Training: Get rich or go home...
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If Superpilot is correct, I find it very sad, and incredibly discriminatory... People shouldn't be able to bypass experience with money, and money shouldn't deem talent superfluous: It's not the case for university graduates, so why is it for pilots?
Why is it that a 3000hr bush pilot/FI, who has an immeasurable amount of experience, determination, and life experience, be overlooked for an inexperienced wide eyed cadet? That is just wrong...
Why is it that a 3000hr bush pilot/FI, who has an immeasurable amount of experience, determination, and life experience, be overlooked for an inexperienced wide eyed cadet? That is just wrong...
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Yes superpilot, that is exactly what these airlines want.
If you turn the clock back 20,30,40 years, there were only a handful of pilots that ever got recruited by airlines with a couple of hundred hours under their belt. Those pilots came from a very small number of approved training schools and often with affiliations to a small number of airlines.
For the majority of non-military (self improver) airline applicants, they worked their way through the system. Many fell by the wayside, but for those that didn't it meant working your way through the "aerial work" jobs. Flight instruction, glider towing, parachute dropping, aerial photography, rich friends and aquaintances with planes who wanted help now and again. You worked your hours up to 700+ and did the requisite examinations and tests for the CPL/IR and started looking for air taxi jobs whilst still sending CV's to all and sundry.
In those days you could instruct on a PPL with the requisite ratings. However this was a variation rarely found outside of the UK, where any form of flying for hire and reward required a commercial licence.
The introduction of JAA brought with it changes to the licensing system that did away with this anomaly and at the same reduced the experience levels required for the "modular" issue of a CPL to a couple of hundred hours. In essence (if not strictly) this made the CPL more of an "aerial work" licence similar to that that existed in the USA and much of the rest of the world.
The problem for many, is the perception that this level of experience is all you need to start exciting interest from airlines. Many confused the modular 200 hour experience, with the approved course 200 experience that had been a limited springboard previously. That was a mistake!
To be fair it was a mistake aided by the fact that, one or two new entrant "Lo-Co's" who couldn't eliminate the role of First Officer completely, (as they very vocally wanted to do,) chose to exploit the loophole seemingly left by the new JAA licencing system, in order to attract the next best option.
What you are seeing today, is in fact no different from what happened previously. Airlines are still recruiting cadet pilots (albeit in much greater proportion) with 200 hours, but those pilots are coming from recognised, affiliated, full time, monitored, mentored and integrated schools. These candidates are a known quality, their training records are consistent and readily available. In fact no different than it has always been.
The type rating is simply icing. A modular 200 hour pilot who has bought this training piecemeal and then purchased a type rating with no experience attached to it, is likely to raise concerns in many quarters. That is one of the many reasons why you don't see these airlines interviewing them. I have flown with a lot of low hour pilots over the last 15 years and all of them have come from one of the recognised schools you have already stated. They are good, and they are not in short supply.
If you turn the clock back 20,30,40 years, there were only a handful of pilots that ever got recruited by airlines with a couple of hundred hours under their belt. Those pilots came from a very small number of approved training schools and often with affiliations to a small number of airlines.
For the majority of non-military (self improver) airline applicants, they worked their way through the system. Many fell by the wayside, but for those that didn't it meant working your way through the "aerial work" jobs. Flight instruction, glider towing, parachute dropping, aerial photography, rich friends and aquaintances with planes who wanted help now and again. You worked your hours up to 700+ and did the requisite examinations and tests for the CPL/IR and started looking for air taxi jobs whilst still sending CV's to all and sundry.
In those days you could instruct on a PPL with the requisite ratings. However this was a variation rarely found outside of the UK, where any form of flying for hire and reward required a commercial licence.
The introduction of JAA brought with it changes to the licensing system that did away with this anomaly and at the same reduced the experience levels required for the "modular" issue of a CPL to a couple of hundred hours. In essence (if not strictly) this made the CPL more of an "aerial work" licence similar to that that existed in the USA and much of the rest of the world.
The problem for many, is the perception that this level of experience is all you need to start exciting interest from airlines. Many confused the modular 200 hour experience, with the approved course 200 experience that had been a limited springboard previously. That was a mistake!
To be fair it was a mistake aided by the fact that, one or two new entrant "Lo-Co's" who couldn't eliminate the role of First Officer completely, (as they very vocally wanted to do,) chose to exploit the loophole seemingly left by the new JAA licencing system, in order to attract the next best option.
What you are seeing today, is in fact no different from what happened previously. Airlines are still recruiting cadet pilots (albeit in much greater proportion) with 200 hours, but those pilots are coming from recognised, affiliated, full time, monitored, mentored and integrated schools. These candidates are a known quality, their training records are consistent and readily available. In fact no different than it has always been.
The type rating is simply icing. A modular 200 hour pilot who has bought this training piecemeal and then purchased a type rating with no experience attached to it, is likely to raise concerns in many quarters. That is one of the many reasons why you don't see these airlines interviewing them. I have flown with a lot of low hour pilots over the last 15 years and all of them have come from one of the recognised schools you have already stated. They are good, and they are not in short supply.
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Why is it that a 3000hr bush pilot/FI, who has an immeasurable amount of experience, determination, and life experience, be overlooked for an inexperienced wide eyed cadet?
Thanks Beazle, I too now concede that this has always been the way. I guess, I'm part of a generation of modular pilots who were sold a false dream on the back of what appeared to be quite a rampant recruitment period.
I have spent close to £70k on my modular training (including an A320 TR). At this point I either give up totally or accept the reality of the situation: The most likely way for me to land a paid flying position is to get on to a line training "scheme" in the hope that it becomes some sort of extended assessment opportunity. Who said modular costs less than integrated?
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Superpilot:- If i were you I'd stick it out, the only way you'll conform to what you say is if you give in... keep you're self current and there'll always be a way in! 
F.
F.
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No, I don't necessarily agree with that Superpilot.
As I already said, it was never a particularly quick or easy ride, but it most certainly wasn't impossible. There are a great many pilots flying airliners today who are testament to that.
The problem is one of perception. That perception being that 200 hours and a licence, however aquired, is a magic carpet ride into the interview room of most airlines. It never was, isn't, and likely never will be.
The biggest problem at the moment remains the doldrums in airline recruitment. The economy coupled with longevity changes to the pilots career structure has resulted in very little demand at the entry level for most companies. Where there has been demand it has gravitated towards the cadet end of the market. This has been bad news for experienced career pilots looking for new positions as a result of redundancy, advancement and change. It has also been bad news for military pilots looking for career change at fixed points in their own career cycle.
The demand for traditional experience has diminished as airlines seek to reduce the employment costs of new entry pilots. That cost has reached a crossover point by utilising the best of the low experienced candidates in supply. That is seen as being those cadets who the airline has input with, and whose training is a known quantity by virtue of the airlines association with specific training providers.
I believe this should always be part of a measured input and not simply cost generated. However the expansion in recruitment should (and I believe eventually will) be back towards the experienced jet /turboprop applicant and the ex-military pilots. However for the traditional self improver, that opportunity should normally only be afforded when their experience levels show a broader aviation background, and that isn't going to happen for most people when their hours are measured in hundreds.
As I already said, it was never a particularly quick or easy ride, but it most certainly wasn't impossible. There are a great many pilots flying airliners today who are testament to that.
The problem is one of perception. That perception being that 200 hours and a licence, however aquired, is a magic carpet ride into the interview room of most airlines. It never was, isn't, and likely never will be.
The biggest problem at the moment remains the doldrums in airline recruitment. The economy coupled with longevity changes to the pilots career structure has resulted in very little demand at the entry level for most companies. Where there has been demand it has gravitated towards the cadet end of the market. This has been bad news for experienced career pilots looking for new positions as a result of redundancy, advancement and change. It has also been bad news for military pilots looking for career change at fixed points in their own career cycle.
The demand for traditional experience has diminished as airlines seek to reduce the employment costs of new entry pilots. That cost has reached a crossover point by utilising the best of the low experienced candidates in supply. That is seen as being those cadets who the airline has input with, and whose training is a known quantity by virtue of the airlines association with specific training providers.
I believe this should always be part of a measured input and not simply cost generated. However the expansion in recruitment should (and I believe eventually will) be back towards the experienced jet /turboprop applicant and the ex-military pilots. However for the traditional self improver, that opportunity should normally only be afforded when their experience levels show a broader aviation background, and that isn't going to happen for most people when their hours are measured in hundreds.
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Guys, with all due respect why is it that quite a few guys with the least amount of experience and who have never worked for an airline seem to know 'what the airlines want?'.
Superpilot you are referring to certain low-cost airlines, but that policy is not the case for the majority of airlines.
I know it's frustrating, but hang in there guys. This is the first time for a while I have started to see a demand for pilots, so hopefully over the next year lowtime guys will get a look in. I really hope so.
Superpilot you are referring to certain low-cost airlines, but that policy is not the case for the majority of airlines.
I know it's frustrating, but hang in there guys. This is the first time for a while I have started to see a demand for pilots, so hopefully over the next year lowtime guys will get a look in. I really hope so.
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Excuse me taking up too much space in this thread, but I would also add something else that might help in understanding what is happening.
In the nearly 3 decades that I have sat in the left seat of commercial airliners, I have flown with hundreds, many hundreds of new F/O's and I doubt my experiences have differed greatly from the majority of other Captains with similar, greater, or less experience.
Far and away the majority of pilots you fly with are conscientious, professional, aspirational, intelligent, amiable individuals. Everybody has a different makeup of ingredients that gives them their own character and individuality. Sometimes the hardest thing in flying (or many other jobs) is the ability to learn and adapt your own persona, to that of the people you are working with. On top of that is the need to absorb knowledge, be flexible, be assertive as necessary, ask questions when in doubt, and constantly learn from each experience and each individual you fly with.
Serious problems are very few and far between, and even then they are usually resolvable. However when they do occur, it tends to be as result of poor training, poor CRM, poor attitude, or simple lack of experience that isn't easily remedied. Over the years difficulties have arisen rarely with military pilots who on occaissions may have had difficulty in adapting later in life to a new set of operating realities. Experienced pilots changing jobs have sometimes found it difficult to adapt to a new companies SOP's. But undoubtably the majority of cases have tended to be with pilots who have come through the self improver route with low experience and sometimes a patchy training background.
Let me make it clear, that is not universally the case, and such examples are significantly in the minority, but (and I am talking about pilots with 700+ hours here) it is the where the problems tended to arise when indeed they did.
About 15 years ago, we started to see the first intake of cadets from integrated training schools. Like many other people, I had some serious misgivings and concerns about the low levels of experience these cadets brought with them. However the reality was that these cadets brought with them a whole new level in those concepts we now refer to as CRM, as well as a remarkable degree of basic knowledge, desire for feedback, great attitude, and adaptability.
Their unbroken and continuous training, had been provided by one establishment that taught them in an airline style environment, so that they found the transistion to real airline flying a seamless and seemingly natural concept. I am only speaking from my own experience (and I am sure there must be contrary examples,) but I have never in all that time flown with one cadet that has presented any serious problem at all. In fact I am not aware (in my own environment) of one single cadet who hasn't gone on to achieve their command at the normal time / experience level. Some of those early cadets have now gone on to become Trainers and managers within the same company. Whatever doubts I had 15 years ago have been well and truly proven unfounded.
This is why many of these companies are so keen to resource their cadets from these programmes. The companies have a close association with the training schools. They can, when required, see a candidates entire training history and progress reports. They can see them in a format they know and understand. In the current economic climate they can aquire this same quality experience relatively cheaply, with little risk, and on terms and conditions that are highly favourable to themselves. There is little training risk, and if they really don't like what they receive, they can send it back.
So yes, I think you make a very valid point when you say that "who said modular costs less than integrated" On the face of it it does. For many it is the only realistic way of achieveing a licence. The vast majority of aspirants will utilize this method. There is no particular reason why a person following this route shouldn't achieve their goals and ambitions at some point, with a lot of luck and perseverance. However people would be wise to take a broader viewpoint and understand that the majority of airlines taking in 200 hour cadets will want to assure themselves that those cadets have come from what the company perceives as a training organisation it knows and trusts and has its own input with.
In the nearly 3 decades that I have sat in the left seat of commercial airliners, I have flown with hundreds, many hundreds of new F/O's and I doubt my experiences have differed greatly from the majority of other Captains with similar, greater, or less experience.
Far and away the majority of pilots you fly with are conscientious, professional, aspirational, intelligent, amiable individuals. Everybody has a different makeup of ingredients that gives them their own character and individuality. Sometimes the hardest thing in flying (or many other jobs) is the ability to learn and adapt your own persona, to that of the people you are working with. On top of that is the need to absorb knowledge, be flexible, be assertive as necessary, ask questions when in doubt, and constantly learn from each experience and each individual you fly with.
Serious problems are very few and far between, and even then they are usually resolvable. However when they do occur, it tends to be as result of poor training, poor CRM, poor attitude, or simple lack of experience that isn't easily remedied. Over the years difficulties have arisen rarely with military pilots who on occaissions may have had difficulty in adapting later in life to a new set of operating realities. Experienced pilots changing jobs have sometimes found it difficult to adapt to a new companies SOP's. But undoubtably the majority of cases have tended to be with pilots who have come through the self improver route with low experience and sometimes a patchy training background.
Let me make it clear, that is not universally the case, and such examples are significantly in the minority, but (and I am talking about pilots with 700+ hours here) it is the where the problems tended to arise when indeed they did.
About 15 years ago, we started to see the first intake of cadets from integrated training schools. Like many other people, I had some serious misgivings and concerns about the low levels of experience these cadets brought with them. However the reality was that these cadets brought with them a whole new level in those concepts we now refer to as CRM, as well as a remarkable degree of basic knowledge, desire for feedback, great attitude, and adaptability.
Their unbroken and continuous training, had been provided by one establishment that taught them in an airline style environment, so that they found the transistion to real airline flying a seamless and seemingly natural concept. I am only speaking from my own experience (and I am sure there must be contrary examples,) but I have never in all that time flown with one cadet that has presented any serious problem at all. In fact I am not aware (in my own environment) of one single cadet who hasn't gone on to achieve their command at the normal time / experience level. Some of those early cadets have now gone on to become Trainers and managers within the same company. Whatever doubts I had 15 years ago have been well and truly proven unfounded.
This is why many of these companies are so keen to resource their cadets from these programmes. The companies have a close association with the training schools. They can, when required, see a candidates entire training history and progress reports. They can see them in a format they know and understand. In the current economic climate they can aquire this same quality experience relatively cheaply, with little risk, and on terms and conditions that are highly favourable to themselves. There is little training risk, and if they really don't like what they receive, they can send it back.
So yes, I think you make a very valid point when you say that "who said modular costs less than integrated" On the face of it it does. For many it is the only realistic way of achieveing a licence. The vast majority of aspirants will utilize this method. There is no particular reason why a person following this route shouldn't achieve their goals and ambitions at some point, with a lot of luck and perseverance. However people would be wise to take a broader viewpoint and understand that the majority of airlines taking in 200 hour cadets will want to assure themselves that those cadets have come from what the company perceives as a training organisation it knows and trusts and has its own input with.
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I was asked at an interview recently what advice I would give to someone in exactly your position.
My answer was this.
If you are passionate about aviation get yourself a good job that pays you enough to keep flying GA types as your 'hobby' pastime or whatever you wish to call it. This industry is becoming horribly cut throat, and desperately expensive, especially if you have already done a university degree. Starting your working life neck deep in debt (before you by a house) is a really really really bad thing to do.
My situation: 13 years as a pilot, 2 turbo prop types, one jet type, 5300 total time, 2 years unemployed since redundancy, and two rather shaky job offers for next year.
Next please!
My answer was this.
If you are passionate about aviation get yourself a good job that pays you enough to keep flying GA types as your 'hobby' pastime or whatever you wish to call it. This industry is becoming horribly cut throat, and desperately expensive, especially if you have already done a university degree. Starting your working life neck deep in debt (before you by a house) is a really really really bad thing to do.
My situation: 13 years as a pilot, 2 turbo prop types, one jet type, 5300 total time, 2 years unemployed since redundancy, and two rather shaky job offers for next year.
Next please!
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buiding trade as a backup
For a new pilot embarking on a modular route to a pilot career there is no better backup than having a building trade background.
You have flexibility with hours and the ability to earn as much money as you want to work for.
There is plenty of work for good tradesmen and as the owner of a company employing numerous trades i can tell you 40k a year is on the low side.
My highest earners gross wage this year was 62k.
We have 2 guys working for us who have been made redundant from the city who are retraining as the jobs market is so poor.
We have also had 3 guys emigrate to australia on tradesmen visas ,but 2 are going to train as pilots eventually due to there being more opportunities over there.
There are plenty of pilots with a working class background its not where you start its where you end up that matters.
You have flexibility with hours and the ability to earn as much money as you want to work for.
There is plenty of work for good tradesmen and as the owner of a company employing numerous trades i can tell you 40k a year is on the low side.
My highest earners gross wage this year was 62k.
We have 2 guys working for us who have been made redundant from the city who are retraining as the jobs market is so poor.
We have also had 3 guys emigrate to australia on tradesmen visas ,but 2 are going to train as pilots eventually due to there being more opportunities over there.
There are plenty of pilots with a working class background its not where you start its where you end up that matters.
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To the OP. I started the self funded 07/08 route a few years ago which allowed me be flexible with my training and keep an eye on the jobs market. Pretty soon into it I realised things were falling apart in the jobs market and slowed right down , I have since not speeded up! I fly bye and large for fun and work in a much better paid job than what I see being offerred or available after five or ten years as a pilot nowadays. Whilst I do have a little shiny jet syndrome still I got past the point where it seems many dont and have their judgement clouded and continue to commit every penny to the " hobby " .. It seems people are prepared to put their hand in their pocket for more and more these days such that the risk is increasing and the point of potential return is being moved further and further down the line. I honestly envisage the day where captains are paying for their first command...so flying remains a passion and not my own source of income. I responded to your post because you seem to be looking at the market honestly , which was something that was very hard for me to do at the time but in hindsight I am very glad I did even if I wish sometimes when boarding I was turning left
Perhaps down the road things change and I speed up or just end up qualified but I have already realised I am not going to pay for a job or hours etc. etc..its not lack of determination,.. I am determined in many ways and successful ,,its more that I am not prepared to pay any price. Good luck for the future , hopefully it picks up such that self improvers have to be looked at as serious contenders for a job.
Perhaps down the road things change and I speed up or just end up qualified but I have already realised I am not going to pay for a job or hours etc. etc..its not lack of determination,.. I am determined in many ways and successful ,,its more that I am not prepared to pay any price. Good luck for the future , hopefully it picks up such that self improvers have to be looked at as serious contenders for a job.
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Firstly I would like to thank everyone for their response.
Secondly, I am now so confused as to what decision to make. It seems to me that OAA and CTC are costly, but make up for this with their ties to airlines.
I am completely confused as to what to do, and I don't mind admitting it. Modular sounds great, and other flight schools that are cheaper seem good too, but what is the point in doing these courses if the chances of airline employment at the end of training are minimal.
I know going to a school like Oxford doesn't guarantee airline employment, but I am beginning to think that if I am ever to get in the right hand seat of a jet I better had risk the huge cost just to get in the pockets of the airlines.
Fyings my dream, and I am envious of you guys who are living the dream! Hopefully I will get there one day, I'm sure I will, it's all I've ever wanted to do. Just unfortunate that the more research I do, the more confused I seem to become. I guess the only way to find out is to get out there and risk it!
Secondly, I am now so confused as to what decision to make. It seems to me that OAA and CTC are costly, but make up for this with their ties to airlines.
I am completely confused as to what to do, and I don't mind admitting it. Modular sounds great, and other flight schools that are cheaper seem good too, but what is the point in doing these courses if the chances of airline employment at the end of training are minimal.
I know going to a school like Oxford doesn't guarantee airline employment, but I am beginning to think that if I am ever to get in the right hand seat of a jet I better had risk the huge cost just to get in the pockets of the airlines.
Fyings my dream, and I am envious of you guys who are living the dream! Hopefully I will get there one day, I'm sure I will, it's all I've ever wanted to do. Just unfortunate that the more research I do, the more confused I seem to become. I guess the only way to find out is to get out there and risk it!
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Fyings my dream, and I am envious of you guys who are living the dream!
GET A CLUE, it s not a dream job anymore!!!!
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GAZ,
Unfortunately it comes down to whether or not you have the financial firepower to fork out 100k for training, and a few years extra £ to see you through, if you want to go Integrated.
Could you afford to pay £1000+ a month back after training without a flying job? Would you have the resources available to fund a TR of up to £30,000 to secure a flying job? If so, take a risk; If not, go modular!
Is modular pointless? Ask you're self this: Do I want to pilot aeroplanes for a living? If the above isn't possible, It is you're only option - and not a bad one at that!
I was due to start at OAA, on the Integrated course, but have decided against it. I decided I'd far rather enjoy my flight training, take my time with it, and take it one step at a time, without the financial burden.
I wasn't that impressed as a whole with the 'big schools' as it were. I felt as though the wool was being pulled over my eyes, they couldn't ever answer my questions directly, and it all sounded oh-so rehearsed. It seemed as though I was heading into a massive industrial meat processing unit, only to be churned out, like everybody else, with the same minimal qualifications, and the realization that I was no different to the other 1000+ people looking for the same job! I'm not doubting the training is of a good standard, but I don't believe it's any better than where i did my PPL.
For what it's worth: I'm planning to head out to Africa next year to try get a job as an African bush pilot; a flying job, flying real aeroplanes, in a surreal yet challenging environment. I will have spent $16,000, or £10,000, post PPL, achieving my JAA CPL and the necessary hours and exams and be debt free.
If you really want to fly, you will fly.
Persistence and luck is all it takes...
Best of luck!
F.
Unfortunately it comes down to whether or not you have the financial firepower to fork out 100k for training, and a few years extra £ to see you through, if you want to go Integrated.
Could you afford to pay £1000+ a month back after training without a flying job? Would you have the resources available to fund a TR of up to £30,000 to secure a flying job? If so, take a risk; If not, go modular!
Is modular pointless? Ask you're self this: Do I want to pilot aeroplanes for a living? If the above isn't possible, It is you're only option - and not a bad one at that!
I was due to start at OAA, on the Integrated course, but have decided against it. I decided I'd far rather enjoy my flight training, take my time with it, and take it one step at a time, without the financial burden.
I wasn't that impressed as a whole with the 'big schools' as it were. I felt as though the wool was being pulled over my eyes, they couldn't ever answer my questions directly, and it all sounded oh-so rehearsed. It seemed as though I was heading into a massive industrial meat processing unit, only to be churned out, like everybody else, with the same minimal qualifications, and the realization that I was no different to the other 1000+ people looking for the same job! I'm not doubting the training is of a good standard, but I don't believe it's any better than where i did my PPL.
For what it's worth: I'm planning to head out to Africa next year to try get a job as an African bush pilot; a flying job, flying real aeroplanes, in a surreal yet challenging environment. I will have spent $16,000, or £10,000, post PPL, achieving my JAA CPL and the necessary hours and exams and be debt free.
If you really want to fly, you will fly.
Persistence and luck is all it takes...
Best of luck!
F.
Last edited by Felix Saddler; 28th Dec 2010 at 01:12.
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I'm with firestorm.
Gaz, you seem like a sensible guy - have you done a PPL yet ? Don't risk any 'big' money before you see if you have any aptitude for it and even like it or not - bearing in mind messing about in a cessna has little in relation to the reality of airline life.
The truth is there is a fine line between dreams and nightmares. I still think people still look at the uniform and think glamour - think again - think of birthdays/xmas//weekends away from home. Think of struggling to maintain any social life, think of 12 hour + shifts starting at 2 am.Remember you don't fly much - airline SOPs generally don't encourage hand flying these days, I generally get about 4-5 mins stick time max in a 7 hour flight.
You are competing with several thousand identical pilots, they are ten for a pound to the airlines.
If you love flying then why do you want to join an airline anyway ? Make a fortune in business and fly something fun at the weekend like an extra.
I would not want to do anything else because I still love the upsides of the profession but you need to consider the dark side as well.
FTG - 757 capt.
Gaz, you seem like a sensible guy - have you done a PPL yet ? Don't risk any 'big' money before you see if you have any aptitude for it and even like it or not - bearing in mind messing about in a cessna has little in relation to the reality of airline life.
The truth is there is a fine line between dreams and nightmares. I still think people still look at the uniform and think glamour - think again - think of birthdays/xmas//weekends away from home. Think of struggling to maintain any social life, think of 12 hour + shifts starting at 2 am.Remember you don't fly much - airline SOPs generally don't encourage hand flying these days, I generally get about 4-5 mins stick time max in a 7 hour flight.
You are competing with several thousand identical pilots, they are ten for a pound to the airlines.
If you love flying then why do you want to join an airline anyway ? Make a fortune in business and fly something fun at the weekend like an extra.
I would not want to do anything else because I still love the upsides of the profession but you need to consider the dark side as well.
FTG - 757 capt.
