OAA, CTC, CABAIR Which Integrated Course
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Modular vs Integrated has been covered ad infinitum but:
I cannot think of another example, for anything, where the all inclusive package deal that has everything stripped to the bare minimum can cost more.
Integrated is the equivalent of the factory line product - each student supposedly identical and making the minimum standard.
Modular (when completed continuously and with the CPL and IR through the same school) is the equivalent of a hand made product. Production can be slowed down or speed up as appropriate for each individual dependant of which parts they are struggling with and which parts they breeze through. You get 25% more flying time included as standard. A training record can be provided in the same way as the integrated course.
Where schools like Oxford provide both modular and integrated using the same syllabus and instructors, only with more flying time for the modular course, how can anyone argue that the modular guys are not as good a product?
Any preference by airlines for integrated graduates exists purely as a business arrangement between the schools and airlines - so that the schools can make more money. The only exception is when a modular student has an untraceable training record (due to it taking place over a long time with many different schools - something that hardly anyone does).
The bitterness about this subject, the self funded type ratings and pay to fly is due to the sheer desperation felt by so many who have sunk so much time and money into pursuing a career that for the majority is hopeless. As other more desperate people try to jump the queue at any expense we all bicker and snap at each other.
We are like rats, fighting and climbing on top of each other trying to escape a sinking ship. To anyone who wants to ignore the warnings and chuck all their money away to join us in this cr@ppy situation, you will be making it slightly more hopeless but what's the difference between hopeless and more hopeless? Remember once the money is spent, it's gone. There is no going back and if you can't use that little blue book to get a paid flying job, it is then worthless for any other job. How long do you keep chucking good money after bad to keep it current before you resign yourself to another career (which may need it's own qualifications)? If there is a loan it will take many years of hard work in a well paid job to pay off and all for nothing.
It's depressing but no one should be making such important decisions with their eyes shut. The fact is that of the thousands coming out of training each year only a very small number are 'lucky' enough to get the chance to blow another £30K to work for Easyjet or Ryanair on a contract with no job security.
I cannot think of another example, for anything, where the all inclusive package deal that has everything stripped to the bare minimum can cost more.
Integrated is the equivalent of the factory line product - each student supposedly identical and making the minimum standard.
Modular (when completed continuously and with the CPL and IR through the same school) is the equivalent of a hand made product. Production can be slowed down or speed up as appropriate for each individual dependant of which parts they are struggling with and which parts they breeze through. You get 25% more flying time included as standard. A training record can be provided in the same way as the integrated course.
Where schools like Oxford provide both modular and integrated using the same syllabus and instructors, only with more flying time for the modular course, how can anyone argue that the modular guys are not as good a product?
Any preference by airlines for integrated graduates exists purely as a business arrangement between the schools and airlines - so that the schools can make more money. The only exception is when a modular student has an untraceable training record (due to it taking place over a long time with many different schools - something that hardly anyone does).
The bitterness about this subject, the self funded type ratings and pay to fly is due to the sheer desperation felt by so many who have sunk so much time and money into pursuing a career that for the majority is hopeless. As other more desperate people try to jump the queue at any expense we all bicker and snap at each other.
We are like rats, fighting and climbing on top of each other trying to escape a sinking ship. To anyone who wants to ignore the warnings and chuck all their money away to join us in this cr@ppy situation, you will be making it slightly more hopeless but what's the difference between hopeless and more hopeless? Remember once the money is spent, it's gone. There is no going back and if you can't use that little blue book to get a paid flying job, it is then worthless for any other job. How long do you keep chucking good money after bad to keep it current before you resign yourself to another career (which may need it's own qualifications)? If there is a loan it will take many years of hard work in a well paid job to pay off and all for nothing.
It's depressing but no one should be making such important decisions with their eyes shut. The fact is that of the thousands coming out of training each year only a very small number are 'lucky' enough to get the chance to blow another £30K to work for Easyjet or Ryanair on a contract with no job security.
Last edited by Pelikanpete; 13th Feb 2011 at 13:48.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Modular can be done just as fast as integrated.
It took me exactly 24 months from my PPL skill test to my IR test, and I waisted at least 6 months mucking about with where and how to do my ATPL's, and I lost about 2 months due to bad weather to complete my IR. So I could have done all in 14 months, add to that I had a wife, 6 month old baby and a business to run, so was not able to study full time all the time!
By the way, all first time passes in all, and averages 95% on my ATPL's, so it is possible to do modular fast, and it cost me in total around £29.000 for CPL/IR/ME and ATPL's.
I had some hours from before. Went few hours over, due to all the above circumstances, but all comes down to your own dedication and hard work.
With the money I saved, I could pay my own TR, while I see loads of Oxford guys now spending top money on their course and then pay TR at Ryan air, it will cost you a fortune in the end, I could do the same, for half the price.
It took me exactly 24 months from my PPL skill test to my IR test, and I waisted at least 6 months mucking about with where and how to do my ATPL's, and I lost about 2 months due to bad weather to complete my IR. So I could have done all in 14 months, add to that I had a wife, 6 month old baby and a business to run, so was not able to study full time all the time!
By the way, all first time passes in all, and averages 95% on my ATPL's, so it is possible to do modular fast, and it cost me in total around £29.000 for CPL/IR/ME and ATPL's.
I had some hours from before. Went few hours over, due to all the above circumstances, but all comes down to your own dedication and hard work.
With the money I saved, I could pay my own TR, while I see loads of Oxford guys now spending top money on their course and then pay TR at Ryan air, it will cost you a fortune in the end, I could do the same, for half the price.
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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BoeingDreamer - how long ago did you do your course and where did you do it.
£29,000 seems amazingly cheap - with that sort of saving, if possible now modular is the obvious choice, just treating it like a full time job.
£29,000 seems amazingly cheap - with that sort of saving, if possible now modular is the obvious choice, just treating it like a full time job.
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Integrated is the equivalent of the factory line product - each student supposedly identical and making the minimum standard.
In an industry where standard operating procedures form the backbone of the flight operations training regime, as well as the day to day operational requirements, this type of airline orientated training is often seen as a necessary pre-requisite in the transistion of very low houred candidates into a cadet airline structure.
30 years ago you would see a few low houred pilots entering airline operations. These candidates came from a small number of approved, full time training establishments (Hamble for BEA,BOAC,BA, Perth, Oxford etc.) The other "self improver" candidates would require significantly greater experience (often thousands of hours) gained through that improvement path. Indeed outside of the "approved" structure the minimum hour requirement for a CPL was 700 hours.
The modular option was introduced at the same time as various national anomolies were removed from the UK licensing system. However this didn't suddenly mean that a CPL and 200 hours was a passport into an airline job. In many respects the old "approved" system is still in existence, whereby the integrated training that a few establishments provide is used as a seamless integration path into a number of airlines. It is something those airlines have a control and input with. It provides a cadet structure that they consider "low risk" because of their experience and relationship with those training providers.
Beyond that, the CPL/IR and 200 hours should be viewed as an aerial work licence that provides the starting point for a long and normally arduous path to those end goals. To view it as anything else, is ambitious.
The situation hasn't been helped (or perhaps it has depending on your point of view,) by one or two airlines, whose CEO's have vocally declared a desire to kill the first officers role completely, or replace them with Cabin crew etc. They are not allowed to do this, so in the meantime they have been happy to adopt the next best thing, and have hopefull candidates pay for their own very expensive training, with the hope that they they can occupy the seat in the role, at whatever terms and conditions those companies stipulate. Even then these opportunities are few and far between and fraught with significant risks for the aspirants.
Apart from a few individuals using recognised and mentored training regimes, 200 hours has never been a realistic level of experience for this type of work. It wasn't 30 years ago, and it still isn't today. The cocktail of isolated pockets of corporate naivity and greed, mixed with a large number of unrealistic aspirants is inevitably going to result in a lot of disappointment.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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CharlieFly- I just completed my IR now in January 2011, so fresh!
A basic break down:
ATPL's at London Met £2700 + train ticket. (think £2900 now, but good value for money)
CPL around £8000
ME £2700
IR £15.000
This does not include hour building, you can get UK hours for £80 I think. I already had hours from previous life!
And I know of guys who did it for less, on those prices, if you do full time modular I should be able to save around £3000 -£4500, on CPL and IR, but does depend on luck with weather, tests etc. I did not have the luxury to just do flight training, but worked out pretty well ok. Know of guys who did the courses in more or less minimum hours.
A basic break down:
ATPL's at London Met £2700 + train ticket. (think £2900 now, but good value for money)
CPL around £8000
ME £2700
IR £15.000
This does not include hour building, you can get UK hours for £80 I think. I already had hours from previous life!
And I know of guys who did it for less, on those prices, if you do full time modular I should be able to save around £3000 -£4500, on CPL and IR, but does depend on luck with weather, tests etc. I did not have the luxury to just do flight training, but worked out pretty well ok. Know of guys who did the courses in more or less minimum hours.
