Time to say goodbye!!
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I would dearly love to be part time but how?
With recurrent/LPC/OPC costs as they are no one will employ you on a part time basis as it is just not productive for them. Likewise to be freelance I would be expected to fund twice yearly training running into around 40k so would need to earn 80k a year to make it worthwhile. How do you earn 80k part time?
With recurrent/LPC/OPC costs as they are no one will employ you on a part time basis as it is just not productive for them. Likewise to be freelance I would be expected to fund twice yearly training running into around 40k so would need to earn 80k a year to make it worthwhile. How do you earn 80k part time?
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Woody, I wish you well and commend you for choosing not to join the race to the bottom.
However your post reads like a whiney text-speak tantrum from a spoilt brat. ( I'm sure you're not ,but that's how it looks) You got a job flying biz jets around the world with 500 hours. That didn't seem to fit in with your lifestyle so you throw your toys out the pram when the airlines fail to offer you a job. If the applications were written with the same standard of grammar and punctuation as your post ,I'm not surprised .
However your post reads like a whiney text-speak tantrum from a spoilt brat. ( I'm sure you're not ,but that's how it looks) You got a job flying biz jets around the world with 500 hours. That didn't seem to fit in with your lifestyle so you throw your toys out the pram when the airlines fail to offer you a job. If the applications were written with the same standard of grammar and punctuation as your post ,I'm not surprised .
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Bealzebub;
Surely your elephant memory is less than impressive, as some speak a lot of words, but actually get little information from it, while others prefer to tell it as it is, for me some of your opinions are very management like.
It makes me wonder, when somebody as you, who obviously have spent long time in the industry and have plenty of experience, and have positioned yourself within the aviation gravy train, can relate to conditions available today. Even worse, that the prospect even with experience is pretty somber, unless you decide to move even further away either with or without your family.
Of course, I can't speak for your situation, as I know many prefer to be married to their Jet, than actually having to relate to other human beings as either partners or children.
You sound so much like what the management of companies want to profess, you should lower your expectations, do not expect to much, as this is actually a profession in serious decline.
Now I am all for going the grades, from the bottom to the top, and it is admirable to see guys working as cabin crew, dreaming of one day becoming a pilot.
I understand it is to much of a luxury for me to expect to have 1 hot meal during a 14 hour working day.
I understand that I should expect to work every holiday, like Easter, Christmas, new year and all summer. So there will actually be no time off if you do have children to spend time with them, lot less to be able to take them on vacation.
I understand that the pay should so low, that after tax, I would make more working in a supermarket. Of course most of these companies encourage tax fraud, that is another nice perk.
I understand that if I am sick, I should not get paid, it leaves me in the dilemma, should I elect to work while sick, to be able to pay my monthly expenses, and cause a safety risk, or should I report off sick and not get a penny.
I understand I should work, even though I am not feeling sufficiently rested, because if you do report yourself unfit, the question is why are YOU doing it, while all the rest are ok! But have you seen them yawn themselves trough 4 sector day of 12 - 14 hours duty time? If I was a fly on the wall, for the passengers, I would not even have boarded the flight seeing this.
I understand, this is the supply and demand, the planning see you as a number, that they will exploit the maximum they can, without concern of your welfare, either professional or personal.
I understand, after over 20 years of experience in business, that I have not seen a profession with such responsibility, skills training treated so badly by management, in ANY profession I have been in contact with.
I understand, I have in the same period, never seen so many professionals accept so much BS by their management, just to satisfy their own egos of flying a jet.
I am embarrassed to talk to anyone outside aviation about the reality of working conditions within today's aviation industry.
Of course everybody has this Utopic dream, that once they have experience, they will find an employer that respects them, that values them, however to many companies today are focusing on the bottom line and largest possible profit margin, and treating humans a commodities.
They will take you, use you, and throw you out as soon as they find another desperate idiot to replace you.
Now I have noticed how easy, and how many within the aviation "old school" - who are already in the gravy train position, keep selling the aviation dream or if not profiting on the aviation dream. From FTO's, TRTO's, Sim centers, assessment agencies, recruitment agencies, HR connections within companies, it is all inter-tangled together in a big spaghetti, where selling the dream is a win win for everybody.
I just heard a recent story where few guys spent 180.000 Euros, to pay for TR and linetraining, there was pilots involved and profiting from this, that it ended up in a big mess was another story, I have seen equally many other stories where it is a big gravy train everybody is trying to get on.
The biggest success I had in business, was when I tried to undersell something, using extreme sincerity and honesty, it actually created greater success than trying to tell everybody how great everything is. It is a physiological effect, that sucks people in to it, instead of scaring them away from it. Because they might be the Special One, the exception to the rule, who might end up in the super job, that no longer exists.
I understand because it is a profession that you love to do, you should except any conditions and treatment, because this is developed and is the heritage of the aviation industry and the pilots from the past.
Of course I also understand, that pilots who enjoyed the golden age, are not to blame for the development of this profession. But in most professions, teachers, doctors etc. there would have been some kind of unity in unacceptable and unsatisfactory conditions.
It's up to us to decide, if this profession should be considered as a bus driver, bus drivers (no offence to them) earn around £30.000 - £40.000 a year, and their training will cost at least 1/10 th of pilot training.
There is an illness in the industry, there are to many mediocre people in it to be bothered to want to make a change, they just happy to show of their blue book and a few fancy photos, and wear a uniform with some meaningless extra stripes on!
Btw, there is no sarcasm in anything that I have written here
Surely your elephant memory is less than impressive, as some speak a lot of words, but actually get little information from it, while others prefer to tell it as it is, for me some of your opinions are very management like.
It makes me wonder, when somebody as you, who obviously have spent long time in the industry and have plenty of experience, and have positioned yourself within the aviation gravy train, can relate to conditions available today. Even worse, that the prospect even with experience is pretty somber, unless you decide to move even further away either with or without your family.
Of course, I can't speak for your situation, as I know many prefer to be married to their Jet, than actually having to relate to other human beings as either partners or children.
You sound so much like what the management of companies want to profess, you should lower your expectations, do not expect to much, as this is actually a profession in serious decline.
Now I am all for going the grades, from the bottom to the top, and it is admirable to see guys working as cabin crew, dreaming of one day becoming a pilot.
I understand it is to much of a luxury for me to expect to have 1 hot meal during a 14 hour working day.
I understand that I should expect to work every holiday, like Easter, Christmas, new year and all summer. So there will actually be no time off if you do have children to spend time with them, lot less to be able to take them on vacation.
I understand that the pay should so low, that after tax, I would make more working in a supermarket. Of course most of these companies encourage tax fraud, that is another nice perk.
I understand that if I am sick, I should not get paid, it leaves me in the dilemma, should I elect to work while sick, to be able to pay my monthly expenses, and cause a safety risk, or should I report off sick and not get a penny.
I understand I should work, even though I am not feeling sufficiently rested, because if you do report yourself unfit, the question is why are YOU doing it, while all the rest are ok! But have you seen them yawn themselves trough 4 sector day of 12 - 14 hours duty time? If I was a fly on the wall, for the passengers, I would not even have boarded the flight seeing this.
I understand, this is the supply and demand, the planning see you as a number, that they will exploit the maximum they can, without concern of your welfare, either professional or personal.
I understand, after over 20 years of experience in business, that I have not seen a profession with such responsibility, skills training treated so badly by management, in ANY profession I have been in contact with.
I understand, I have in the same period, never seen so many professionals accept so much BS by their management, just to satisfy their own egos of flying a jet.
I am embarrassed to talk to anyone outside aviation about the reality of working conditions within today's aviation industry.
Of course everybody has this Utopic dream, that once they have experience, they will find an employer that respects them, that values them, however to many companies today are focusing on the bottom line and largest possible profit margin, and treating humans a commodities.
They will take you, use you, and throw you out as soon as they find another desperate idiot to replace you.
Now I have noticed how easy, and how many within the aviation "old school" - who are already in the gravy train position, keep selling the aviation dream or if not profiting on the aviation dream. From FTO's, TRTO's, Sim centers, assessment agencies, recruitment agencies, HR connections within companies, it is all inter-tangled together in a big spaghetti, where selling the dream is a win win for everybody.
I just heard a recent story where few guys spent 180.000 Euros, to pay for TR and linetraining, there was pilots involved and profiting from this, that it ended up in a big mess was another story, I have seen equally many other stories where it is a big gravy train everybody is trying to get on.
The biggest success I had in business, was when I tried to undersell something, using extreme sincerity and honesty, it actually created greater success than trying to tell everybody how great everything is. It is a physiological effect, that sucks people in to it, instead of scaring them away from it. Because they might be the Special One, the exception to the rule, who might end up in the super job, that no longer exists.
I understand because it is a profession that you love to do, you should except any conditions and treatment, because this is developed and is the heritage of the aviation industry and the pilots from the past.
Of course I also understand, that pilots who enjoyed the golden age, are not to blame for the development of this profession. But in most professions, teachers, doctors etc. there would have been some kind of unity in unacceptable and unsatisfactory conditions.
It's up to us to decide, if this profession should be considered as a bus driver, bus drivers (no offence to them) earn around £30.000 - £40.000 a year, and their training will cost at least 1/10 th of pilot training.
There is an illness in the industry, there are to many mediocre people in it to be bothered to want to make a change, they just happy to show of their blue book and a few fancy photos, and wear a uniform with some meaningless extra stripes on!
Btw, there is no sarcasm in anything that I have written here
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HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD
You seem to not have read what Woody said, he was offered a job with an airline, but he turned it down due to the conditions, was not acceptable for him.
If more was like him, this industry would not be in such a shambles as it is today.
You seem to not have read what Woody said, he was offered a job with an airline, but he turned it down due to the conditions, was not acceptable for him.
If more was like him, this industry would not be in such a shambles as it is today.
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Btw, there is no sarcasm in anything that I have written here.
Many people (including myself) have been writing here for 15 years or more, and spelling out the history, the evolution, and the realities of this particular section of the commercial aviation industry. There is a lot of information and advice for anybody who wants to avail of themselves of it. There is a lot of flotsam to have to wade through, but for those prepared to make the effort there are some very useful accounts of knowledge and experience as well.
It is up to the individual to use or discard that information as they see fit. I am quite happy that every single post I have made here is done so as honestly, reasonably, balanced, and based on experience, as it can be.
It is very rare that anything is posted here that hasn't been discussed previously, and all of the "red flags" and "health warnings" have been highlighted time and time again. Yet, and despite those warnings, people continue to rush headlong in to many of the same brick walls. Others have described this as the "relentless march of the Zombie army." In many ways I think that is unfair, but there is certainly more than an element of truth in it.
Surely your elephant memory is less than impressive, as some speak a lot of words, but actually get little information from it, while others prefer to tell it as it is, for me some of your opinions are very management like.
If you hate the job you are in, leave! Nobody pressganged you into it. I seem to recall you saying a year ago last August:
I recently helped 3 guys get job offer, which providing they don't screw up their training, they will have a job.
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commercial pilot -VS- MBA
after reading all this i m confused or afraid if you say...........should i or should i not ? in next 6 months i am going to start my PPL training followed by CPL and IR's......... is the job market really that bad to get a job as commercial pilots everyone suggest i have an automobile degree and was planing for an MBA but being a pilot is my dream
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Fai-saudagar
May I respectfully suggest that you spend a good few hours reading through the posts in this forum and others.
You will have to make your mind up in the end - it is entirely up to you which way you decide to go. You will find there are numerous people who have failed to realise their dreams and end up embittered. There are those who tell it as it is and there are others who wear rose-tinted spectacles and live in hope.
Irrespective of their views, it is a profession that demands high standards and the training to achieve those standards is not cheap or easy.
I wish you good luck but spend time doing your OWN research. Don't expect a bulletin board to spoon feed you answers.
HWB
Moderator
May I respectfully suggest that you spend a good few hours reading through the posts in this forum and others.
You will have to make your mind up in the end - it is entirely up to you which way you decide to go. You will find there are numerous people who have failed to realise their dreams and end up embittered. There are those who tell it as it is and there are others who wear rose-tinted spectacles and live in hope.
Irrespective of their views, it is a profession that demands high standards and the training to achieve those standards is not cheap or easy.
I wish you good luck but spend time doing your OWN research. Don't expect a bulletin board to spoon feed you answers.
HWB
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@Evanelpus: i never had the arrogance to think that i was elegible to find an airline job like that. Read my post again. I hope you can read between the lines and understand what i'm talking about.
@piloto2011: im asking you the question, when do you think it is time to throw the towel? Yes i could have continued another couple of years. But for what? Just for HOPING?? HOPING that someday something MIGHT come up. And then at the expense of what? Giving up my girlfriend, friends, social life etc just for a 737 somewhere in Asia? Sorry mate, but my life is going on.
@kelly hopper: i was also considering to do freelance. But basically, it needs to fit with your mainjob. It does not make sense for a biz operator if you are only 2 days available a month. Plus most of the time you need to pay the recurrent yourself.
@homer simpsons lovechild: you are right, i am not a spoilt brat. I had to work hard to get something, paid every penny myself. Never got anything for a present. But please, read my post again and i hope you understand what i was talking about. Yes, i know it is written with sarcasm, but i hope you understand the message.
It feels good to show the middlefinger to prof. aviation. Knowing that they can not "blackmail" you anymore for the sake of flying. Knowing that they can not claim you anymore. It feels really good to say: "No, i had it with you guys, find yourself another monkey, im gone!". I was feeling "free" at that time. What a relief.
@piloto2011: im asking you the question, when do you think it is time to throw the towel? Yes i could have continued another couple of years. But for what? Just for HOPING?? HOPING that someday something MIGHT come up. And then at the expense of what? Giving up my girlfriend, friends, social life etc just for a 737 somewhere in Asia? Sorry mate, but my life is going on.
@kelly hopper: i was also considering to do freelance. But basically, it needs to fit with your mainjob. It does not make sense for a biz operator if you are only 2 days available a month. Plus most of the time you need to pay the recurrent yourself.
@homer simpsons lovechild: you are right, i am not a spoilt brat. I had to work hard to get something, paid every penny myself. Never got anything for a present. But please, read my post again and i hope you understand what i was talking about. Yes, i know it is written with sarcasm, but i hope you understand the message.
It feels good to show the middlefinger to prof. aviation. Knowing that they can not "blackmail" you anymore for the sake of flying. Knowing that they can not claim you anymore. It feels really good to say: "No, i had it with you guys, find yourself another monkey, im gone!". I was feeling "free" at that time. What a relief.
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My 2 cents
Woody12,
Airlines are not very keen on bizjet guys these days, for different reasons.
This might be the core of your problem, and not the "industry as a whole".
You have had enough of biz flying, I can relate to that, it can get pretty tough at times (I have been there for the last 3.5 years and soon leaving).
On the other hand, people in other industries are not having it easy either nowadays, if they want to earn a decent living.
Long hours, goal oriented management, taking work home, emailing on your train home and into the night, racing for promotion and racing to keep your job in the hard times.
Not to mention people who are forced to go overseas to work in the oil fields or join the army, just to support their families in tough times.
Aviation is like any other business - they all want more from you for less, and us pilots may not be in the worst situation compared to others.
My advice - if a major airline is where you want to be, bite the bullet and do some Airbus time with Wizz or whoever, just to get yourself in the airline game.
If sitting at a desk is where you want to be - good luck but keep current, you never know...
BTW, if quality of life is what you are after, you may want to join a Turboprop outfit, such as Aer Arann or Loganair.
You'll never be too far from home, pay is OK.
You won't be the first to do it for those reasons.
Airlines are not very keen on bizjet guys these days, for different reasons.
This might be the core of your problem, and not the "industry as a whole".
You have had enough of biz flying, I can relate to that, it can get pretty tough at times (I have been there for the last 3.5 years and soon leaving).
On the other hand, people in other industries are not having it easy either nowadays, if they want to earn a decent living.
Long hours, goal oriented management, taking work home, emailing on your train home and into the night, racing for promotion and racing to keep your job in the hard times.
Not to mention people who are forced to go overseas to work in the oil fields or join the army, just to support their families in tough times.
Aviation is like any other business - they all want more from you for less, and us pilots may not be in the worst situation compared to others.
My advice - if a major airline is where you want to be, bite the bullet and do some Airbus time with Wizz or whoever, just to get yourself in the airline game.
If sitting at a desk is where you want to be - good luck but keep current, you never know...
BTW, if quality of life is what you are after, you may want to join a Turboprop outfit, such as Aer Arann or Loganair.
You'll never be too far from home, pay is OK.
You won't be the first to do it for those reasons.
Last edited by 60N; 25th Dec 2013 at 16:01.
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Almost all of my family and friends are not pilots, some making peanuts, some filling their bank accounts. Almost 90% of the time i spend with them is spent listening to them complain about work, colleagues, office politics, hours, commuting, pay, being taken for granted, being taken advantage of, lack of possibilities moving up the ladder, and upper management busting chops.
The way i see it, work is work, and being a pilot is not always or all about sporting aviators impressing women or busting a tower with Goose.
Its a job. Barrel only aimed at the pilots you say? As you know very well i am sure, if the aircraft is on the ground, the operator/company is not making money. So leave the IT or any other department on the ground, on the ground.
Its a job at the end of the day. Work. Same as any other type of job.
Perhaps the industry does suck more than any other, but it was only a matter of time before the folks on the ground copped on to how much pilots really love flying and being pilot. You can't blame them. They know very well that if you're going to be unhappy with a 14 hour flying day, there is someone els more than willing to fly an 18 hour day with a big smile on.
I am still surprised that pilots actually still get paid anything. The way i see it, training should be free, and flying should just be for people doing a flight or 2 a week while working a paying job. Then again, that won't actually work. Just another crazy thought on Pprune.
I do indeed feel like i am talking out of my a
, so i don't need anyone to tell me so.
Happy flying, be it a real aircraft, flight sim, or Pprune
The way i see it, work is work, and being a pilot is not always or all about sporting aviators impressing women or busting a tower with Goose.
Its a job. Barrel only aimed at the pilots you say? As you know very well i am sure, if the aircraft is on the ground, the operator/company is not making money. So leave the IT or any other department on the ground, on the ground.
Its a job at the end of the day. Work. Same as any other type of job.
Perhaps the industry does suck more than any other, but it was only a matter of time before the folks on the ground copped on to how much pilots really love flying and being pilot. You can't blame them. They know very well that if you're going to be unhappy with a 14 hour flying day, there is someone els more than willing to fly an 18 hour day with a big smile on.
I am still surprised that pilots actually still get paid anything. The way i see it, training should be free, and flying should just be for people doing a flight or 2 a week while working a paying job. Then again, that won't actually work. Just another crazy thought on Pprune.
I do indeed feel like i am talking out of my a
, so i don't need anyone to tell me so.Happy flying, be it a real aircraft, flight sim, or Pprune
Woody, welcome back from the dark side. You made the right decision, and won't regret it. I was in the same position and made the same choice. I just got back from taking a week off for Christmas, with less than 1 year at my current job. Try that at an airline! Oh yeah, I also doubled my salary. Yes, I do still dream about airplanes all the time, but I have no regrets.
Re flying part time, the only problem with that is that you won't fly enough to stay proficient. I don't like the feeling of fumbling around in the cockpit, trying to remember how things work. Much prefer flying every day and being able to do it in my sleep.
Re flying part time, the only problem with that is that you won't fly enough to stay proficient. I don't like the feeling of fumbling around in the cockpit, trying to remember how things work. Much prefer flying every day and being able to do it in my sleep.
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Same here. Left the last year and no remorse.
Of course, as human, we all have this nostalgic thoughts here and then, but it's mostly about the colleagues, but when I remember the crap around, the thoughts just go away.
as most would think, we do still love flying. I fly at my local club and the nice thing is, since as I stopped flying professionnally I do more Rec flights then before.
Personnally it was just the career and especially the LCC spirit. Not the job in itself but the rest...is....
as I prefer to focus on my family, Im happier now.
Many pilots think that, if we love flying we should do it as a job... which is completely wrong. I like go fishing, but I would never become a fisherman.
I love music and play guitar but would never want to become a musician and playing 8 hours a day for being a pro.
Passion does not mean job. Just be aware of that.
I am still interested in planes, more than ever, I keep coming on forum for being up to date, because I still keep my licence updated (we never know !!).
And I prefer to follow the industry decline from there than the inside
kidding...well...not really....
I run my own business (wine) and make contacts some of them are pilot, so sometimes I dream of having my own plane and fly where I want and use it for my job.
The good thing is I have more control about my lifestyle (chose where to live for exemple) and my schedule.
The things that made me quit were :
lack of control of many things, and seeing the down of the industry year after year, unstable job and unpredictable etc.
Of course, some people like the adventure, I have friends still in the cockpit and like to move and do not have family yet (though their g/fs complain more and more). They completely understood my decision as I understand completely why they keep doing the job.
Some people prefer a minimum of safety and stable situation.
Pilot is more about a lifestyle, it's more than a job. Nowayday, you better like the bohemian lifestyle to be a pilot.
Woody, I wish you the best of luck and enjoy your new life (im sure you will )
Of course, as human, we all have this nostalgic thoughts here and then, but it's mostly about the colleagues, but when I remember the crap around, the thoughts just go away.
as most would think, we do still love flying. I fly at my local club and the nice thing is, since as I stopped flying professionnally I do more Rec flights then before.
Personnally it was just the career and especially the LCC spirit. Not the job in itself but the rest...is....
as I prefer to focus on my family, Im happier now.
Many pilots think that, if we love flying we should do it as a job... which is completely wrong. I like go fishing, but I would never become a fisherman.
I love music and play guitar but would never want to become a musician and playing 8 hours a day for being a pro.
Passion does not mean job. Just be aware of that.
I am still interested in planes, more than ever, I keep coming on forum for being up to date, because I still keep my licence updated (we never know !!).
And I prefer to follow the industry decline from there than the inside
kidding...well...not really....I run my own business (wine) and make contacts some of them are pilot, so sometimes I dream of having my own plane and fly where I want and use it for my job.
The good thing is I have more control about my lifestyle (chose where to live for exemple) and my schedule.
The things that made me quit were :
lack of control of many things, and seeing the down of the industry year after year, unstable job and unpredictable etc.
Of course, some people like the adventure, I have friends still in the cockpit and like to move and do not have family yet (though their g/fs complain more and more). They completely understood my decision as I understand completely why they keep doing the job.
Some people prefer a minimum of safety and stable situation.
Pilot is more about a lifestyle, it's more than a job. Nowayday, you better like the bohemian lifestyle to be a pilot.
Woody, I wish you the best of luck and enjoy your new life (im sure you will
)
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This'll be the last few months for I also. I've been chasing the "dream" for the last 11 years, and even though i work for a very well know bizjet compnay in OPS it's time to move on and hang up the wings for good should nothing pop up before my license and IR lapse in a few months......
Back to the drawing board and maybe even go back to Uni!
Back to the drawing board and maybe even go back to Uni!
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There has been a lot said in this thread to reflect the disappointment and disillusionment of some within this industry.
Commercial Aviation has long been a cyclical industry exacerbated by external influence such a fuel shortage, war, terrorist acts and simply the financial climate. It is unlikely to change.
There are numerous threads within this forum that reflect the current situation and this thread is in danger of becoming a 'hamster wheel' so I am closing it.
Thanks to those who contributed.
HWB
Commercial Aviation has long been a cyclical industry exacerbated by external influence such a fuel shortage, war, terrorist acts and simply the financial climate. It is unlikely to change.
There are numerous threads within this forum that reflect the current situation and this thread is in danger of becoming a 'hamster wheel' so I am closing it.
Thanks to those who contributed.
HWB
