OK no pilot. Then what??

[Tacitus]

There is a post here about RYR and "older" pilots. I think it should be a must read for anyone who is about to commence training after the age of 30.

But i would like to ask, career wise, is it so bad to fly turboprops untill you retire?

So say i commence my modular training (no need for debt) and end up afterwards (flying GA in between) at a company that operates turboprops (dont mind when) will i be able to have a decent salary untill i retire? (pilots, knock wood, retire at 65 right?). When i say decent it means that i will be able to pay for rent and later on support my kids to university.

I am asking this because as i am not a professional pilot i see that everyone wants to fly jets. Is that big the diference in terms of salary from the turboprops?

[redsnail]

I am asking this because as i am not a professional pilot i see that everyone wants to fly jets. Is that big the diference in terms of salary from the turboprops?

Sadly, yes.

[lightning bird]

This forum can make you feel like you’re just on the right side of alive even at around 30 yrs, they will come in droves to tell you it is not the career you imagined, others to tell you it is all worth it in the end. Like every other aspect of existence, love to moan, love to loath, love to love...it’s not like the good old days, you’re better off doing something else, if you love flying go for it.
If you think aviation is the only career taking a battering during these difficult economic times, well you would be deluded. I’ve seen friends and family given forced redundancy in other if even more troubled sectors, as I’m sure many posting on this have! If you’re still lucky to have a job and can afford a few flying lessons and courses, without sacrificing all, consider yourself fortunate. Only you (and yes there is good info on this forum that can assist you), can make that decisive decision, to keep the passion alive, with limited prospects for the foreseeable future, but hey if there is a light at the end of the tunnel you will be in with a chance!

[Piloto2011]

Here's my 10 cents worth:

It is not easy to get into this business. Unless you know the right people it will require a lot of hard work, commitment and discipline from you, let alone the financial risk.

While I agree with people saying most of the 737/320 jobs are reserved for OAA or CTC grads I firmly believe there are ways, many ways, around it. These days CTC are charging 90,000 euro for their course. Plus a possible type rating. It's just nuts. That said, a great many out there forget that maintaining your license and ratings and skills, aaand attending interviews, for which you will have to prepare for adequately, will cost you a whole lot more. Flying schools will not tell you this though.

It's been mentioned modular and integrated cost the same. Wrong. Modular can be done for half if not even less.

A complete FAA Com SE IR package can be done for some $30,000. There's an Asian company taking on 250h gals and guys from western countries to fly their single turbines as FOs. While I have to admit having a few hours will help you get an interview there are many getting in without hours. So, with an investment of some 30 grand US$ you can be already on your way earning a living with flying. Of course should you want to move up from there, especially in Europe, you'll have to sit your JAR exams and convert your license at some point, which will cost you a little more. But no further loans required with more experience and greater skills.

PPL, when taken the glider/ motor glider pilot route can be obtained for much less than schools charge. Needless to mention, your hand flying will be to a muuuuch better standard. Powered flight hours can then be logged cheaply in your own aircraft. There's shares in planes available all over the place. You may take friends and family up for a ride and even charge them for half the cost of that flight. If not promoted publicly all legal. In other words, be creative about your training and do not necessarily aim at the quick shot. Remember, the longer you have been in the industry the more people you will meet, people that may help you point you in the right direction.

MCC: 500h with one of the UK air taxi operators and the UK CAA will grant you a MCC certificate.

Personally, I have done all against the odds and many here had been advocated against: modular, trained all over the place, converted, Spanish IR, no MCC. Never had inside help. Yet, never been without a flying job right after school, sitting at well over 1,000 hours now, most of which PIC, and have gradually moved up the ladder (now flying turbine).

It's not easy but in my view the best job ever! Well worth it.

Good luck!

[plikee]

Piloto2011 i really appreciate your humility you have a pilot job but you understand what every newbie pilot goes under nowadays after finish his training . Many people here don't, unfortunately .

Good luck for your career

[Wirbelsturm]

you understand what every newbie pilot goes under nowadays after finish his training . Many people here don't, unfortunately .

I think you will find that many here certainly understand, possibly better than you do yourself. Whilst entry to flying was different a few decades back the job opportunities were far less thus the competition was far harder for the fewer jobs. Overall I would say the difficulty was still greater years ago as the aircraft were alot more tircky/finicky/difficult to fly! Just my opinion though.

As to advice, I would be wary of comments as there are many on ******* who are actively involved in major airlines, jet or turbo or otherwise, and many actively involved in recruitment. ******* provides an interesting insight into the impatience of many junior pilots when trying to break into a difficult market.

With respect to the current job situation, I have stated before that the CAA/Government/BALPA need to get actively involved in setting minimum standards that employers must meet when recruiting junior pilots. Whilst there is a supply of 'wannabees' who are willing to work for peanuts the airlines will exploit them to the detriment of more experienced pilots. Not only does this water down the experience level in the front it also increases the work load of those constantly flying with junior, inexperienced co-pilots, often many of whom have purchased 'block hours' and thus will never fully be up to speed with company SOP's.

This is, in all honesty, not the fault of the job seeker, they are just doing whatever is needed to try and gain that elusive first job. It is the lack of strict regulation that allows the exploitation of a workforce for the hope of better T's & C's up the ladder. Sadly the legs of the ladder are being chopped off at the bottom bring the top ever lower.

A sad reality check.

[plikee]

I think you will find that many here certainly understand, possibly better than you do yourself. Whilst entry to flying was different a few decades back the job opportunities were far less thus the competition was far harder for the fewer jobs. Overall I would say the difficulty was still greater years ago as the aircraft were alot more tircky/finicky/difficult to fly! Just my opinion though.

As to advice, I would be wary of comments as there are many on ******* who are actively involved in major airlines, jet or turbo or otherwise, and many actively involved in recruitment. ******* provides an interesting insight into the impatience of many junior pilots when trying to break into a difficult market.

Sorry, I didn't want to be 'disrespectful' nor said this to offend anyone. I partly agree with you . I really believe it was harder some years back as you said, the job opportunities were not so big as they are today . But, nowadays, there are no jobs, or just a few around the globe, that people who finished their training meet the minimum requirements - I have a job seeker website where there are many airliners' details out of date. Those, 4 or 5 years back, asked only for the minimums of the minimums, like 200TT with ME/IR MCC . I am not stating that everyone who had only this, applied a had a job. Many didn't, other had to hard work for it . Today, I see a job offer but most of them (not to say all), I don't meet the requirements.
Last month saw a jump pilot job - 1000TT with SET . Seriously?

I finished my training a few moths back, I'm young and I know it will be hard to have a pilot job in a near future but I am expecting that, I have a job (non-aviation) and I'll keep it until I get something as a pilot - believe me, I am patient but thank you your advice . As I said, not here to offend anyone

[Wirbelsturm]

No problem, I didn't mean to say you offended anyone, I just wanted to point out that many recruiters etc.. from many airlines look at this site. If you know what I mean.

[lightning bird]

You apologised twice for something you didn’t do, yes I’m all up for intertwining , but if it means just saying yes sir, then no thanks!

[Superpilot]

Wirbelsturm speaks words of wisdom though he may not agree with what I'm about to say. It’s important you know what I'm about to say as it’s the second biggest road block you will face in your quest for a job.

The formula for a pilot who wishes to become better at his/her job is simple: Read the books; understand the theory; practice it regularly and take advice from instructors and senior guys regarding aircraft handling. This formula has worked for me. However, I find myself in an industry full of obnoxious and talentless egotistic jerks who are given opportunity after opportunity to correct their inability to pilot planes they have already been flying for years. It makes you wonder, how any of them got the job. Then you come to learn that the aviation industry actually cares very little for aptitude and fair opportunity. If a total jerk is occupying a position of recruitment then you can bet that total jerks (his friends) will take up most positions. Aka The buddy network. In many airlines this is the unofficial rule of law.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I've been flying for ten years, doing it for a living for seven and now fly as a turboprop Captain. I consider myself to be lucky and am not bitter, but looking at in an objective way, if I was Tacitus, no way would I get involved in flying. My reasons are

-vast escalation in training costs as you need to be training with the likes of CTC and then still get charged for a type rating.
-vast decreases in salaries as desperate newbies queue up to earn peanuts or even pay to do jobs that were once well paid jobs. In this game there is always somebody willing to undercut you!
-no job security. Dock labour style contracts at some of Europes largest airlines. Easy for them to downsize.
-little sense of career progression. Turboprops, pistons etc are not a good way to get into a jet anymore and why bother anyway. Most of these jet jobs are badly paid anyway.
-yes, there are guys still earning a lot of money but management have a plan to make sure you never earn that kind of money.
-the threat of overly liberal flight time limitations being imposed making your life hell.
-the threat of impending economic collapse in Europe, oil shocks, war etc
-where do you see this industry in five years?

To me, it is a race to the bottom and will take a major accident to change things for the better. For those with parents with fat wallets, willing to gamble their money on their offspring and prop them up while they are working low income flying jobs for the next ? years (if they are lucky) it might still be viable. But for you Tacitus, you could end up 40+ and unemployed or in a poorly paid flying job. "Flying for food" will get very old, very soon I'm afraid.

Have you considered careers in ATC or Helicopters?

[Dogfactory]

Just cut the crap everybody! Every industry is facing an unemployment issue, this doesn't mean people should stop trying to get the jobs they want. But maybe you guys all want the immigrants to bake pizzas while you grab the splendid highly paid jobs all for yourself. Frankly, you all sound like little who don't trust their own professionality and are afraid that someone will come and steal your wife and belongings. Pilots are certainly highly skilled but maybe they are not really professional at what they are doing. No wonder MCC was introduced.

[fwjc]

Job (in)security

It's quite funny reading the last few posts about the obvious employment insecurities experienced across commercial aviation. It's funny because I am currently working in the public sector (yes, that's the one that's supposed to be the most secure, job for life type scenario). The reason I started on the modular route training is because they put us all at risk, made many staff redundant and while I've survived a couple of rounds of redundancies, I'm not confident in the future. I decided to at least try to make what I love pay the bills.

With respect to those who say that for them it's just a job that pays for the next skiing holiday, and they'd get out of it if they could, most of the commercial chaps I met as a young PPL said the same thing and that put me off. I didn't want to lose my love of flying. And then I met the other side - peope who rush home after doing Malaga and back to pull out their little taildragger for a leisurely bimble, or who maintain their instructors rating and spend most of their rest days instructing or doing renewals - not for the money, but because they love flying. I guess this breed is less common than the disillusioned sky-bus drivers, but I hope to stay in the rare breed camp.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I guess this breed is less common than the disillusioned sky-bus drivers, but I hope to stay in the rare breed camp.

Yes, the disillusioned sky-bus drivers are far more common these days. I don't think that there are many pilots out there who have the money to go GA flying in their own aircraft. The ones that I know who instruct do it to top up their low earnings and give themselves a fall back in case they lose their job. My employer, like most others works me to the maximum limitations of the flight time limitations. Sometimes I have to pull up in motorway services and sleep on my way home because I am so shattered. Going flying after work? No chance.

I've worked in other industries too and have had the boot from a few jobs and know about insecurity. In those jobs though, my skills were transferable and I found better employment. With flying though, the skills are not transferable and the chances of another flying job are very low.

A lot of guys on here seem to think that the "senior at BA" lifestyle is still realistic for them. Forget it, it's not going to happen, management will see to that.

Yes there are worse jobs out there by far and if you didn't have to spend vast sums of money this career would still be viable. But of course, you DO have to spend a lot of money to even have a chance in this industry.

[Wirbelsturm]

If a total jerk is occupying a position of recruitment then you can bet that total jerks (his friends) will take up most positions. Aka The buddy network. In many airlines this is the unofficial rule of law.

These people exist in all walks of life. Sadly the biggest downfall of the 'meritocracy' system is who gets to decide who is good enough? Are you in the 'clique'? At least a 'seniority' system removes this ambiguity and gives everyone a chance.

A system of recruiting that involves both pilots and HR has a more even approach albeit not perfect. Always remember the aviation industry from a piloting perspective is not very big and a bad name/reputation travels very quickly! Unfortunately you will find large and difficult egos in both seats with varying levels of ability/knowledge. Thus is the chameleonic nature of our profession.

disillusioned sky-bus drivers

I love flying small light aircraft to destinations I choose on days I choose when I choose. The freedom it offers is a breath of fresh air and the handling skills different. I still maintain my helicopter licence for exactly this reason. Flying for a job where you are time constrained, route constrained and company constrained in difficult environments for long periods is a touch different from you 'tail draggers' that you wish to remain a part of. You probably don't go 'into the office' for fun, many commercial pilots look at private flying in the same way, a 'busmans holiday'.

As I've stated before, I fly commercial airlines to be adequately recompensed for my experience. Not for fun. You don't get much 'fun' out of a procedural IFR widebody jet flight. Not 'disillusioned' just another day at the office.

If the constant downward spiral of the T's & C's doesn't halt and the extreme pressures on Flight Time limitations doesn't relent then I would never recommend this profession to my kids. And this after being in professional aviation for 26 years now. It, in it's current form, isn't worth it for beginners and until the airlines realise that no one is going to stump up the cash for licences they will not stop exploiting those who chase the dream. Possibly to the detriment of everyone.