This is your teenage pilot speaking: 19-year-old is offered job at Ryanair

[contacttower118.2]

TeaTowel I really don't want to come across seemingly "attacking" you...that's not my intention at all.

I entirely sympathise with all of what you say, it isn't "fair" that someone who has worked and paid for flying training through that should get passed over for someone who just pays for an integrated course and gets a job at the end. Knowing the value of things is perhaps something that more airlines should look for in their pilots!

But as I said before telling oneself that all these people who do "pay" with bank of daddy's house are taking a risk akin to descending through minimums and will drown in debt just is not in step with reality.

It just sounds like you are using your (unfortunate?) position and experience to inform your own version of reality.

[TeaTowel]

TeaTowel I really don't want to come across seemingly "attacking" you...that's not my intention at all.

I know don't worry, not my intention either.

I entirely sympathise with all of what you say, it isn't "fair" that someone who has worked and paid for flying training through that should get passed over for someone who just pays for an integrated course and gets a job at the end.

No no no this isn't an integrated vs modular argument at all. People can pay what they want for whatever training they want. When it comes down to the interview and an equal or better candidate gets passed up due to how much money they can pay their employer is what I have a problem with.

It just sounds like you are using your (unfortunate?) position and experience to inform your own version of reality.

I'm in quiet a good position with sweet FA debt, no kids no mortgage!

If he heads to say BA he could see a short haul command by the time he is 30.

Unless BA ask him to pay for an Airbus rating which he can't afford. He will be the first on here hypocritically complaining about richer candidates getting ahead while he has experience. Charging people who SSTR for every subsequent type rating for the rest of their careers might be a good thing actually.

As for professions competing on merit alone I have loads of friends who are training to be doctors, lawyers etc and guess what? They have all taken out loans to PAY for their training

Training Not jobs. If a Doctor was asked to pay 30000 to join a hospital we can be sure it would be headline news in the media.

[contacttower118.2]

No no no this isn't an integrated vs modular argument at all. People can pay what they want for whatever training they want. When it comes down to the interview and an equal or better candidate gets passed up due to how much money they can pay their employer is what I have a problem with.

OK that we can agree on!

[contacttower118.2]

I don't really understand though why TeaTowel you were having a go at the Aer Lingus scheme considering your views on paying for type ratings/jobs.

I mean presumably this Ryanair guy paid about £80k for Oxford and then £30k or whatever it was for type rating and that got him a job. Not great you say. Fair enough, I think most people would agree that the paying bit, especially the last £30k is not good.

The Aer Lingus scheme though (if I have understood correctly) is only asking for £25k up front with another £25k out of salary! By modern standards that is actually a very good deal, a lot better than paying £90k to easy for an MPL!

Yet you attack Aer Lingus also.

[tugga_5]

Everyone seems to be talking about his "loan re-payments". How do we even know he has a loan to re-pay? For all we know someone in his family has funded his training and he has no debt!

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

He's there, you're not. Deal with it.

FR might not be the best airline to work for, but not the worst either.

It's not for you to judge him on PPRuNe.

[Matt7504]

I read the article when I woke up this morning and then saw the thread here just now, I fancied a laugh so clicked on it it to read the jealous and speculating comment.
At the end of the day he is 19, so I imagine had very generous parents who were willing to put him through flying school (Probably started at OAA at 17 or early 18) and he has very fortunately ended up with a job very quickly (I'm pretty jealous myself, but fair play). My point is though, there is no point crying over it and such. He will have proven himself and fulfilled the job criteria just like anyone else, and I for one say that at 19 that is really impressive and should get him off to a flying head start with his career. So good luck to him!

[TeaTowel]

The Aer Lingus scheme

The problem with that scheme is not the payment, last time it was a job for the boys and this time once again they are excluding people who have put effort into going flying getting atpl's etc and looking elsewhere. It will be a bunch of people who and I quote:

Ya I never really thought about flying tbh but I just saw the ad in the paper one day and gave it a whirl. Studied some basic flying stuff for a couple of days and came up with some bull**** about always wanting to fly and they lapped it up

Have SSTR's now become so prevalent that any attempt to call it out on ethical and moral grounds are shot down?

To all of ye who have done it can I ask you this: Will you do it again and again for each subsequent type? If I was in HR it would go like this:

Well Mr. Jenkins I see you paid for your type rating at your last airline. You can either pay us 60000 for a 777 rating or **** off.

They're like pay drivers in F1, Gutierrez Maldonado etc, adequately good enough to qualify for a super Licence, but the only reason they are on the grid is because they have money.

[TeaTowel]

Extremely interesting article in this months Air International that I got today.

Pilot debt, a safety issue?

By Dr. Simon Bennett
Director Civil Safety and Security unit, University of Leicester.

Some quotes:

My 2010-2011 British Airline Pilots Association(BALPA) funded research confirmed indebtedness to be a problem for pilots. The following statement is typical: "I accrued training costs of £118000 (ab-initio and two conversion courses) current debt left after repaying for ten years is £62000. Monthly repayments to the bank are £1050. About five years to go."

Asked to comment on the quality of First Officers one Captain said: "They seem to be selected more on...their willingness to take on huge debt then on their suitability for...command. They routinely seem to be in such dire financial situation that stress is only a matter of time." Having taken on huge debt, mediocre remuneration makes it hard for pilots to make ends meet.

Debt is a stressor. It limits options and life chances and circumscribes choice and geographical mobility. This is why newly qualified pilots find themselves commuting long distances on a daily basis or living in poor-quality, overcrowded accommodation while on duty.

Pilots careerism and vocationalism is exploited by the airlines who know that most pilots will accept base moves. Only if regulators reference the realities of of pilots' lifestyles can they deliver intended safety margins.

Are politicians, regulators and airlines in denial? Yes they are. This can only end badly.

So to sum up from me:

I will not say to this chap: "Well done! Jolly good show! You can call yourself a pilot!

Just like the airlines, he and people like him are as much to blame.

Buy the mag and read the full article. It is a word of warning to all you wannabes out there who think massive loans are the way to go.