Discrimination
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Discrimination
I have applied for every Airline pilot role (Ryanair, BA, Aer Lingus, Wizzair, Jet2, Lauda) and been rejected before selection, in spite of meeting all the required criteria with Valid MEIR/CPL/Class 1 Medical for both UKCAA and EASA.
I am in my late 40s and of a "BAME" ethnicity, although born and raised in the UK.
My question is, how can I validate my suspicion that recruiters might be discriminating against me due to my age and/or ethnicity either due to internal unwritten policy/culture, or recruiters harbouring subconscious biases?
I hope it is not the case, but if it is, then there must be some way to protect people from discrimination in airline recruitment.
I have seen cadets get roles with their only work experience having been a store assistant in a supermarket.
What is the point of listing experience on a CV if 20 years of experience is ignored?
I am in my late 40s and of a "BAME" ethnicity, although born and raised in the UK.
My question is, how can I validate my suspicion that recruiters might be discriminating against me due to my age and/or ethnicity either due to internal unwritten policy/culture, or recruiters harbouring subconscious biases?
I hope it is not the case, but if it is, then there must be some way to protect people from discrimination in airline recruitment.
I have seen cadets get roles with their only work experience having been a store assistant in a supermarket.
What is the point of listing experience on a CV if 20 years of experience is ignored?
All the companies you mentioned have a lot of candidates
I was a bit surprised to see some new hirings of pilots near your age with small airplanes background. I thought they lost their A380 jobs cause of COVID but they were flying small old props before. We also have some BAME, couple of them from UK
I would suggest you apply to more companies
I was a bit surprised to see some new hirings of pilots near your age with small airplanes background. I thought they lost their A380 jobs cause of COVID but they were flying small old props before. We also have some BAME, couple of them from UK
I would suggest you apply to more companies
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Just a question, do you have 20 years of flying experience or do you mean "life" experience?
You'll have a hard time proving you've been discriminated against, unfortunately.
If you have no flying experience, then you'll have to set your sights a bit "lower" and get an instructor rating or look for a turboprop or even piston job further afield.
I was (probably) discriminated against as I had no jet time when I moved to the UK when I was 35. I did have 4500 hours in pistons and turboprops.
Eventually found a jet job.
You'll have a hard time proving you've been discriminated against, unfortunately.
If you have no flying experience, then you'll have to set your sights a bit "lower" and get an instructor rating or look for a turboprop or even piston job further afield.
I was (probably) discriminated against as I had no jet time when I moved to the UK when I was 35. I did have 4500 hours in pistons and turboprops.
Eventually found a jet job.
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Hi Redsnail,
I meant 20 years non flying experience.
I understand your point about maybe getting an instructor certificate, however my point is that others are being hired without an instructor certificate. And these others have less work/life experience than me. Some are even less qualified flying considering they have one licence i.e. UKCAA or EASA, whereas I have both UKCAA AND EASA.
Objectively speaking, I cannot comprehend a recruiter shortlisting candidates with less qualifications and experience. What then is the point of listing experience on a CV.
I meant 20 years non flying experience.
I understand your point about maybe getting an instructor certificate, however my point is that others are being hired without an instructor certificate. And these others have less work/life experience than me. Some are even less qualified flying considering they have one licence i.e. UKCAA or EASA, whereas I have both UKCAA AND EASA.
Objectively speaking, I cannot comprehend a recruiter shortlisting candidates with less qualifications and experience. What then is the point of listing experience on a CV.
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When you're >45 and just done with school, you might find yourself at the back of the line compared to other skilled candidates – those who are younger, have more experience, or higher degrees. So, what makes you the one a company should pick over them?
and please, the racism card is tiring. Look inside before pointing fingers.
and please, the racism card is tiring. Look inside before pointing fingers.
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When you're >45 and just done with school, you might find yourself at the back of the line compared to other skilled candidates – those who are younger, have more experience, or higher degrees. So, what makes you the one a company should pick over them?
and please, the racism card is tiring. Look inside before pointing fingers.
and please, the racism card is tiring. Look inside before pointing fingers.
So you accept Age based discrimination is probable but Race based discrimination is improbable.
Interesting.
But why do you feel Age based discrimination is acceptable, isn't it illegal?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Hi jirving75,
What recruiters are really looking for is flying experience. Some work experience can be a useful crossover but most isn't. I don't know what you've done in your life, so I can't be more specific.
Rightly or wrongly, many companies perceive folks over 40 with no previous flying experience as a training risk. That is, you'll take longer or even fail the type rating. I am not saying you will, but there seems to be this perception. Thus it's easier to simply not hire over 40s. Just as it was easier to not hire women for many decades.
It is true that generally, our ability to process new/novel information begins to slowly decline from an average age of 35.
You won't be able to prove it because you're not the one reviewing all the applications so your assertion that the other candidates have less qualifications than you are really just your opinion.
I have 3 ATPLs. UK CAA, EASA and CASA. The CASA one is useless to my employer as we don't have VH-reg aircraft. Strictly, the UK CAA one is useless to them as my fleet is not on the G-reg.
Well done on having both tickets, but it makes you flexible as to who you can apply to, not necessarily more qualified.
What recruiters are really looking for is flying experience. Some work experience can be a useful crossover but most isn't. I don't know what you've done in your life, so I can't be more specific.
Rightly or wrongly, many companies perceive folks over 40 with no previous flying experience as a training risk. That is, you'll take longer or even fail the type rating. I am not saying you will, but there seems to be this perception. Thus it's easier to simply not hire over 40s. Just as it was easier to not hire women for many decades.
It is true that generally, our ability to process new/novel information begins to slowly decline from an average age of 35.
You won't be able to prove it because you're not the one reviewing all the applications so your assertion that the other candidates have less qualifications than you are really just your opinion.
I have 3 ATPLs. UK CAA, EASA and CASA. The CASA one is useless to my employer as we don't have VH-reg aircraft. Strictly, the UK CAA one is useless to them as my fleet is not on the G-reg.
Well done on having both tickets, but it makes you flexible as to who you can apply to, not necessarily more qualified.
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My father applied for every Airline pilot role (Ryanair, BA, Aer Lingus, Wizzair, Jet2, Lauda) and been rejected before selection, in spite of meeting all the required criteria with Valid MEIR/CPL/Class 1 Medical for both UKCAA and EASA.
He is 64 and 1/16th indian, although born and raised in the UK.
My question is, how can I validate my suspicion that recruiters might be discriminating against him due to his age and/or ethnicity either due to internal unwritten policy/culture, or recruiters harbouring subconscious biases?
I hope it is not the case, but if it is, then there must be some way to protect people from discrimination in airline recruitment.
I have seen cadets get roles with their only work experience having been a store assistant in a supermarket.
What is the point of listing experience on a CV if 45 years of experience as a store manager in a supermarket is ignored?
He is 64 and 1/16th indian, although born and raised in the UK.
My question is, how can I validate my suspicion that recruiters might be discriminating against him due to his age and/or ethnicity either due to internal unwritten policy/culture, or recruiters harbouring subconscious biases?
I hope it is not the case, but if it is, then there must be some way to protect people from discrimination in airline recruitment.
I have seen cadets get roles with their only work experience having been a store assistant in a supermarket.
What is the point of listing experience on a CV if 45 years of experience as a store manager in a supermarket is ignored?
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I couldn't have said it better 
I'm also in my late forties with low hours. Wizzair and the others didn't even answer.
That's life and I cannot blame them for my late career switch.
I finally found a job on a jet after countless airlines put my resume in the bin. You just need to persevere, not put blame on others
I'm also in my late forties with low hours. Wizzair and the others didn't even answer.
That's life and I cannot blame them for my late career switch.
I finally found a job on a jet after countless airlines put my resume in the bin. You just need to persevere, not put blame on others
I would be surprised if this was BAME discrimination. The industry is simply very competitive, and there are thousands of hopefuls and wannabes in the queue.
I don't know this for sure, but I am almost sure that any chief pilot will clear their desk every few weeks or so, and sweep all the CVs that have accumulated, into the bin.
When they need pilots, only then will they will start looking at the CVs, and take the first that pass the required criteria from the top of the pile. On my ATPL course all those years ago; one lad got a direct entry cadet position with a new LoCo, but the rest of us got no reply, even though we all had similar experience and were on the same course.
Even 25 years ago, this was happening; I sent out loads and loads of CVs, receiving perhaps one or two replies for, say, 40 sent.
So you have to be lucky and you have to work the way the system works. Make yourself as employable and as easy to employ as you can. Make sure all your paperwork is present and up to date. Make sure your CV is good - improve it if you can. Work on your covering letter, and answers to all the usual questions - research those as well. BALPA should be able to help you with these things.
Network as much as you can.
You should be prepared to consider and take a posting in a "foreign" country at the drop of a hat, if you really want this; That might be all there is on offer for you now, but it could be the crucial first step.
Good luck and keep applying periodically
(For what it's worth, ageism is definitely out there, even though it is illegal, but they have ways around that. Make sure you practice, practice, and are really quick at the
on-line tests, and also 25 maths questions in 12 mins, and similar for verbal reasoning.)
I don't know this for sure, but I am almost sure that any chief pilot will clear their desk every few weeks or so, and sweep all the CVs that have accumulated, into the bin.
When they need pilots, only then will they will start looking at the CVs, and take the first that pass the required criteria from the top of the pile. On my ATPL course all those years ago; one lad got a direct entry cadet position with a new LoCo, but the rest of us got no reply, even though we all had similar experience and were on the same course.
Even 25 years ago, this was happening; I sent out loads and loads of CVs, receiving perhaps one or two replies for, say, 40 sent.
So you have to be lucky and you have to work the way the system works. Make yourself as employable and as easy to employ as you can. Make sure all your paperwork is present and up to date. Make sure your CV is good - improve it if you can. Work on your covering letter, and answers to all the usual questions - research those as well. BALPA should be able to help you with these things.
Network as much as you can.
You should be prepared to consider and take a posting in a "foreign" country at the drop of a hat, if you really want this; That might be all there is on offer for you now, but it could be the crucial first step.
Good luck and keep applying periodically
(For what it's worth, ageism is definitely out there, even though it is illegal, but they have ways around that. Make sure you practice, practice, and are really quick at the
on-line tests, and also 25 maths questions in 12 mins, and similar for verbal reasoning.)Last edited by Uplinker; 14th Aug 2023 at 16:25. Reason: typo
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Thank you African_TrouserSnake.
So you accept Age based discrimination is probable but Race based discrimination is improbable.
Interesting.
But why do you feel Age based discrimination is acceptable, isn't it illegal?
So you accept Age based discrimination is probable but Race based discrimination is improbable.
Interesting.
But why do you feel Age based discrimination is acceptable, isn't it illegal?
you “may” be discriminated due to age but if the airline thinks you’re too old to get a return and can justify that, its not illegal
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I personally think age is a factor here, sadly. My personal experience having qualified at age 37, I undertook an MCC course at a provider whom at the time were known for being a pipeline into RYR. There were 12 of us on the course, 10 of whom were under 25, myself age 37 and another chap age 40. We were all told to submit our CV’s to RYR. The 10 youngsters were all interviewed, but us 2 older candidates were never contacted. I had passed everything first time in minimum hours (including ATPL theory with no resits and a 93% average) whilst holding down a full-time job. I eventually found a turboprop role and subsequently moved to a jet operator. If I was you I would be hopeful that as the pool of UK candidates shrinks then an opportunity could open up for you, don’t lose hope and try to network with recruiters. And if you can find any flying (skydivers etc) to keep your hand in that may also help.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Myself and Mrs Uplinker have both been through aircrew selection processes (me pilot, Mrs U Purser), where selection went well until there came a point where they need to see your passport for "security reasons and to verify identity".
Mysteriously, soon after seeing our passports (and therefore our DOBs become known); we are informed that the selection process - that had been going well - cannot be taken any further.
This has happened twice to me, and once to Mrs Uplinker. In her case she was one of only 7 out of 21 who actually passed selection, but after her DoB became known, she was given the PFO and a candidate who had FAILED the same selection process on the same day, (but who was younger), was re-contacted and was given the job
I was shocked at how young both flight-deck were on a recent Eurowings flight I was on for business. They were really young, probably barely in their 20s.
Mysteriously, soon after seeing our passports (and therefore our DOBs become known); we are informed that the selection process - that had been going well - cannot be taken any further.
This has happened twice to me, and once to Mrs Uplinker. In her case she was one of only 7 out of 21 who actually passed selection, but after her DoB became known, she was given the PFO and a candidate who had FAILED the same selection process on the same day, (but who was younger), was re-contacted and was given the job
I was shocked at how young both flight-deck were on a recent Eurowings flight I was on for business. They were really young, probably barely in their 20s.
I assume the arbitrary point in time that their parents decided to conceive did not hinder their ability to fly an ILS too much?
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Unfortunately you’re one of many who may have experienced discrimination and I sympathise with you, as I have been there myself.
My advice don’t let it get to you. Don’t bother trying to find proof. It’s an unproductive use of your time. You have more important things to do. stay positive and believe in yourself.
Revise your cv. Remove anything that may give away your age. Get some advice about how to best to prepare for airline selection from a professional mentoring service.
keep on networking, it has helped me greatly. Also I have been in the position to help others.
register with agencies, these guys will have opportunities.
There are several turbo prop operators and Jet operators who don’t discriminate. Many more are willing to embrace diversity.
Also, bear in mind most big operators have thousands of applications for just a few jobs. Put your best foot forward and make your application stand out. Many great candidates are easily missed when HR is swimming in a sea of applications.
I got my first commercial opportunity at 41and still flying. I’m female, mixed race and it has never stopped me! I get head hunted on a regular basis and have even been offered jobs I didn’t even apply for.
Believe in yourself, you will find an opportunity you will like. We all experience rejection. Don’t let it bother you.
wishing you the very best,
cessnagirl 😎✈️
My advice don’t let it get to you. Don’t bother trying to find proof. It’s an unproductive use of your time. You have more important things to do. stay positive and believe in yourself.
Revise your cv. Remove anything that may give away your age. Get some advice about how to best to prepare for airline selection from a professional mentoring service.
keep on networking, it has helped me greatly. Also I have been in the position to help others.
register with agencies, these guys will have opportunities.
There are several turbo prop operators and Jet operators who don’t discriminate. Many more are willing to embrace diversity.
Also, bear in mind most big operators have thousands of applications for just a few jobs. Put your best foot forward and make your application stand out. Many great candidates are easily missed when HR is swimming in a sea of applications.
I got my first commercial opportunity at 41and still flying. I’m female, mixed race and it has never stopped me! I get head hunted on a regular basis and have even been offered jobs I didn’t even apply for.
Believe in yourself, you will find an opportunity you will like. We all experience rejection. Don’t let it bother you.
wishing you the very best,
cessnagirl 😎✈️
VPP; please don't try to suggest that I think all pilots should be crusty old gits - far from it.
My question is, how can I validate my suspicion that recruiters might be discriminating against me due to my age and/or ethnicity either due to internal unwritten policy/culture, or recruiters harbouring subconscious biases?
Experience is only relevant if it is specified in any advert.
Unfortunately may class you as training risk (wrongly in my opinion, but still..)
Also late 40's doing SH at the bottom is very physically demanding, not commenting on your situation but it may cross their minds.
Also late 40's doing SH at the bottom is very physically demanding, not commenting on your situation but it may cross their minds.