How I feel about all of it
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Toughen up princess, you don't know how unbelievably lucky you are.
Go to most countries outside of Europe and you won't get a job on a piston twin without at least 1000 hours piston single. First turboprop FO position maybe with 3000. My friend just interviewed for Southwest Airlines B737 FO, he had 8000 hours, that was pretty average experience in his round of interviews he tells me.
Yeah I know it's different in Europe
but seriously anyone who cries and walks away because they haven't got onto a jet within a year after graduation, deserves zero sympathy and a big reality check.
Instruct for 5 years and then fly turboprops for 10 years after that, and then you've earned the right to be bitter and twisted about jet jobs
Go to most countries outside of Europe and you won't get a job on a piston twin without at least 1000 hours piston single. First turboprop FO position maybe with 3000. My friend just interviewed for Southwest Airlines B737 FO, he had 8000 hours, that was pretty average experience in his round of interviews he tells me.
Yeah I know it's different in Europe
but seriously anyone who cries and walks away because they haven't got onto a jet within a year after graduation, deserves zero sympathy and a big reality check.Instruct for 5 years and then fly turboprops for 10 years after that, and then you've earned the right to be bitter and twisted about jet jobs
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Luke mate, a bit harsh. I don't think he was moaning about how long it took. I think the post highlights that it is possible without mortgaging yourself to the eyeballs to do a full time course.
Wodka, good on you.
Wodka, good on you.
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From what I can see, and my experience in the commercial aviation world is zero, is that the flight schools keep churning out new fATPL's into an environment where jobs for low hours cadets are minimal and conditions in the eventual first jobs they may get are in some cases, disgraceful. I have been debating with myself for the past year over whether to continue with my modular training and seek an airline job, but the harsh and unfortunate reality is that the jobs are scarce and in my eyes is not worth the circa €65-90k investment.
I hope in the future it will change and become more stabilised. Here in Ireland the number of jobless fATPL holders is frightening.
I hope in the future it will change and become more stabilised. Here in Ireland the number of jobless fATPL holders is frightening.
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@ speed alive rotate: Ya that's a killer alright, AFTA in cork had a steady flow of 200hr fATPL's being hired by ryanair up until a year or so ago, now a lot of their graduates are sitting on the shelf awaiting the uncertain future, it's a shame!
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Flying in an airline is pretty boring, the day you get the first jet job you are super excited about it, and feel happy.
After a year or less you realize it's just a job and can become very repetitive especially if you fly for EZ or RYR.
It becomes slightly more interesting in the charter or VIP world.
As an FO you will have to put up with some horrible folk to fly with, not everyone but odds are you will fly with more unpleasant captains than nice ones, and find yourself questioning why you signed up for this...
I did the instructor thing, the African thing, jets, VIP etc for over 20 years, about 6 months ago I left aviation and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner!
Still read the pprune to justify my decision to leave industry
Don't stress your not missing out on much.
After a year or less you realize it's just a job and can become very repetitive especially if you fly for EZ or RYR.
It becomes slightly more interesting in the charter or VIP world.
As an FO you will have to put up with some horrible folk to fly with, not everyone but odds are you will fly with more unpleasant captains than nice ones, and find yourself questioning why you signed up for this...
I did the instructor thing, the African thing, jets, VIP etc for over 20 years, about 6 months ago I left aviation and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner!
Still read the pprune to justify my decision to leave industry
Don't stress your not missing out on much.
As an FO you will have to put up with some horrible folk to fly with, not everyone but odds are you will fly with more unpleasant captains than nice ones,
In the interests of balance may be somebody should point out that it works both ways........as someone told early on during my command conversion "You're about to find out not all the ********* are in the Left Hand Seat".
They were right...........in any job there are always the 10%, if you're seeing more than that maybe it's time for a change of company or perhaps there's a problem elsewhere...
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Reality
I speak as an FO here, and would be fairly confident most of the ***** in the cockpit nowadays sit in the RHS, sadly…. Yeah sure there will always be Captains you don't like to fly with but it's rare these days I meet an FO I would go for a beer with, regardless of the company by the way.
And OP, you've struggled for a year and feel like giving up? We've all been there but you need to man up (or woman up!) because you will need to be made of sterner stuff if you are going to succeed in this.
A very senior recruiter for a UK airline told me recently that even though they are crying out for pilots ''90% of new fATPL's are completely unemployable'' and that is why they stick to the big schools, it actually has nothing to do with flying hours but the sad reality that most newbies can barely hold a conversation let alone impress at an interview
Good luck bro, you are going to need it
And OP, you've struggled for a year and feel like giving up? We've all been there but you need to man up (or woman up!) because you will need to be made of sterner stuff if you are going to succeed in this.
A very senior recruiter for a UK airline told me recently that even though they are crying out for pilots ''90% of new fATPL's are completely unemployable'' and that is why they stick to the big schools, it actually has nothing to do with flying hours but the sad reality that most newbies can barely hold a conversation let alone impress at an interview
Good luck bro, you are going to need it
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I'm still junior and not involved in any interviewing process so can't give you a definitive answer to that. However I am 26 years old and am now flying for my fourth company, in time having chatted to many of the top tier guys along the way so if you want me to speculate on where the problem lies:
1) A shocking unwillingness to travel - might seem silly but people are becoming pilots and will only work on a certain aircraft out of a certain base, family commitments are understandable but the lack of flexibility is shocking
2) Not actually looking for jobs, just reading pilot jobs websites and waiting for their golden ticket, I flew for a small UK airline on a multi pilot TP for two years and half the young guys now would consider it beneath them, and the other half don't even know such companies exist even though they have hired 15 pilots in two years and type rate you for free with no bond
3) Guys and girls are sitting at interviews now and fidgeting because they feel uncomfortable without their smart phones in their hands and don't actually have the skills to hold an adult conversation. This is unbelievably common now. You have pages and pages on pprune of guys trying to get interview Q's to a variety of airlines and none of them realise that 99% of todays interviews are based on the Q:
''Do I wanna sit beside this guy and would I trust him/her with my family in the back?''
4) ''I have 250 hours but haven't flown in the last year, haven't made any attempt to fly in the last year, probably won't try very hard in the year to come... but I really really want to be a pilot with your airline….''
Meanwhile the other 10% are out there instructing, dropping parachuters or travelling around the world searching for starter jobs, and those are the guys getting jobs and the ones I'll be hiring if I ever go into that side of it
One final myth which needs to be debunked is the modular vs integrated debate, there is no debate, it is a nonsense. If you want to fly for Easy, go to CTC/Oxford, pay your inflated price and go straight into your jet (yawn….. )
If your under 30 then go modular, save yourself a fortune, spend everything you have saved on beer and beautiful women… fly around in turbo props in scary weather in strange places and develop life experience and a personality! Go get a starter job and eventually you will get into a jet and can bore yourself to death for the rest of your career
For context I am an Integrated grad but along my path have met many modular guys, the majority actually and they have just as much success as anyone else
1) A shocking unwillingness to travel - might seem silly but people are becoming pilots and will only work on a certain aircraft out of a certain base, family commitments are understandable but the lack of flexibility is shocking
2) Not actually looking for jobs, just reading pilot jobs websites and waiting for their golden ticket, I flew for a small UK airline on a multi pilot TP for two years and half the young guys now would consider it beneath them, and the other half don't even know such companies exist even though they have hired 15 pilots in two years and type rate you for free with no bond
3) Guys and girls are sitting at interviews now and fidgeting because they feel uncomfortable without their smart phones in their hands and don't actually have the skills to hold an adult conversation. This is unbelievably common now. You have pages and pages on pprune of guys trying to get interview Q's to a variety of airlines and none of them realise that 99% of todays interviews are based on the Q:
''Do I wanna sit beside this guy and would I trust him/her with my family in the back?''
4) ''I have 250 hours but haven't flown in the last year, haven't made any attempt to fly in the last year, probably won't try very hard in the year to come... but I really really want to be a pilot with your airline….''
Meanwhile the other 10% are out there instructing, dropping parachuters or travelling around the world searching for starter jobs, and those are the guys getting jobs and the ones I'll be hiring if I ever go into that side of it
One final myth which needs to be debunked is the modular vs integrated debate, there is no debate, it is a nonsense. If you want to fly for Easy, go to CTC/Oxford, pay your inflated price and go straight into your jet (yawn….. )
If your under 30 then go modular, save yourself a fortune, spend everything you have saved on beer and beautiful women… fly around in turbo props in scary weather in strange places and develop life experience and a personality! Go get a starter job and eventually you will get into a jet and can bore yourself to death for the rest of your career
For context I am an Integrated grad but along my path have met many modular guys, the majority actually and they have just as much success as anyone else
Last edited by cgwhitemonk11; 5th Jan 2015 at 18:44.
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I am just interested in where all these small jobs are flying light twins and small companies. I finished training 8 months ago and just want to fly. Jumping into a jet RHS will come. I want to fly and and get a wage any wage and build time. Any ideas..
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Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on that! Have to say, I was expecting something more .. I don't even know how to put it - What you described seems just so fundamental to piloting that it just baffles me such individuals actually exist. Not willing to travel? Are you kidding me? TP beneath you? Seems like the most exciting part of aviation these days if you ask me! Definitely an eye opener, thanks for sharing.
I'm also just 26 and only recently got my piece of paper (after saving up and going to uni). I actually hope I'll have the opportunity of flying a (small) TP, like a King Air or Pilatus for example; I actually want to fly an airplane rather than sit in the cockpit with my feet up for 2 hours so to speak!
I'm quite impressed you're already at your 4th company - Really shows that there are plenty of opportunities out there for jobs if you're willing to look! Mind sharing or PM'ing me the name of the TP operator you were talking about?
I'm also just 26 and only recently got my piece of paper (after saving up and going to uni). I actually hope I'll have the opportunity of flying a (small) TP, like a King Air or Pilatus for example; I actually want to fly an airplane rather than sit in the cockpit with my feet up for 2 hours so to speak!
I'm quite impressed you're already at your 4th company - Really shows that there are plenty of opportunities out there for jobs if you're willing to look! Mind sharing or PM'ing me the name of the TP operator you were talking about?
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@cgwhitemonk11: Great last post mate, very informative and you sound like a very sensible person who will make a great captain in the future. Great information and advice for people who are near or have just finished their training! Regards SAR
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@cgwhitemonk11 great post fella. Unfortunately I feel that the large group of people you are referring to has had a negative impact on recruiters, as that is the type of person they are seeing all day long. Makes it even harder for the genuine people out there. Whatever happened to going out and getting some life experience.
This is the type of person that I have come across...A fella at my flying school for example finally passed his CPL after his 7th (Yes seventh) attempt and was duly seen photographing himself with a white shirt, 3 golden bars as he was now a commercial pilot.
I finally got my licence later in life, have absolutely no interest in airlines but I am absolutely gobsmacked with the attitude of most young people these days. You are certainly a refreshing break from that.
For me I'm going to escape what has become of this industry and fly my own little plane upside down after a days work in the fish bowl.
This is the type of person that I have come across...A fella at my flying school for example finally passed his CPL after his 7th (Yes seventh) attempt and was duly seen photographing himself with a white shirt, 3 golden bars as he was now a commercial pilot.
I finally got my licence later in life, have absolutely no interest in airlines but I am absolutely gobsmacked with the attitude of most young people these days. You are certainly a refreshing break from that.
For me I'm going to escape what has become of this industry and fly my own little plane upside down after a days work in the fish bowl.
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Cheers SAR, I feel sorry for the guys who are out there trying that can't catch a break but none for the majority who are sitting at home waiting for Ryanair to call. Then again I have friends who are captains with Locos by now who would probably think me a failure for choosing my path but I will be on a Jet at 30, with 30 years ahead of me so whats the rush?!
Your not gonna become a millionaire doing this but I think people really struggle with that reality after a few years in the business and that has a lot to do with the amount of people who leave, that and the monotony of the job after a time. But there is a solution to that too if you are willing to face it, move to another role or airline, take a pay cut if necessary, if you find yourself 5 years in a single role then I strongly believe you should move on. This requires a flexible and understanding partner which is much harder to find than an airline job I think, there are much more experienced hands on here for that advice however.
I just wish someone had sat me down when I was 18 and said the things I have just said, it would have saved me a lot of time and tears, I spent 2.5 years working in a bar wondering why airlines weren't calling me until i woke up one day and said **** this I need to do something about this myself. I regret few things, but not spending those 2.5 years instructing is one of them. The money is crap yes but at least you are flying and in my last airline and my new one, 50% of the people on the TR courses came straight from instructor jobs so it is a way in.
Off the top of my head, friends have gotten jobs with the following over the last year:
BEA Systems
RVL Group
West Atlantic
Flybe
Skybus
Skydive Ireland
Loganair
Tag Aviation
And thats just people I know! none of them had to give the companies a dime towards their training yet crucially all of them were currently flying in one role or another
Your not gonna become a millionaire doing this but I think people really struggle with that reality after a few years in the business and that has a lot to do with the amount of people who leave, that and the monotony of the job after a time. But there is a solution to that too if you are willing to face it, move to another role or airline, take a pay cut if necessary, if you find yourself 5 years in a single role then I strongly believe you should move on. This requires a flexible and understanding partner which is much harder to find than an airline job I think, there are much more experienced hands on here for that advice however.
I just wish someone had sat me down when I was 18 and said the things I have just said, it would have saved me a lot of time and tears, I spent 2.5 years working in a bar wondering why airlines weren't calling me until i woke up one day and said **** this I need to do something about this myself. I regret few things, but not spending those 2.5 years instructing is one of them. The money is crap yes but at least you are flying and in my last airline and my new one, 50% of the people on the TR courses came straight from instructor jobs so it is a way in.
Off the top of my head, friends have gotten jobs with the following over the last year:
BEA Systems
RVL Group
West Atlantic
Flybe
Skybus
Skydive Ireland
Loganair
Tag Aviation
And thats just people I know! none of them had to give the companies a dime towards their training yet crucially all of them were currently flying in one role or another
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cgwhitemonk11 - that's some great insight you have there, thanks for posting
AIMINGHIGH123 - genuine question because I'm struggling even with my first flying gig. How do you manage to support yourself for those 3.5 years of trying and still keep current with flying? I admire your sticking power but I lnow theres no way I could afford to do it
AIMINGHIGH123 - genuine question because I'm struggling even with my first flying gig. How do you manage to support yourself for those 3.5 years of trying and still keep current with flying? I admire your sticking power but I lnow theres no way I could afford to do it
