Ryanair recruitment: a step too far
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Does Ryanair make you sign a training bond?
A scheme like this is not sustainable. Ryanair will find, as many other airlines have in the past, that they will have a serious pilot retention problem in the near future. I suspect most of these "rich" recruits will get bored and as they seem to have lots of money they will have no real reason to remain in the company. Will Ryanair be prepared to go back to paying for training? Will their business model allow for it? Time will tell.
Lazlo
A scheme like this is not sustainable. Ryanair will find, as many other airlines have in the past, that they will have a serious pilot retention problem in the near future. I suspect most of these "rich" recruits will get bored and as they seem to have lots of money they will have no real reason to remain in the company. Will Ryanair be prepared to go back to paying for training? Will their business model allow for it? Time will tell.
Lazlo
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Lazlo
The way i was told the scheme was run, ie pay for each sector if you leave before a certain time is effectively bonding you to them. As i see it the Ryanair scheme is similar to the easyJet type rating sponsorship, and assuming you have to pay for line training up front, you would be paying more than the easyJet scheme AND getting less for your money (732 rating). I would suggest they are not going to pay you very much either, i'm not sure but it's just the feeling i get.
Broomstick Pilot
I would suggest checking employment law would be a bit of a waste of time, i would be amazed if that hadn't been checked by Ryanair before they decided to go ahead with the scheme. Also who on earth is going to take them on? You would need to have very deep pockets for that, and after proceeding down that road would have as much chance of getting a job as Saddam Hussain would getting humanitarian of the year!
The way i was told the scheme was run, ie pay for each sector if you leave before a certain time is effectively bonding you to them. As i see it the Ryanair scheme is similar to the easyJet type rating sponsorship, and assuming you have to pay for line training up front, you would be paying more than the easyJet scheme AND getting less for your money (732 rating). I would suggest they are not going to pay you very much either, i'm not sure but it's just the feeling i get.
Broomstick Pilot
I would suggest checking employment law would be a bit of a waste of time, i would be amazed if that hadn't been checked by Ryanair before they decided to go ahead with the scheme. Also who on earth is going to take them on? You would need to have very deep pockets for that, and after proceeding down that road would have as much chance of getting a job as Saddam Hussain would getting humanitarian of the year!
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Lazlo
So if they are going to be bored, these rich recruits that you speak of, why did they join ryanair in the first place?
Jet time? First foot on the ladder? I think the point is that they are working towards unfreezing their ATPL, in the current market conditions, if I had the cash, then I think that really is the only way forward.
So if they are going to be bored, these rich recruits that you speak of, why did they join ryanair in the first place?
Jet time? First foot on the ladder? I think the point is that they are working towards unfreezing their ATPL, in the current market conditions, if I had the cash, then I think that really is the only way forward.
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The Ryan air scheme is straight forward:
€ 350 selection fee
€ 23500 Type Qualification Training for 737 NG
the €16200 is a bankguarantee / bond that you only have to supply for the period that you do the line training and use Ryanair aircraft but are not employed by Ryanair.
Should you fail while line training you get your money of the bond back and should you decide not to take up the offer of employment of Ryanair but go to another airline only then you will lose the money.
Regarding the cost of the Type qualification. This might be relative new in Europe but it has been in use with South West for years.
€ 350 selection fee
€ 23500 Type Qualification Training for 737 NG
the €16200 is a bankguarantee / bond that you only have to supply for the period that you do the line training and use Ryanair aircraft but are not employed by Ryanair.
Should you fail while line training you get your money of the bond back and should you decide not to take up the offer of employment of Ryanair but go to another airline only then you will lose the money.
Regarding the cost of the Type qualification. This might be relative new in Europe but it has been in use with South West for years.
Lovefly:
"I watched some movies on the B737, nothing very exciting. the copilot follows some check lists and does some radio. "
If you think that is all a 737 FO does then I think you need to do a bit more research that just watch a few movies!
Sorry, off topic but felt I had to reply.
"I watched some movies on the B737, nothing very exciting. the copilot follows some check lists and does some radio. "
If you think that is all a 737 FO does then I think you need to do a bit more research that just watch a few movies!
Sorry, off topic but felt I had to reply.
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Jet time? First foot on the ladder? I think the point is that they are working towards unfreezing their ATPL, in the current market conditions, if I had the cash, then I think that really is the only way forward.
Its simply not just a matter of having a JAR frozen ATPL and 'the cash' to do the type rating.
The schools that Ryanair are using are proving very difficult to get any response from let alone into and onto a type rating course.
I've even heard that the Ryanair approved TRTO schools are phoning around UK CPL/IR schools to find out if they can recommend any pilots! Isn't this undermining whats said on the Ryan website, and putting those who are applying through the so called 'only way of applying' ie: website, at the back of an even longer queue.
Basically the schools have been told to screen and select suitable pilots for type rating. The fact is the schools are doing this off their own back and one can only assume that the people that are applying in the conventional manor are wasting their time!
Please correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick!
Last edited by MorningGlory; 21st Mar 2003 at 10:39.
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The TRTO's have links with flight schools to make sure they get the right person from day one. CAE uses the NLS in the Netherlands as they own the place but also having spent 180 hours and 18 months there gives the school a very good reference about somebodies capabilities! SAS uses the SAS academy for the same reason etc
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Ok. But my point is this:
Why on earth are Ryanair even bothering to invite applications from people who have not attended these schools?
Why are the TRTO's saying they will process all valid applications if they know that they will do their best to get their 'own' in first?
This does not seem a fair screening process to me. Why did Ryanair even bother to advertise this on their website? Surely they could have approached the TRTO's and asked for cadets without the need of advertising online, and therefore saved a lot of people with froazen ATPL's a lot of time and effort
Why on earth are Ryanair even bothering to invite applications from people who have not attended these schools?
Why are the TRTO's saying they will process all valid applications if they know that they will do their best to get their 'own' in first?
This does not seem a fair screening process to me. Why did Ryanair even bother to advertise this on their website? Surely they could have approached the TRTO's and asked for cadets without the need of advertising online, and therefore saved a lot of people with froazen ATPL's a lot of time and effort
Last edited by MorningGlory; 21st Mar 2003 at 10:40.
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I flew single engine planes in Eastern Europe, Africa, I worked as flight dispatcher for a year and now as a ramp agent and I will not pay for a type rating !!! I prefer to stay on the ramp and get a salary until a serious airline or air taxi operator offers me a pilot job ... if someone has a good advice for me, it will be very much appreciated ... and I let my seat at the type rating "academy" 
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Well said Scroggs!!! Maybe you could lead a campaign against the purchase of type ratings, line training & anything else any one would like to buy to get one step ahead.
For all the taxis, freight & FI's. How peased orf are we getting with these pull up the ladderers fast tracking and jumping the queue.
As an FI with an un frozen ATPL, 2250 hrs, 4 years of instructing, the same 9k wages and not a sniff in 18 months, my patience is waring thin with my future colleagues!
For all the taxis, freight & FI's. How peased orf are we getting with these pull up the ladderers fast tracking and jumping the queue.
As an FI with an un frozen ATPL, 2250 hrs, 4 years of instructing, the same 9k wages and not a sniff in 18 months, my patience is waring thin with my future colleagues!
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To be honest I am not surprised! Why don't they change their name to Ryanair Flying Club and all pilots now have to pay for the privilege of flying. Charged on block time... of course... and not airborne time! There would be no change in flying practice... fast taxys as well as being high and fast while being vectored to the ILS. 
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Aardvark,
It's not a queue is it? Many of those heading down the T.R. route had to work just as hard as you doing jobs they didn't love to raise the money in the first place...
If you're suggesting that someone shouldn't use all the resources (financial and otherwise) at their disposal out of some alturistic sense of helping others to get along, maybe (as you've obviously got all the piston hours you'll ever need) you'd like to move over and let some young wannabee move into your instructing job to show good faith?
I think your anger and frustration is pointed in the wrong direction. Try directing it at the airlines or at BALPA who don't seem to care too much about the entry-end of the industry...
It's not a queue is it? Many of those heading down the T.R. route had to work just as hard as you doing jobs they didn't love to raise the money in the first place...
If you're suggesting that someone shouldn't use all the resources (financial and otherwise) at their disposal out of some alturistic sense of helping others to get along, maybe (as you've obviously got all the piston hours you'll ever need) you'd like to move over and let some young wannabee move into your instructing job to show good faith?
I think your anger and frustration is pointed in the wrong direction. Try directing it at the airlines or at BALPA who don't seem to care too much about the entry-end of the industry...
Sound point buttline.
Makes you wonder who is more attractive:
200 TT with a 737 TR or someone with 2000 hours FI etc.
If as I suspect the answer is the former, then taking the FI route may start to require a rethink.
Just a thought
S
Makes you wonder who is more attractive:
200 TT with a 737 TR or someone with 2000 hours FI etc.
If as I suspect the answer is the former, then taking the FI route may start to require a rethink.
Just a thought
S
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Like everybody else, I have spent a small fortune (all of my inheritance and then some) on getting my FATPL. I have been out of college for 5 years and since September the 11th have had nothing through the post other than the standard PFO's. I work in an office and get paid £16,000 p/a 'cos I have focussed most of my efforts trying to find a job flying as I am not qualified to do anything else that will earn ok money. I just about get by on this money but could not afford to take a drop. I feel trapped with no way of moving forward now I have spent all this money.
If I could find the money I would probably do this. Hell yes I hate the fact that I am being had over a barrel and that if I could get a job flying an Aztec paying 16 -17 grand I would jump at the chance. But there are very few real chances available to me at this point other than those I make for myself.
Now If I could just find the money ........
If I could find the money I would probably do this. Hell yes I hate the fact that I am being had over a barrel and that if I could get a job flying an Aztec paying 16 -17 grand I would jump at the chance. But there are very few real chances available to me at this point other than those I make for myself.
Now If I could just find the money ........
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FWIW, I'm doing my recurrent training this week, at a training provider near Gatwick.
Went there yesterday and the coffee room was full of people being interviewed for the Ryanair Scheme, apparently they have literally thousands of applications for this and the standard answer to people saying "it's not fair to pay for this" is, "well, you don't have too!!", followed up with "you just won't work for us".
Ryans have seen a market and thay've exploited it, plenty of people have taken the bait and yes they are getting on type and getting jet experience.
I'm not advocating this but I have to say it does seem to be working better than instructing for two years (or longer) in the current environment. Sad but true.
Went there yesterday and the coffee room was full of people being interviewed for the Ryanair Scheme, apparently they have literally thousands of applications for this and the standard answer to people saying "it's not fair to pay for this" is, "well, you don't have too!!", followed up with "you just won't work for us".
Ryans have seen a market and thay've exploited it, plenty of people have taken the bait and yes they are getting on type and getting jet experience.
I'm not advocating this but I have to say it does seem to be working better than instructing for two years (or longer) in the current environment. Sad but true.
I say there boy
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Aardvark,
You say you've survived 4 years on 9 grand a year to get where you are, and you're mad at people who are using self-sponsored type ratings to get jobs because you can't afford one.
I probably can afford a self-sponsored type rating, however I can't for various reasons afford four years on nine grand a year. That would mean a big loss of income for me far and above the cost of a self-sponsored type rating.
Why am I any different to you?
You are using your ability to survive on low instructors wages for a long period of time to "get one step ahead", I am (possibly*) using my ability to afford a Type Rating to get ahead.
No difference IMHO.
In the ideal world we shouldn't have to be paying for Type Ratings
Hell in the ideal world we shouldn't have had to pay for our fATPLs
In an ideal world FIs would be paid a decent wage.
However this is aviation. Hiring is down to pure market forces. There's a massive supply of people at the bottom chasing the few openings that there are, many of whom are willing to put themselves through personal and financial hardships to get a job, or have the access to funds to buy their way as far as is possible.
Getting mad is perfectly understandable if you've been struggling for a long time, however at least think about where these people supposedly jumping ahead of you are coming from. They are just as keen as you to get into that RHS! People can and are getting jobs off the back of self-sponsored type ratings on all types, from obsolescent turbo-props to 737s and busses.
To echo pjdj, it's sad, but true.
cheers!
foggy
* Note I'm thinking about it - I'm not committed yet
You say you've survived 4 years on 9 grand a year to get where you are, and you're mad at people who are using self-sponsored type ratings to get jobs because you can't afford one.
I probably can afford a self-sponsored type rating, however I can't for various reasons afford four years on nine grand a year. That would mean a big loss of income for me far and above the cost of a self-sponsored type rating.
Why am I any different to you?
You are using your ability to survive on low instructors wages for a long period of time to "get one step ahead", I am (possibly*) using my ability to afford a Type Rating to get ahead.
No difference IMHO.
In the ideal world we shouldn't have to be paying for Type Ratings
Hell in the ideal world we shouldn't have had to pay for our fATPLs
In an ideal world FIs would be paid a decent wage.
However this is aviation. Hiring is down to pure market forces. There's a massive supply of people at the bottom chasing the few openings that there are, many of whom are willing to put themselves through personal and financial hardships to get a job, or have the access to funds to buy their way as far as is possible.
Getting mad is perfectly understandable if you've been struggling for a long time, however at least think about where these people supposedly jumping ahead of you are coming from. They are just as keen as you to get into that RHS! People can and are getting jobs off the back of self-sponsored type ratings on all types, from obsolescent turbo-props to 737s and busses.
To echo pjdj, it's sad, but true.
cheers!
foggy
* Note I'm thinking about it - I'm not committed yet
Last edited by foghorn; 28th Mar 2003 at 17:54.
And in the last major recession British Midland were offering 737 type rating courses on their Sims. They hinted that the company would need some FO's and that all people who did the course would be "evaluated" nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
A lot of people desperate for a break signed up and got themselves a nice shiny 737 rating. And how many got hired by British Midland? Hmmm, not many.
There was nothing wrong in this. A type rating course without a job offer prior is a simple case of caveat emptor.
Ryanair have obviously looked back on history. At least they do seem to be hiring the course graduates at a fairly prodigous rate.
WWW
A lot of people desperate for a break signed up and got themselves a nice shiny 737 rating. And how many got hired by British Midland? Hmmm, not many.
There was nothing wrong in this. A type rating course without a job offer prior is a simple case of caveat emptor.
Ryanair have obviously looked back on history. At least they do seem to be hiring the course graduates at a fairly prodigous rate.
WWW
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One of this Ryanair approved training organisations is currently offering a 737-200 type rating course without any clear job offer before you complete training.
The cost is £ 15,000 plus a £ 9,000 bonding for line training.
I think a self-funded 737-800 type rating is a big gamble but a 737-200 course without a job contract is pure madness.
The cost is £ 15,000 plus a £ 9,000 bonding for line training.
I think a self-funded 737-800 type rating is a big gamble but a 737-200 course without a job contract is pure madness.