View Poll Results: What would you prefer to fly
Short Haul (UK, France, Eire etc)
90
30.61%
Medium Haul (Canaries, Cyprus etc)
105
35.71%
Long Haul
99
33.67%
Voters: 294. This poll is closed
Employed by an airline with 250hrs!
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Employed by an airline with 250hrs!
Im currently at uni, so I wont start training for the fATPL until 2005.
Problem is, after investing £40k on a modular course, whats the real chance of getting a job. The airlines will not want you with such low hours, or will they? Brit Regional (as they were known), before 11/09/01, wanted a 1000hrs total time. The larger airlines wanted even more.
I know some airlines take you with low hours, but exactly which airlines? Ive been told "there are some airlines that take low houred pilots." What are the facts. All the facts point towards the airlines wanting lots of hours....
Thank you in advance.
Problem is, after investing £40k on a modular course, whats the real chance of getting a job. The airlines will not want you with such low hours, or will they? Brit Regional (as they were known), before 11/09/01, wanted a 1000hrs total time. The larger airlines wanted even more.
I know some airlines take you with low hours, but exactly which airlines? Ive been told "there are some airlines that take low houred pilots." What are the facts. All the facts point towards the airlines wanting lots of hours....
Thank you in advance.
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Part of the problem is that wannabes' expectations have been distorted by the past few years of exceptional employment opportunities. In no other profession would you even contemplate getting into the 'premier league' immediately after training, and that is now becoming the case again in aviation - even if only temporarily.
Over most of the period since WW2, airline wannabes have had to serve an apprenticeship either in the military or in air-taxi or night freight work, or similar. This apprenticeship taught you enormous amounts about airmanship, safety and all those things that you can't learn either in an ATPL course or in the highly-insulated environment of a modern jet airliner.
I, for one, mourn the loss of that logical and progressive route to an airline post, and feel that the profession is worse off for its passing. I would advise all of you looking for work now to lower your sights a little and get yourself some real experience, in whatever way you can. It will stand you in very good stead in years to come.
Over most of the period since WW2, airline wannabes have had to serve an apprenticeship either in the military or in air-taxi or night freight work, or similar. This apprenticeship taught you enormous amounts about airmanship, safety and all those things that you can't learn either in an ATPL course or in the highly-insulated environment of a modern jet airliner.
I, for one, mourn the loss of that logical and progressive route to an airline post, and feel that the profession is worse off for its passing. I would advise all of you looking for work now to lower your sights a little and get yourself some real experience, in whatever way you can. It will stand you in very good stead in years to come.
Another aspect is that you miss out on a lot of fun by going straight to an airline jet job.
I really am one to mock rose tinted specs but the fact is the couple of years I spent pottering about in light pistons were huge fun. Poorly paid and hard work also.
But YOU ran the flight. You went where YOU wanted to in the way YOU saw fit. Conducting an entire PFL trip in such a was as to beat up your girlfriends house, ferrying some godforsaken heap of an aircraft across the country with nothing more than an old NDB and a bacon sarnie to help you. Being damn scared and having to do some quickk thinking when its just you up there is also an enlightening experience. One realises that secretly, you ain't a patch on Chuck Yeager really.
In some respects operating an airline jet is all about routine, SOP's, minimum fuel burn, combating fatigue, getting on with a team of diverse people for 12hrs at a time and not screwing up.
Sure the money is great, the travel and views can be interesting, just sometimes you hand fly a punchy approach or do a partiuclarly satisfying cloud burst on a wet rainy morning at 6000fpm. Post Sept 11th the ability to have pax onto the flightdeck or to take a leisurely stroll down the back looking for nice girls has gone and - trust me - that seriously detracts from the fun of the day at work.
I said this many many moons ago here on PPRuNe Wannabes - I have met many people who spolit the enjoyment of the lower ladder rungs by the hurry they were in to get to the airlines.
As someone said recently in another forum, the two best jobs are always your last one and your next one. There is some truth in that!
Cheers
WWW
I really am one to mock rose tinted specs but the fact is the couple of years I spent pottering about in light pistons were huge fun. Poorly paid and hard work also.
But YOU ran the flight. You went where YOU wanted to in the way YOU saw fit. Conducting an entire PFL trip in such a was as to beat up your girlfriends house, ferrying some godforsaken heap of an aircraft across the country with nothing more than an old NDB and a bacon sarnie to help you. Being damn scared and having to do some quickk thinking when its just you up there is also an enlightening experience. One realises that secretly, you ain't a patch on Chuck Yeager really.
In some respects operating an airline jet is all about routine, SOP's, minimum fuel burn, combating fatigue, getting on with a team of diverse people for 12hrs at a time and not screwing up.
Sure the money is great, the travel and views can be interesting, just sometimes you hand fly a punchy approach or do a partiuclarly satisfying cloud burst on a wet rainy morning at 6000fpm. Post Sept 11th the ability to have pax onto the flightdeck or to take a leisurely stroll down the back looking for nice girls has gone and - trust me - that seriously detracts from the fun of the day at work.
I said this many many moons ago here on PPRuNe Wannabes - I have met many people who spolit the enjoyment of the lower ladder rungs by the hurry they were in to get to the airlines.
As someone said recently in another forum, the two best jobs are always your last one and your next one. There is some truth in that!
Cheers
WWW
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I made it!
Honestly to say, the chances to get a job with 250hrs are tending against zero. Here in Europe there are so many jobless but highly experienced. Sabena, Swissair some regional carriers, the market is full with pilots. We were a group of 16 in our class. All with no sponsorship or a job guarantee!
4 of them including me got hired. 2 flying Air Berlin B738/4 one flies Lear 45 for Air rescue and myself getting type rated on the RJ85! So there are some jobs for guys like us but you need a huge portion of luck!
4 of them including me got hired. 2 flying Air Berlin B738/4 one flies Lear 45 for Air rescue and myself getting type rated on the RJ85! So there are some jobs for guys like us but you need a huge portion of luck!
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WWW
Agree wholeheartedly. Whats more an apprenticeship turns someone with a fATPL and 250hrs into a "pilot", not just someone who knows how to pass a couple of flight tests. Good for those who want and gain an airline post at the first attempt but dont think they they are any better than those of you who struggle for a year or two.
Agree wholeheartedly. Whats more an apprenticeship turns someone with a fATPL and 250hrs into a "pilot", not just someone who knows how to pass a couple of flight tests. Good for those who want and gain an airline post at the first attempt but dont think they they are any better than those of you who struggle for a year or two.
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WWW,
WELL SAID
Once the initial rush wanes, you will realise it is a job and you will be kicking yourself for not trying other flying jobs. I know its difficult (I know, I started flying during the last recession..) but some of you guys should remove your blinders and not miss the more "obscure" flying job options.
A lateral move is just as good as a move up during the start of your career.
WELL SAID
Once the initial rush wanes, you will realise it is a job and you will be kicking yourself for not trying other flying jobs. I know its difficult (I know, I started flying during the last recession..) but some of you guys should remove your blinders and not miss the more "obscure" flying job options.
A lateral move is just as good as a move up during the start of your career.
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Cityliner,
If, out of your class of 16, only 4 got hired - what made you 4 different?
Right place, right time? Right contacts? Something about your training which positioned you well? Or is it something about the quality of your CV (pre-flying) - e.g. academic results / work/leisure experiences?
Cheers.
If, out of your class of 16, only 4 got hired - what made you 4 different?
Right place, right time? Right contacts? Something about your training which positioned you well? Or is it something about the quality of your CV (pre-flying) - e.g. academic results / work/leisure experiences?
Cheers.
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90% of Airmed's 24th promotion (finished a couple of months ago with 270H Total) is flying for National Carriers on Jets (the CRJ on LH and AU). None of them is German/Austrian, so YES, it is possible, and yes, JAA really does work!
It only depends on your training quality and personal motivation!
It only depends on your training quality and personal motivation!
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I love the idea of flying some 'curious' wings once I qualify and I don't mind the idea of night freight and taxi for a while. I have a tentative connection with a new CJ1 which would be great experience. The thing is, doesn't time in a single crew op. type cause timing trouble unfreezing the fATPL?
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I'm instructing for one of the leading integrated course flight training organisations just now.
I can tell you that there has been a lot of recent interest from airlines in recruiting these students with low hours.
They are not interested in recruiting individuals, they want the whole damn courses.
I used to think the best way was the modular way then instructing to get hours but i've been sending cv's out for a while now and have had absolutely no interest from airlines, the only guys I have seen or heard of being recruited are the 250hr guys.
Good luck to everyone looking for a break with the airlines - its not easy.
I can tell you that there has been a lot of recent interest from airlines in recruiting these students with low hours.
They are not interested in recruiting individuals, they want the whole damn courses.
I used to think the best way was the modular way then instructing to get hours but i've been sending cv's out for a while now and have had absolutely no interest from airlines, the only guys I have seen or heard of being recruited are the 250hr guys.
Good luck to everyone looking for a break with the airlines - its not easy.
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Half cuban
In the marketing department are we?
I was slightly cynical to read your post before I saw that you hadn't mentioned which school you are working for (which Im glad about). Please expand about which airlines are looking for "whole courses" and are looking to recruit low hours guys when there is so much experience out there.
It has certainly been said that 250 hour guys are behind the airplane and are taking upto 30 extra sectors to line train than there "experienced" counterparts.
Also are they looking to recruit guys finishing now or are they looking at the earlier students looking to graduate in 6 months.
If you could expand a little I would be grateful as your post seems to contradict the whole world as we know it.
I for one hope you are wrong as im a fatpl IRI with 1k hours
In the marketing department are we?
I was slightly cynical to read your post before I saw that you hadn't mentioned which school you are working for (which Im glad about). Please expand about which airlines are looking for "whole courses" and are looking to recruit low hours guys when there is so much experience out there.
It has certainly been said that 250 hour guys are behind the airplane and are taking upto 30 extra sectors to line train than there "experienced" counterparts.
Also are they looking to recruit guys finishing now or are they looking at the earlier students looking to graduate in 6 months.
If you could expand a little I would be grateful as your post seems to contradict the whole world as we know it.
I for one hope you are wrong as im a fatpl IRI with 1k hours
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How many students finish with 250 hrs from the integrated course? The majority don't get over 180 hrs (and then only if they've had to resit, or put in extra hours to get up to standard).
Pretty basic, especially in the current (non) employment climate.
Pretty basic, especially in the current (non) employment climate.
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G-Spots - That will be the last we hear of Half Cuban then! 
There is never anything to substantiate these wild claims. Just Like OATS on their website in the 'careers section'.
Tosh - You're right. I came off my course with 169hrs, with zero before I started, and I even had to re-sit a couple of flights!
There is never anything to substantiate these wild claims. Just Like OATS on their website in the 'careers section'.Tosh - You're right. I came off my course with 169hrs, with zero before I started, and I even had to re-sit a couple of flights!
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Astraeus,(who I work for) took on all 6 Cadets who were selected on the Pprune scheme. They are all full time 737 Pilots. Some had low hours, some had 1000 plus, but all of them had the right attitude as far as SOP's, Teamwork, and willingness to learn, as well as pure flying ability.
I'm now involved in our Type Rating course, and we take on outside Students who want to fork out for their own rating at 15k plus vat. Cheap it aint!!
The quality of the students has next to nothing to do with their CV, or their "war stories", but is judged solely on their ability to adapt to 2 crew ops and fly to the appropriate standards.
So far, I know of at least 3 of them who we have employed straight off the Type Rating course, because we were impressed by their attitude and ability.
IMHO its down to the Airline having an open mind and thinking about its future Managers and Captains when it selects new F/O's, not just recruiting cannon fodder to discard at the next downturn.
Yes, you need some luck, but sat on your bum at home is not going to make you lucky. Decide why you are a great asset to a Company, then go sell yourself.
I'm now involved in our Type Rating course, and we take on outside Students who want to fork out for their own rating at 15k plus vat. Cheap it aint!!
The quality of the students has next to nothing to do with their CV, or their "war stories", but is judged solely on their ability to adapt to 2 crew ops and fly to the appropriate standards.
So far, I know of at least 3 of them who we have employed straight off the Type Rating course, because we were impressed by their attitude and ability.
IMHO its down to the Airline having an open mind and thinking about its future Managers and Captains when it selects new F/O's, not just recruiting cannon fodder to discard at the next downturn.
Yes, you need some luck, but sat on your bum at home is not going to make you lucky. Decide why you are a great asset to a Company, then go sell yourself.
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aztruck.....
indeed.....
I sincerely feel these are wise words, however with unreturned phone calls and unacknowledged CV's being the norm at the moment perhaps you could give us a few pointers.
Im the nicest guy I know and I tell funny jokes in the cruise, I havn't got 15k (+VAT) so its probably fair to say I wont be in a position to impress you with my attitude or flying ability.
I agree with what you say but dont please tell us that we need to go out and sell ourselves. Its painfully obvious thats what we need to do but believe me its not easy.
Having said that I agree with where your post is going, and yes luck is a heavy influence but we cant control that can we??
indeed.....
I sincerely feel these are wise words, however with unreturned phone calls and unacknowledged CV's being the norm at the moment perhaps you could give us a few pointers.
Im the nicest guy I know and I tell funny jokes in the cruise, I havn't got 15k (+VAT) so its probably fair to say I wont be in a position to impress you with my attitude or flying ability.
I agree with what you say but dont please tell us that we need to go out and sell ourselves. Its painfully obvious thats what we need to do but believe me its not easy.
Having said that I agree with where your post is going, and yes luck is a heavy influence but we cant control that can we??
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G-SPOTs Lost
No I am definetelly not in the marketing Dept.
All I am saying is I heard from the management from the company I work for that they are in talks with airlines who are interested in taking on courses in the near future.
That is all I was told.
Which airlines?
I don't know I didn't manage to get that information from the person I was talking to.
If I knew I would be trying to talk to someone in their recruitment dept. myself.
Personaly if I was in the recruitment dept of an airline I would go for someone with more hours and experience --- but i'm biased I have over 1000 hrs
No I am definetelly not in the marketing Dept.
All I am saying is I heard from the management from the company I work for that they are in talks with airlines who are interested in taking on courses in the near future.
That is all I was told.
Which airlines?
I don't know I didn't manage to get that information from the person I was talking to.
If I knew I would be trying to talk to someone in their recruitment dept. myself.
Personaly if I was in the recruitment dept of an airline I would go for someone with more hours and experience --- but i'm biased I have over 1000 hrs