Infinte Type Rated Pilots it seems!!

[bokboy22]

So be it for the wannabies who take the easy route. If the 1500 hour rule is there with 500 mutl pic, and legislation preventing pay to fly or buying your way in, T's and C's recover, industry returns to normal with regards to hiring.

Heres a thought, instead of todays lazy gits just sitting on their arse in Europe, how about doing instructor ratings, going to Aus, Africa, NZ, US, Canada and do some bush flying, floats, mail charter, game reserve flying and getting experience, enjoy it and experience life.

I see to many youngsters today who bacause they happen to live close to Luton for example think it is great, I will pay to fly/ buy a type rating with Easy so Im based at home and basically dont have to get of my arse.

A little bit of work ethic never hurt anybody. Low and behold a 200 hour guy may have to fly a seneca before he gets into his shiny new 737-800 with winglets and all, oh no, we cant have that now!!

The aviation industry is in the worst shape of it's life at present, there is no denying that

[darkroomsource]

Darkroom - the irrefutable fact of the matter is, most of the flying public couldn't give a rats arse about who sits in the flight-deck.

And that's obvious by the US congress passing laws requiring minimum flight times.

Flying is routine and with the locked door policy, Jo Public almost never sees who (or how old) the 2 people up front are. The first time any consideration will be given is when it is evident that the proverbial poo is hitting the fan - and that just (almost) never ever happens.

This is the crux of the matter.
And it's not really what I or any other pax care, but it's what the lawyers and insurance agents say that matters.

So it's all well and good for you and others to sit in your armchair and pontificate about why YOU would never hire such people into YOUR airline - the the fact remains, YOU are not running an airline. So your opinion in fact counts for sod all. It is just that, an opinion like anyone else's. You are entitled to it and so is anyone else.

Thanks for allowing me to have an opinion.
I was trying to point out, to obviously some very closed minded people, that a company is not going to hire people with just a few years training and experience to put in charge of high-profile expensive projects or activities if they can, in any way, get more experienced individuals.

As a side note - how many serious incidents / accidents have occurred with inexperienced newbies (lets say less than 3000 hours using your yardstick - which incidentally could be 8-10 years experience in my sector of the industry) compared to the old timers at the controls?

Here, you've hanged yourself. I guess you've not been paying attention to the news for the past 2 or 3 years.

Just what percentage of Darkroom's tiny 2600 hours would have been racked up at FL350+ for over 8 hour sectors with the autopilot doing the work - gosh you really learn your trade in the cruise don't you???? Total volume of hours is not in itself the only way of measuring experience.

Again, this is not experience FLYING THE PLANE, it's experience living, dealing with situations that are OUTSIDE the norm. It's being responsible, it's dealing with management, and all the junk. Pilots of big-iron are NOT paid to fly the plane. They're paid to deal with emergencies. And if their total experience is 250 hours before they started flying computers, then they have NO experience dealing with emergencies, or even hand flying the plane if it's just a simple autopilot failure - recently this happened in case you haven't been paying attentiong (again).

Without diving into the details, seems to me that the likes of American, Delta, United etc etc etc have lost more hulls than Ryanair and EasyJet (and those two companies complete a HUGE number of sectors per year combined) - clearly it hasn't been many in recent years, perhaps technology does have an impact?

Try reading or listening to the news.

[3bars]

VJW is entitled to an opinion... and I for one have to agree with him.

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe and he informs me that flying with a 200 hour cadet is no different than flying with a guy with 2000 hours experience on light aircraft.

[shaun ryder]

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe and he informs me that flying with a 200 hour cadet is no different than flying with a guy with 2000 hours experience on light aircraft.

He says with a swagger.

Obviously this must be correct then. Just to clarify (does this include flying single pilot ops in light twins?), they are also light aircraft too.

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe

How do you come to this conclusion I wonder?

Who is feeding you this rubbish, the mind boggles?

3bars

Let me guess?

Another Ryanair hotshot perhaps?

[Brakefire]

As a matter of interest, are there any 200 hour heros in LCC's that actually do believe experience counts?:

[hollingworthp]

Darkroomsource

Well I admit - I am not going on hard facts just what springs to mind on recent accidents. Obviously there is Colgan, but when you look a bit deeper it gets a bit more interesting.

I am actually curious enough to look into some of the basics of the recent accidents as there does seem to be a popular opinion that there is a safety risk of low time pilots in airliners combined with high workloads, max duty, minimum risk etc. And I would not argue that point. My main issue is the 2600 hours being practically novice.

As I happen to be sitting at home waiting for more flights, I will dig into the details of the more recent accidents on this NTSB table - but even a cursory glance seems to reveal a large number of legacies (obviously discounting 9/11). I'll come back to the thread with what I find.

In the meantime - a kneejerk vote-winning reaction from the US political system was pretty much guaranteed reaction to Colgan. Fortunately in the US there is a substantial GA market to allow pilots to cut their teeth while remaining on the same continent as their family. Not so in Europe (for sure) and probably the rest of the world (only based on my view and not fact).

Thanks for allowing me to have an opinion.
I was trying to point out, to obviously some very closed minded people, that a company is not going to hire people with just a few years training and experience to put in charge of high-profile expensive projects or activities if they can, in any way, get more experienced individuals.

In an ideal world this would be true - but at the end of the day, it is the bottom line that counts at many companies, and if they can put bums on the front two seats for the least possible payroll while meeting the requirements, then they will. Not saying they will go for legal minimums of experience - just that they will try to pay as little as possible for that experience.

[darkroomsource]

at the end of the day, it is the bottom line that counts at many companies, and if they can put bums on the front two seats for the least possible payroll while meeting the requirements, then they will. Not saying they will go for legal minimums of experience - just that they will try to pay as little as possible for that experience.

And hence the ENTIRE DISCUSSION.
If you have 2600 hours, that is not nothing, but it is not 15,000 hours. And there ARE pilots with 15,000 hours who are willing to work for less than they are actually worth. And there will ALWAYS be pilots willing to work for less than they are worth.
Of course there are. If there was another "profession" that made you feel as good doing it, there would be a shortage of positions in that profession also. Especially one that allows people with less than a 4-year degree's worth of experience to be in that profession.
If you work in another profession, let's take IT for example, you probably have to have a 4-year degree (for some old-timers this is not the case, but for anyone getting into it in the last 15-20 years, a 4-year degree is a minimum, many now are entering with masters and phds), and with just a degree, you'd start as an entry level programmer, working with a senior programmer. You wouldn't start out as the senior Oracle database administrator...
But, in the aviation profession, particularly about 2-4 years ago, we had many many "under-qualified" pilots being placed because there was an extreme shortage of pilots. However that blip is gone, and we're back to the way it was before. And before that blip, the average pilot either went from the air force to a civilian jet, or instructed for 2-5 years, then local/135 or maybe regional for 5-10 years, then national, having 10-15 years experience. And converting that into hours, you see that 2600 is what most instructors had for the previous 4-5 decades, excluding 2-3 years ago.

[3bars]

Pull your neck in Shaun... people are entitled to their own opinions whether you agree or not.

The experienced captain I refer to has worked for more years commercially than any other pilot in Europe, confirmed by the Aviation Authorities, so I'd consider him a Mecca of Information.

No, I've never worked for Ryanair.... but do their A/C not deserve to be in the sky as much as BA's, or any other company???

I bet you're great fun on a day out

[SinglePilotCaptain]

If you pay for a girl to sleep with you...don't tell us you seduced her..

Buying a seat in a plane, and told to wear a uniform isn't flying....there's more to being a pilot then looking out the window and going 'oh wow, this is cool'

[Brakefire]

3 Bar, Shaun is also entitled to his opinion which seems to anger you.

It is funny though how all the very experienced pilots on this site seem to collectively agree with each other and not think too much of the RYR 200 hour hero's buying their way in.

[3bars]

I've no problem with Shaun expressing an opinion, but his reply suggests that he is not open to any other opinion but his own
I am not too keen on guys paying for type ratings either, but Ryanair is there, they've changed things ( and not for the better ) and if that's what it takes to get a job these days, good luck to them. Remember, in years gone bye, it was frowned upon for pilots to pay to obtain a CPL!
We've got to move with the times..... but our day will come ( i hope )

[captainsuperstorm]

there is no way for a 200h pilot to get a job or build time.

P2F is not the solution, and there is no job on light aircraft and not many open position for flight instructors, light jets,...

I mean this market is pretty much 99.99% stuck and getting a paid job is part of the past.

[darkroomsource]

Welcome to the real world.

[Sciolistes]

I fly with one of the most experienced captains in Europe and he informs me that flying with a 200 hour cadet is no different than flying with a guy with 2000 hours experience on light aircraft.

So we have people who don't value experience because the most experienced pilots in Europe say so

[captainsuperstorm]

experience doesnt count because a copilot with 3000h or 200h on the bus do the same task, same SOP, same call out,...

the planes have changed. it s all computerized, and any newbie can learn to program a FMGC in a few hours.

after take off, press A/P, and the plane turn, climb, and descent by itself. it reduces its speed when adding flaps, and all you do is to put the gear down.

with cat 3B, no need to land manually.land in zero vis.

this is why a experimented pilot is not required nowadays.

once you got your 500h, you are out. thats the business.!!!

a shocking reality in fact, but this is how airlines make money.by adding pennies, they make big mega bucks,... time where copilots were paid is over.

[darkroomsource]

experience doesnt count because a copilot with 3000h or 200h on the bus do the same task

It's not about flying the airplane.
If it was about flying the airplane there wouldn't be pilots at all. It would be entirely computerized.

It's about what to do when the airplane isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

And for that, the companies, the insurance companies, and the paying public, want to have someone in front who has seen a few situations, has lived a little, and won't panic when something goes wrong.

[captainsuperstorm]

want to have someone in front who has seen a few situations, has lived a little, and won't panic when something goes wrong.

wrong, people dont give a damn of you or your life experience. do you think they ask me when they enter my cockpit, how many hours I have, if I have slept.
they give a damn about us. all they want is fly for cheap. if a ticket is less 1 euro less, they change airline.
plus nothing go wrong on my plane , you have 1 chance on 1 million to have engine out, and who care about engine out, all you do is to come back to land and call for ecam action.

in fact I am getting out of my airline soon, get back flying real planes and make real money without all the bullcrap of these airlines technocrats.

I let my place to the rich dreamers ...have fun flying 6 legs a day for P2F!

[Sciolistes]

experience doesnt count because a copilot with 3000h or 200h on the bus do the same task, same SOP, same call out,...

But not the same SA, knowledge, capacity, CRM, tact, confidence, tolerance and timely assertiveness - and that is when everything is working properly.

Can anybody really say that their competancy is same with a few thousand hours compared to their first year?

Look at two Ryanair incidents that I am sure would ot have happened with an experienced F/O, the Captain incapacitation in Italy and the GPWS incident over Cork.

[Brakefire]

Pilots are paid for what they know, not what they do. It is when it has all gone wrong is where you earn your money.

Experience is very important, that is exactly why you dont automatically become a captain. Anybody who believes experience does not count is an idiot. It is about stick and rudder skills, knowing your aircraft and most importantly being able to recognise a problem and be able to make the right decision.

The flying public do care what happens up front, they just presume we all know what we are doing and are experienced enough. If you asked most of the general public, do you feel comfortable with a 200 hour RYR hero upfront STRAIGHT OUT OF FLIGHT SCHOOL, I guarantee you in would be NO!!!

Who ever said experience does not count, try this, when you go for your next job interview, tell the CP and panel interviewing you it does not matter who sits up front and what hours they have.... you will be told, dont call us, we will call you.

[B767PL]

VJW

I didn't read the whole thread, or even whole first page for that matter, but all I will say is :

WOW, VJW, you are exactly what is wrong with this industry.

On top of that, with your comments, your lack of experience also shows or maybe just maturity. Having said things like that, you should be flying a kite, not a plane full of pax.