Ryanair recruitment: a step too far
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Much as I dislike the kind of market opportunism epitomised by Ryanair, there is nothing illegal about it. For those who'd like a campaign against it, don't waste your time!
You aren't entitled to a job, or even to an interview. Nor are you entitled to expect an employer to pay to finish the training you require to become a useful employee. The fact that many do (when they are recruiting) reflects well on those companies, and probably on their operating standards, but there is no requirement to do so.
As for those complaining about the money involved, you have no case. I can't (and never will be able to) afford a Ferrari - or even a s/h Ka! I can't afford to take a holiday with my children, and I can't afford to send them to school outside the crumbling UK state system. Not fair? Bollocks! That's life. Get over it.
Scroggs
You aren't entitled to a job, or even to an interview. Nor are you entitled to expect an employer to pay to finish the training you require to become a useful employee. The fact that many do (when they are recruiting) reflects well on those companies, and probably on their operating standards, but there is no requirement to do so.
As for those complaining about the money involved, you have no case. I can't (and never will be able to) afford a Ferrari - or even a s/h Ka! I can't afford to take a holiday with my children, and I can't afford to send them to school outside the crumbling UK state system. Not fair? Bollocks! That's life. Get over it.
Scroggs
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Let's face it - this topic has been done to death a million times before. There will always be some people who are willing to pay vast quantities of cash for type ratings. If so, good luck to them. If you are one of the people who find Ryanair's actions despicable (like myself), then don't go work for them. Are you really going to be missing out on that much? - they clearly do not value their employees anyway.
I'm not willing to pay for a job, but I'm not going to waste time worrying because other people are. Let these rich mad people pay the 40000 Euros and go work for Ryanair. It's less competition for us for the good jobs!
TB
I'm not willing to pay for a job, but I'm not going to waste time worrying because other people are. Let these rich mad people pay the 40000 Euros and go work for Ryanair. It's less competition for us for the good jobs!
TB
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Guys n Girls -
I find it appalling that Ryanair wish to charge people for interviews and type ratings, it strikes me as oportunism at it worst.
There are some good schemes, like CTC, and without further knowledge I would be reluctant to comment further on Ryanair. Ive never payed for a type rating and would recommend people stay clear of putting money up front unless its a true 'part sponsorship scheme.'
Too many companies offer type ratings without the chance of a proper selection process leading to employment. I would say dont do it unless there is a firm job offer attached to the deal!
I find it appalling that Ryanair wish to charge people for interviews and type ratings, it strikes me as oportunism at it worst.
There are some good schemes, like CTC, and without further knowledge I would be reluctant to comment further on Ryanair. Ive never payed for a type rating and would recommend people stay clear of putting money up front unless its a true 'part sponsorship scheme.'
Too many companies offer type ratings without the chance of a proper selection process leading to employment. I would say dont do it unless there is a firm job offer attached to the deal!
Hawker@FL400
"Too many companies offer type ratings"
I'm curious to know where you get this info from. Feel free to send me a PM if you like as my enquiries suggest that there are not that many out there contrary to popular belief.
S
"Too many companies offer type ratings"
I'm curious to know where you get this info from. Feel free to send me a PM if you like as my enquiries suggest that there are not that many out there contrary to popular belief.
S
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Splat re Type Ratings -
Tried to send PM but system failed. In essense a number of companies or TRTO organisations over the years have 'offered' type ratings, see past issues of 'Flight' for examples. Ive been in aviation 18yrs and that was my source of info when unemployed, (plus some personal contacts).
A rating without line experience isnt a huge amount of good, most companies like to do their own training and a self funded rating is a huge risk! I took my advice when unemployed 9yrs ago from the 'unemployed pilots job centre' at the gatwick jobcentre. The advice then was dont do a rating, I didnt, and Ive never regretted that. If they still exist a visit to their gatwick office might be a good idea, at least the advice would be free free!
I hope this is of some help
Tried to send PM but system failed. In essense a number of companies or TRTO organisations over the years have 'offered' type ratings, see past issues of 'Flight' for examples. Ive been in aviation 18yrs and that was my source of info when unemployed, (plus some personal contacts).
A rating without line experience isnt a huge amount of good, most companies like to do their own training and a self funded rating is a huge risk! I took my advice when unemployed 9yrs ago from the 'unemployed pilots job centre' at the gatwick jobcentre. The advice then was dont do a rating, I didnt, and Ive never regretted that. If they still exist a visit to their gatwick office might be a good idea, at least the advice would be free free!
I hope this is of some help
Hawker@FL400
Thank you for that. I think I know what you mean.
Without wishing to re open the debate about the merits or not of self sponsorship, I'd like to suggest that things may have changed in 18 years. Any individual without commercial experience is a risk to the employer, then as now. It's just that some of them have cotten on to the fact that some of us without work are prepared to take on some of that risk by self rating.
Sadly, it's here to stay, just as the MCC, ATP, JAA etc are. The cost of getting into aviation is going up all the time. I can't see it getting any cheaper either.
My 2d's worth.
Splat
Thank you for that. I think I know what you mean.
Without wishing to re open the debate about the merits or not of self sponsorship, I'd like to suggest that things may have changed in 18 years. Any individual without commercial experience is a risk to the employer, then as now. It's just that some of them have cotten on to the fact that some of us without work are prepared to take on some of that risk by self rating.
Sadly, it's here to stay, just as the MCC, ATP, JAA etc are. The cost of getting into aviation is going up all the time. I can't see it getting any cheaper either.
My 2d's worth.
Splat
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Foghorn
Have you applied to the scheme and if so how did you choose which training provider to go through?
My tuppence on this debate: Think of the fare structuring - Ryanair are going for the tourists who want poor quality but for cheap fares, Easyjet are now going for the businessmen who want standard quality for more than ryanair but less than BA. Seems quite a parallel with the hiring process at the moment. Ryanair are going for those with money and can afford to pay for their TR (good luck to them) and easyjet are going for those who have been selected by an esteemed training provider who also supply pilots for many other airlines. Sounds like quantity vs quality!! But I do not bemoan anyone for making their choices in life. Good luck to one and all.
Have you applied to the scheme and if so how did you choose which training provider to go through?
My tuppence on this debate: Think of the fare structuring - Ryanair are going for the tourists who want poor quality but for cheap fares, Easyjet are now going for the businessmen who want standard quality for more than ryanair but less than BA. Seems quite a parallel with the hiring process at the moment. Ryanair are going for those with money and can afford to pay for their TR (good luck to them) and easyjet are going for those who have been selected by an esteemed training provider who also supply pilots for many other airlines. Sounds like quantity vs quality!! But I do not bemoan anyone for making their choices in life. Good luck to one and all.
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mr splatt,we agree with you, but I heared the JAA licenses and JAA pilots are the cream of the crabe. a 200h JAA pilot is ohhhh soooo(say "so" for at least 3 seconds) much better and soooo (5 seconds)much more professional than a old grunchy US captain.
It s why the JAA have integrated the MCC program, to make us more safe!so what s the point to have hours, and experience? I know, that s sound ridiculous, but this will end to an accident one of these days with easy or ryanair and insurance companies will come back in force.It s just a question of time!but do passengers know with what kind of pilot they are flying?brrrrrr!
It s why the JAA have integrated the MCC program, to make us more safe!so what s the point to have hours, and experience? I know, that s sound ridiculous, but this will end to an accident one of these days with easy or ryanair and insurance companies will come back in force.It s just a question of time!but do passengers know with what kind of pilot they are flying?brrrrrr!
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Lovefly 1968 the passengers are flying with fully qualified and Type rated pilots. I haven’t read anywhere that the JAA is soooo ( as you put it) much better than the FAA and the statements you make are not backed up by fact and accident rates are no different to the US system, which by your statement you infer is superior. Anyone with 200 hrs who thinks they are gods gift has a lot to learn, , but I’m sure you probably thought you where hot stuff when you had 200 hours!
As for the type rating debate, I was one of the lucky ones who had their rating paid for, but I was bonded for 3 years. I disagreed with the pay for ratings move, however it has points in its favour. I have noted that the pilots who paid for their rating are on approximately £6000 per annum more than the sponsored ratings pilots so over a 3 year period the rating is more than paid for. At the end of the 3 year period the amount paid by these two groups is broadly similar. Yes you have to find the money in the first place, and that is very difficult. Remember that a license doesn’t mean that the airlines owe you a job, its just a ticket on the ride and the que is long.
If you pay for your type rating and get a fastpass for the que in 3 years you will have 2700 hours jet time, be coming up for command and some serious money. Think carefully, dont bite your nose to spite your face.
As for the type rating debate, I was one of the lucky ones who had their rating paid for, but I was bonded for 3 years. I disagreed with the pay for ratings move, however it has points in its favour. I have noted that the pilots who paid for their rating are on approximately £6000 per annum more than the sponsored ratings pilots so over a 3 year period the rating is more than paid for. At the end of the 3 year period the amount paid by these two groups is broadly similar. Yes you have to find the money in the first place, and that is very difficult. Remember that a license doesn’t mean that the airlines owe you a job, its just a ticket on the ride and the que is long.
If you pay for your type rating and get a fastpass for the que in 3 years you will have 2700 hours jet time, be coming up for command and some serious money. Think carefully, dont bite your nose to spite your face.
I say there boy
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AH64,
No, sadly, I managed to miss the scheme as I was away when it started and it hadn't really dawned on me what they were offering until GETCAT had already been deluged with CVs and closed down applications.
As those who know me will agree, timing is not my strong point...
cheers!
foggy.
No, sadly, I managed to miss the scheme as I was away when it started and it hadn't really dawned on me what they were offering until GETCAT had already been deluged with CVs and closed down applications.
As those who know me will agree, timing is not my strong point...
cheers!
foggy.
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The issue of the reward after landing the job is being largely overlooked here. A £20k rating is a lot of money, but put into context is a good investment. After 6 months on line, a new starter who came straight into Ryanair with 160hrs is going to be taking home £3000 net per month, possibly more. Now that is over double what some airlines pay. That added to a possible command in three years gives me no doubt this is a good investment.
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FP,
You make it sound so simple. £20K, right, lets go get a type rating and a job with ryanair. Not the case.
Its pretty difficult to get into or even be considered by any of the type rating schools that Ryanair uses. The schools will obviously also give priority to their nationals applying.
So therefore, you'll see mainly irish guys at gecat, dutch at cae, swedish at bfsaa, and german at flugschule.
Im not saying there is anything wrong with this, just saying its not as easy as you seem to imply, to get into and onto a type rating course with these schools.
I shouldnt have replied, I've just depressed myself again!
You make it sound so simple. £20K, right, lets go get a type rating and a job with ryanair. Not the case.
Its pretty difficult to get into or even be considered by any of the type rating schools that Ryanair uses. The schools will obviously also give priority to their nationals applying.
So therefore, you'll see mainly irish guys at gecat, dutch at cae, swedish at bfsaa, and german at flugschule.
Im not saying there is anything wrong with this, just saying its not as easy as you seem to imply, to get into and onto a type rating course with these schools.
I shouldnt have replied, I've just depressed myself again!
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Mr batty,
accident rate is lower in the states, much more traffic for the same number of accidents, guess why?.
Insurance companies have demonstrated that a pilot with hour (type rated or not)have less chance to have an accident than a low time guy .But since we have this MCC and this new JAA license, we effectively become some "super safe pilot" and I think we dont have the eyes in front of the holes in europe and we will pay it a lot soon !but the problem is not only here, airlines have tendency to hire the first guy who show his money, whatever he is good or not, motivated or not. Flight test is a mascarade, anyone signing right away a check will get the job.I am disgusted by that!and this is not in the way to increase the security of our aviation world and anyone flying with this company should know with what kind of guys they are flying!
accident rate is lower in the states, much more traffic for the same number of accidents, guess why?.
Insurance companies have demonstrated that a pilot with hour (type rated or not)have less chance to have an accident than a low time guy .But since we have this MCC and this new JAA license, we effectively become some "super safe pilot" and I think we dont have the eyes in front of the holes in europe and we will pay it a lot soon !but the problem is not only here, airlines have tendency to hire the first guy who show his money, whatever he is good or not, motivated or not. Flight test is a mascarade, anyone signing right away a check will get the job.I am disgusted by that!and this is not in the way to increase the security of our aviation world and anyone flying with this company should know with what kind of guys they are flying!
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Lovefly,
Have you listened to yourself? You really are talking complete rubbish, and its also fairly irrelevant to the topic originally being discussed.
Airlines whether within a JAA or FAA state, require a level of proficiency and aptitude from the pilots they are employing. This normally comes hand in hand with the airlines requirement for experience on relevant type. Now we all now that low houred guys and girls in europe have been accepted by some low cost airlines, trained by the airline from day one with no bad habits and flown for usually around six months with a training capt before being allowed anywhere near a normal line capt on a passenger carrying flight.
They may be low houred but are well screened, and well trained before a contract of employment is put anywhere near their sweaty palms. To suggest that all you need is to sign a cheque just shows your ignorance, and the fact that you have not bothered to read everybody elses replies.
Next time, keep to the subject matter, or your better still your uneducated opinions to yourself.
(handbags at dawn ladies!)
Have you listened to yourself? You really are talking complete rubbish, and its also fairly irrelevant to the topic originally being discussed.
Airlines whether within a JAA or FAA state, require a level of proficiency and aptitude from the pilots they are employing. This normally comes hand in hand with the airlines requirement for experience on relevant type. Now we all now that low houred guys and girls in europe have been accepted by some low cost airlines, trained by the airline from day one with no bad habits and flown for usually around six months with a training capt before being allowed anywhere near a normal line capt on a passenger carrying flight.
They may be low houred but are well screened, and well trained before a contract of employment is put anywhere near their sweaty palms. To suggest that all you need is to sign a cheque just shows your ignorance, and the fact that you have not bothered to read everybody elses replies.
Next time, keep to the subject matter, or your better still your uneducated opinions to yourself.
(handbags at dawn ladies!)
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lovefly1968 and MorningGlory ... you're not going to fight over this ! you're both right and wrong ... Lovefly1968, flying a C152 for 3000 or 4000 hours as instructor (like in the USA) doesn't give much experience of flying a jet ... MorningGlory having a CPL IR MCC from a famous college with 200 hours probably never gave the opportunity to fly in severe icing conditions or ... you see you cannot say mine is better ... both work ! but the topic talks about one way based on your bank account, we are not saying that the pilots joining FR via the selfsponsored are not up to the level but they have for sure a healthy bank account ... it is like a money selection ... and I agree with Lovefly1968 'passengers should know it' ...
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The one point I keep missing is the fact that "unprofessional" airlines like BA and KLM etc have been using 200hr guys trained by the same centres and or programs for years... Now they go through FR they should become less safe????
The money part is not the selection criteria it only keeps the number of people applying down. In view of the current availability of candidates only helpfull to the airlines.. not nice but maybe understandable from the airline point of view.
The money part is not the selection criteria it only keeps the number of people applying down. In view of the current availability of candidates only helpfull to the airlines.. not nice but maybe understandable from the airline point of view.
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Some guys(low time pilots) here have really a disfunctionment of their oxygen pressurisation, your brain needs some fresh air!!!.A low time pilot has no the level of a high time pilot or all airlines would hire low time pilot instead and it s not the case. the numbers are here, ask any expert in insurance and they will tell what you do not want hear.
It s not the license or the type rating which make aviation safer but it s the behavior of the pilot. I mean when you have thousand hours of flight time, your brain has the capabilities to answer to much more situations than a low time guy.
a 2000h C152 pilot with an engine fire by exemple will deal the problem much better than a 300h B737 copi and a fresh captain.
the problem I can see actually is that with all these new technologies on board like the airbus , we have the tendency to believe that a pilot just need the minimum training.Computer have replaced the human.well, I don't wish to be the passenger of a 300h pilot , but i would prefer to fly with a 3000h pilot, even if he has 2950h in the C152 and 50 h of B737.This theory is the same on the road, so why do you want try to change a proven fact.If you don't have the 1000h or the 2000h requested by the airlines and insurances companies, go rent a C152, and you will get the job on your Boeing later.Are you too good to fly a small turboprop???.Go work your ass to get your hours, and then you will understand what I mean!
It s not the license or the type rating which make aviation safer but it s the behavior of the pilot. I mean when you have thousand hours of flight time, your brain has the capabilities to answer to much more situations than a low time guy.
a 2000h C152 pilot with an engine fire by exemple will deal the problem much better than a 300h B737 copi and a fresh captain.
the problem I can see actually is that with all these new technologies on board like the airbus , we have the tendency to believe that a pilot just need the minimum training.Computer have replaced the human.well, I don't wish to be the passenger of a 300h pilot , but i would prefer to fly with a 3000h pilot, even if he has 2950h in the C152 and 50 h of B737.This theory is the same on the road, so why do you want try to change a proven fact.If you don't have the 1000h or the 2000h requested by the airlines and insurances companies, go rent a C152, and you will get the job on your Boeing later.Are you too good to fly a small turboprop???.Go work your ass to get your hours, and then you will understand what I mean!
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Lovefly,
It is very frusterating for you that you probably have a lot of hours on a cessna but have no clue about commercial aviation. That is no problem but keep your wishdom to yourself...
Insurers look at incident rates rather than at hours but that is for real airplanes in commercial aviation. On cessna's that might be hours.. thanks for sharing but please post it on one of the PPL forums.
It is very frusterating for you that you probably have a lot of hours on a cessna but have no clue about commercial aviation. That is no problem but keep your wishdom to yourself...
Insurers look at incident rates rather than at hours but that is for real airplanes in commercial aviation. On cessna's that might be hours.. thanks for sharing but please post it on one of the PPL forums.
I think we've read enough Ronchonner rambling for this decade so I am closing the thread.
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