My friends in the industry who fly with these people say the same..............................
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MJR
Not quite what the thread is about, but you're wrong about flybe not recruiting. They have just very recently, and have also approached a certain well-known FTO in the Thames valley for details on a number of other low hours potential recruits.
Not quite what the thread is about, but you're wrong about flybe not recruiting. They have just very recently, and have also approached a certain well-known FTO in the Thames valley for details on a number of other low hours potential recruits.
MJR - not at all.
WWW
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MJR, I think WWW was just saying "who the hell knows what formula is the best way". We all try different ways and sometimes it is all just down to luck. I'd say you are both quite right!
HP, try go easy on the FI promotion. There are many guys out there who equally work very hard in freight, air taxi, and chater who all deserve a chance. I have been previously slated and told to "join the queue and wait my turn", whilst another said "it's not really a queue, you have to do what you can, what ever it is, to get a job", even if it does mean selling your grandma! ???
This sort of backs up the theory of TIME AND PLACE
A view from a recruitment chap would be nice though
HP, try go easy on the FI promotion. There are many guys out there who equally work very hard in freight, air taxi, and chater who all deserve a chance. I have been previously slated and told to "join the queue and wait my turn", whilst another said "it's not really a queue, you have to do what you can, what ever it is, to get a job", even if it does mean selling your grandma! ???
This sort of backs up the theory of TIME AND PLACE
A view from a recruitment chap would be nice though
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WWW has it, as usual, about right. Recruiting falls into several categories.
- Need a few Captains quickly - promote from inside or poach from other airlines on the QT
- Need a lot of Captains quickly - advertise in Flight for type rated pilots, if you don't get them recruit similar from outside the JAA on a licence validation
- Need a few First Officers quickly - pick up the top few CVs on the pile
- Need a lot of First Officers quickly - bung an advert in Flight with a few relatively arbritary filters put in.
- Have planned ahead and, taking the demographics of the airline into account, recognised the need for a steady stream of high quality First Officers - start a sponsorship program, preferably at no cost to the airline.
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Hi Alex.
Just want to say I wouldn't have made it this far without the help you and your staff at Bristol GS gave me with the exams.
Sincere thanks........................
Just want to say I wouldn't have made it this far without the help you and your staff at Bristol GS gave me with the exams.
Sincere thanks........................
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Good interesting points so far to which I'd like to add my perspective as an airline pilot with relatively low experience (got taken on with 200hrs).
One of the things I found to be the hardest starting out on jets after training on piston engine light aircraft is descent management, i.e. you're at FL390, they want you at FL250 by such and such and then at FL150 and then you want to intercept the glide on a continuous descent so as to avoid levelling out and burning extra fuel but you also don't want to be to high because then you might be fast and long on the threshold etc. etc... Anyway, this is an example among others of aspects of airline flying which you do not really cover until you get into the airlines and no matter how many hours you spent drilling holes in the sky at 3000ft in Florida, you won't be able to practice it until you're sitting in that right hand seat.
I won't criticise the Americans' criteria for hiring because I don't know much about them beyond what's been said on this thread, but I resent what some say about how in Europe we hire pilots with low hours and it is supposedly unsafe. The aspect of airline flying I described in the previous paragraph is one among many that proove you can't learn everything flying light aircraft anyway. Happy landings to everyone,
G26
One of the things I found to be the hardest starting out on jets after training on piston engine light aircraft is descent management, i.e. you're at FL390, they want you at FL250 by such and such and then at FL150 and then you want to intercept the glide on a continuous descent so as to avoid levelling out and burning extra fuel but you also don't want to be to high because then you might be fast and long on the threshold etc. etc... Anyway, this is an example among others of aspects of airline flying which you do not really cover until you get into the airlines and no matter how many hours you spent drilling holes in the sky at 3000ft in Florida, you won't be able to practice it until you're sitting in that right hand seat.
I won't criticise the Americans' criteria for hiring because I don't know much about them beyond what's been said on this thread, but I resent what some say about how in Europe we hire pilots with low hours and it is supposedly unsafe. The aspect of airline flying I described in the previous paragraph is one among many that proove you can't learn everything flying light aircraft anyway. Happy landings to everyone,
G26
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Well here's what I have learned while flying "light aircraft", quite apart from teaching people to "drill holes in the sky at 3000ft" without killing themselves or getting in the way of Professional aviators in jets........................
How to use Boeing and Airbus AFDS and FMS and properly manage just about every other system on a TP or jet. Exactly how to carry out descent problems like the one you mentioned. The problems with foreign controllers, airspace, failures, diverts, problem passengers, etc etc etc.........
I have about 5-6 close friends who are serving airline pilots with most major companies. Some of them Captains. I fly regularly in "light aircraft" with all of them. Every time we speak I learn something new. One person who flies at the school is a retired BA senior training Captain on the 747, the nicest man you'll ever meet. These are the people who teach you when you get the jet job. I've had the benefit of their experience for the last 4 years including every cockup they've made and incident they've had since day one.
Being a flying instructor means you get to meet these people and if you have any sense, learn from them. You have access to just about every CBT, training tape and POH around. You have at your disposal experienced people who will happily answer any question you can come up with.
I am an professional Flying Instructor, I don't drill holes in the sky and I've never been to Florida.
I leave that to low houred people who are looking to build hours and fast track to a "REAL JOB"
Don't forget, everybody starts by doing a PPL, and it's Instructors like myself who have to do the hard work and take you from not knowing what an aileron is, to going solo.
Do you remember your first landing?
I bet the instructor does.................................................
Sorry got a bit carried away there.
Happy drilling...........................
How to use Boeing and Airbus AFDS and FMS and properly manage just about every other system on a TP or jet. Exactly how to carry out descent problems like the one you mentioned. The problems with foreign controllers, airspace, failures, diverts, problem passengers, etc etc etc.........
I have about 5-6 close friends who are serving airline pilots with most major companies. Some of them Captains. I fly regularly in "light aircraft" with all of them. Every time we speak I learn something new. One person who flies at the school is a retired BA senior training Captain on the 747, the nicest man you'll ever meet. These are the people who teach you when you get the jet job. I've had the benefit of their experience for the last 4 years including every cockup they've made and incident they've had since day one.
Being a flying instructor means you get to meet these people and if you have any sense, learn from them. You have access to just about every CBT, training tape and POH around. You have at your disposal experienced people who will happily answer any question you can come up with.
I am an professional Flying Instructor, I don't drill holes in the sky and I've never been to Florida.
I leave that to low houred people who are looking to build hours and fast track to a "REAL JOB"
Don't forget, everybody starts by doing a PPL, and it's Instructors like myself who have to do the hard work and take you from not knowing what an aileron is, to going solo.
Do you remember your first landing?
I bet the instructor does.................................................
Sorry got a bit carried away there.
Happy drilling...........................
glider26, I take your point. Lots of stuff about flying a Boeing simply can't be learnt until you've got one strapped you your backside.
However. I would disagree about descent planning. Show me a 1,000hr instructor and I will show you someone who can finesse a 6 minute glide approach/PFL to the n'th degree. The art of energy managment is essentially the same whether you are teaching 20hr Bloggs how to conduct a PFL from 4,000ft or a new FO a terminal airfield approach from Fl200.
People like Hyper who make the very most of their instructing time are wise indeed and will benefit from their efforts. The same attitude when applied to every lesson from Ex1 Effects of Controls onwards is what is needed to achieve ones ambitions these days.
WWW
However. I would disagree about descent planning. Show me a 1,000hr instructor and I will show you someone who can finesse a 6 minute glide approach/PFL to the n'th degree. The art of energy managment is essentially the same whether you are teaching 20hr Bloggs how to conduct a PFL from 4,000ft or a new FO a terminal airfield approach from Fl200.
People like Hyper who make the very most of their instructing time are wise indeed and will benefit from their efforts. The same attitude when applied to every lesson from Ex1 Effects of Controls onwards is what is needed to achieve ones ambitions these days.
WWW
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Hyper Piper and WWW,
I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone and there's no doubt in my mind someone with over 1500 hrs instructing with contacts in the industry knows a hell of a lot more than a 200 hrs recruit. I apologise if it came accross that I thought hours spent in light aircraft were worthless because I really don't.
It just occured to me during my initial sectors on a jet as a 200 hr recruit that descent management was brand new to me. The initial post on this thread reads something like "why do airlines hire 200 hr guys instead of guys with loads more experience?". I just wanted to make the point that to me (not speaking for anyone else) if I'd carried on flying piston aircraft up to 1500 hrs doing the stuff I was doing, I would still have found on day one of flying jets that I still had loads to learn (such as descent mgt). So some airlines (as WWW pointed out they all have different criteria) may consider that 1500 hr guys (or gals) with no jet experience also have a lot to learn and hence if faced on a given day with a 200 hr guy and a 1500 hr guy and having to pick one of the two, they may still go for the 200 hr guy because of other factors as mentioned earlier on the thread (age, skill, general likeability, hell I don't know). That's all.
Anyway, no disrespect to flying instructors was intended and I apologise for some of the language which may have been inappropriate (the drilling holes bit!) and I hope what I said half makes sense.
Glider
I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone and there's no doubt in my mind someone with over 1500 hrs instructing with contacts in the industry knows a hell of a lot more than a 200 hrs recruit. I apologise if it came accross that I thought hours spent in light aircraft were worthless because I really don't.
It just occured to me during my initial sectors on a jet as a 200 hr recruit that descent management was brand new to me. The initial post on this thread reads something like "why do airlines hire 200 hr guys instead of guys with loads more experience?". I just wanted to make the point that to me (not speaking for anyone else) if I'd carried on flying piston aircraft up to 1500 hrs doing the stuff I was doing, I would still have found on day one of flying jets that I still had loads to learn (such as descent mgt). So some airlines (as WWW pointed out they all have different criteria) may consider that 1500 hr guys (or gals) with no jet experience also have a lot to learn and hence if faced on a given day with a 200 hr guy and a 1500 hr guy and having to pick one of the two, they may still go for the 200 hr guy because of other factors as mentioned earlier on the thread (age, skill, general likeability, hell I don't know). That's all.
Anyway, no disrespect to flying instructors was intended and I apologise for some of the language which may have been inappropriate (the drilling holes bit!) and I hope what I said half makes sense.
Glider
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Actually I'm with WWW on this thread now.
I guess it's just who's on top of the heap of CV's when the job req's come in gets the job.
Maybe also down to how the guy doing the recruiting got his first job?
Sad how it has to come down to chance after all this work.........
No offence taken by the way glider, unless you'd instructed yourself you wouldn't know what it's really like.
I guess it's just who's on top of the heap of CV's when the job req's come in gets the job.
Maybe also down to how the guy doing the recruiting got his first job?
Sad how it has to come down to chance after all this work.........
No offence taken by the way glider, unless you'd instructed yourself you wouldn't know what it's really like.