Ryanair recruitment: a step too far

[Wave Drag Jones]

Ryanair have now decided to take on non-type rated pilots via type rating organisations (they kind of did this before but not officially), but before all you wannabes go straight to their web page be warned.

Ryan still want 350 euro to even interview you
Ryan still charge 23.500 euro for the rating
BUT now ryan are charging for LINE TRAINING at a cost of 16.800 euro!!!!

How is this actually allowed?!?!

[Artificial Horizon]

This kind of policy is discusting, it is making flying a very elitist industry once again where only those with lots of dosh will get employed.

Just the other day I was at a flying school where a guy who hadn't even finished his I/R had a call from Ryanair who offered him a place on the type rating course as soon as he had finished. He had no interview, what he did have though was the money to fund his own type rating, once he had told them this he was in. Now the problem is I know lots of quality guys who have hours and experience ranging from 200 - 2000 hours who can't get a look in because they can't afford to pay an airline for a job. Surely this is a recruitment policy that leads the wealthy to get the jobs and not actually the best person for it!!

[Splat]

AH,

Any idea how he told them that he was loaded?

S

[scroggs]

Are you suggesting that you now pay over Euro40k for type rating and line training? Or is it that, with a type rating from another provider, you pay 16,800 instead of 23,500?

Ryanair's grubby, usurious methods are certainly distasteful, but sadly not illegal. There will always be those who are willing to front up the cash. I hope the pay and potentially over 900 hours/year are worth it!

Scroggs

[Wave Drag Jones]

To confirm: one of Ryanair's approved schools will interview you for E350, if successful will charge E23.500 for the type rating.

Then your training begins with Ryanair who generously provide your line training for a bargain basement price of E16.800.

As you say, from fATPL to trained FO - a snip at E40k.

ps all travel and accommodation costs payable by student

[Butter side-up]

I agree with the sentiments of the posts on this topic.

Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that money does give you choices. However, NONE of the people that I know at Ryanair are happy - so is it really worth all the money? What is the point of being fleeced for your type rating then flogged when you are on line?

I suggest everyone sits tight and wait for an upturn - so that airlines get back to paying for type ratings.

Good luck to anyone who disagrees and pays their money to join Ryanair - but they have certainly been warned. How smart will they feel when other people get jobs over the next 12 months without having to pay a penny? I think schemes like this are just a test of people's bottle! O'Leary is just a very aggressive player - the more people who cave in to his bullying the worse he gets. The only way to deal with bullies, in my experience, is to find their weak point and take them on. They normally do not come back!

The more people who stand firm the bigger his problem - he has aircraft arriving and needs to crew them. Make him sweat - and then negotiate with him. I am sure he would soon be busting blood vessels if he had a couple of NGs sitting around which he could not crew!

Finally, why is it that the least pleasant employer in the industry charges the most money? I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.

Good luck to everyone with the job hunting.

[scroggs]

If this is true (and I haven't checked it out yet), we're talking of spending potentially £90,000+ to earn the privilege of earning £1200 per month plus allowances. There are (even now) investment opportunities which give a better return and don't involve selling your soul to the Irish Divil! Or working at all, for that matter. Quite why anyone would take Ryanair up on this 'offer' defeats me. If any of you are considering doing this, would you like to tell us why - and which mental hospital you've just left??

Scroggs
[email protected]

[lovefly1968]

if u do not like ryanair, tell me why do you apply! do not apply and you will not have to pay. Nobody asks you to pay. like malgus!
But I can say that ryanair is in progression, they do not ask the 50 euros to send your resume. BTW I don t remember if it was 50 euros or 50 british pounds.

So if Ryanair read this I would like to say: "CONGRATULATION! for you hard working"

I would like to give an idea to Ryanair for them to make more money from us: do like auctions!

Ok guys,the auction of today is a B737 t/r and a job with Ryanair, the auction starts at 5'000 euros.who offer me a better price?
ah ah ah!!! funny but wait, it s coming!

[buttline]

Scroggs,

I must be a masochist but I given this some thought so I feel obliged to run the gauntlet (can I have another username after this please!) but, seriously, I am thinking about this scheme. In my 30s, self-funded from a previous career so I'm lucky and grateful to be in a position where such a scheme wouldn't hurt me financially (although of course I'd rather keep the cash as I earned it the hard way).

IMHO after being in the wannabee environment for 2 years now, the situation from where I'm sitting (with around 300hrs) is pretty much this:

Instructor Route: Pay 5k for the course, still very difficult to get a job. Takes at least 1-2 years to get 1000 hours. Pay is around 12k pa. Some friends of mine who are PPL FIs have taken home as little as 200 quid a month during the winter months.

Turbo Prop route: I'm not very well researched here but I get the strong impression that everyone who has been instructing for the last 2 years and has 1000hrs + has a much better chance than those of us with low hours. I estimate pay to be around the 20-22k mark. I would jump at an opportunity here if I thought one would be available in the near future.

Low-Cost Jet Operators route: Let's remember that Southwest is the pionier here (Herb Kellehar, their CEO, practically trained MOL and Stelios). Southwest has always expected it's pilots to have their own TRs on the 737, even though they would likely come with around 2000 hrs TT. It has only recently permitted interviews without one - everyone used to have to get the TR before even interviewing. (However, 737 TR in the USA is only about 6000 GBP - I don't know why its so much cheaper but I guess everything is!).

Here's the sums from the nuthouse based a whole lot of estimates admittedly.....

Traditional route:

Instructor course - 5k
Instructor salary Y1 - 12k
Instructor salary Y2 - 12k
Turbo prop sal Y3 - 22k


Ryan/EJ TRSS route:

TR course - 24-30k
Salary Y1 - 30k
Salary Y2 - 30k
Salary Y3 - 30k

The estimated difference in earnings + the cost of the instructor course is more than the cost of the TR (although probably similar after income tax), providing the employment offer is solid and you perform well. I.e. it pays for itself over three years plus there are seniority and pension benefits that I'm not knowledgable enough to try and quantify.

Having said all this, I don't think it's a good option for everyone. If I was in my 20s and already in debt, I wouldn't dream of taking the risk. I'd bide my time and go down the instructor route and have fun, learn about life, people skills...

However, for us slightly older guys who probably have more money saved up and are looking to catch up for time spent in previous careers, if it means not letting more time pass by, it may be worth it. Looking further into the future, I've seen companies like Emirates and Cathay use the term "experience commensurate with age" in their criteria - another concern for those of us new guys over 30.

[Andy_R]

The above reads as though you have set your heart on a jet job, at the expense of forfeiting any chance in a turboprop. That surely shuts a lot of doors, and after 2 years I would have thought you had investigated fully the opportunities that exist in the entire spectrum of aviation, i.e. instructing, air taxi, turboprop as well as the unpaid hours you could be doing to build hours such as glider towing etc.

However if you can afford to prostitute yourself I suppose that is your perogative. However bear in mind that the sums you quote mean that after paying in the region of £90k it will take years just to get to break even. No "career" is worth that:

Ryan/EJ TRSS route:

TR course - 24-30k
Salary Y1 - 30k
Salary Y2 - 30k
Salary Y3 - 30k

So after Y1 you will have recouped your TR course (ignoring income tax).
After Y3 you will have recouped your training costs from ab-initio to fATPL (taking into account income tax deductions from salary).

So it is not until Year 4 that you would start to make your first pennies from aviation.

Would you really consider working in any other industry that effectively means you don't earn a penny for 3 years minimum, (assuming you were earning while getting your licence in the first place)?

Sorry, these sums do not add up. I take it you either have a huge cash reserve and no family or mortgage to consider?

[SierraHotel Pilot]

I sent an email to one of the TRTO's listed to enquire about the scheme; but to my amazment they are already fully booked with candidates!!! Are there really that many loaded fATPL'ers out there? I think the Iraqi air force may need pilots soon (no type req) to join the 20 min'ters

[plota]

I've contacted all trto listed and noone did mention the fact that ryan will charge for line training. I confirm one is already full for the first intervew round.
Can't we have a confirm of the charged line training from someone inside? If this is not true it may be a good deal.
Do they pay you during line training?

[benhurr]

Scroggs,

the reason I am considering this is because it is there. If I do it, then I will have spent £80K on my training, so I will have spent the same as those on the Oxford Course but have a type rating and line training as well.

I am also considering an FI rating, because I have the chance of some part time work as an instructor, and it is something I would love to do.

I am also considering buying a share in an aeroplane to get some decent twin hours in.

I am also doing the FAA Groundschool to make me eligible for N-reg aircraft.

I guess you could say I am considering absolutely anything at the moment, but who isn't? I think it is important to keep on adding to my CV , to try and get slightly ahead of all of the other people with approximately 300 hours.

And the £250 on the sim session to check suitability for the type rating course seems a good place to start.

[RVR800]

Its becomiong like the Sates where one can pay for first officer hours - the next step

Therer are too many of us

Its economics..

[Splat]

Furthermore, the TRTO I spoke to made it clear that Ryanair wanted people to do a 737-200 rating, wiithout a promise of a job.

Can't say that I found a -200 rating that apealing if the Ryanair thing did not come good.

S

[Hufty]

I find it hard to be emotive with all this because as a consultant I would probably be giving them a congratulatory slap on the back for being in a strong enough position to get people to pay for a job! However, as a Wannabee it really me ***** me off to know that just when you think you've spent all the money you need to, somebody else sticks their hand out for more! It is like being asked for money by all the homeless people in the London underground - the first few times you're sympathetic, but after a while patience wears thin.

I know it is just supply and demand, but I for one, can't afford to pay any more than I'm planning to, so will just have to line up with everybody else and hope that all the rich souls who go to Ryanair leave a few less people for the rest of us to compete against for jobs at conventional employers.

[lovefly1968]

the ryanair course is overbooked because some guys are so desperate that they will kill their mother to be an airline pilot(poor world!).
I watched some movies on the B737, nothing very exciting. the copilot follows some check lists and does some radio. It doesnt worth to lick the butt of Ryanair for that,better to be a flight instructor or a captain on a smaller plane and to pay nothing. And how long does a Ryanair copilot stay, 3 months? 6 months?

Keep your money, and watch the news to see if our troops do a good job in Iraq!

[Obi Wan Kirk]

It is a lot of money for a job which has a very poor return on investment.
My suggestion would be to join a network marketing company as an independant distributor. Build a business and then buy yourself your own jet and fly when you want, to where you want and with who you want. A few years ago I met a guy that just did that, while I decided to become an airline pilot. Lifestyle wise he definetely made a better choice...

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Are you sure they actually want you to pay up front for the line training? I was told that you are charged for each sector you have flown if you leave the company within a certain time period. The figure i was told was £90 ish per sector, but that could be incorrect. If the above is the case then it would be a little easier to swallow, not much, but why would you want to leave before you had a sack full of hours anyway?

[BroomstickPilot]

The more I read about the doings of Ryanair, the more I become convinced that they must surely be in breach of Irish employment law somewhere along the line.

I suggest that those of you who are based in Eire could do everyone a favour and check with the Irish employment authorities to see just which employment laws Ryan have breached.