Are things picking up?
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Just another thought, at what point would the insurance companies start sitting up and taking notice? A massive increase in premiums would kill P2F a lot faster than public opinion seeing as airlines hate spending money.
Perhaps an anonymous note to direct line or whomever? start the ball rolling.
Perhaps an anonymous note to direct line or whomever? start the ball rolling.
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easyJet does not use P2F which seems to be implied in this thread. FlexiCrew are paid by the block hour.
Double dip is far from certain.
Everything here on this thread is pure speculation. Do not take it as gospel.
Double dip is far from certain.
Everything here on this thread is pure speculation. Do not take it as gospel.
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I expect insurance companies are constantly looking at the stats quite closely. In the 'old' days the main reason to build hours was due to insurance requirements. These days the aircraft used by the mainstream airlines are more reliable and easier to operate in a rigid 'SOP' type way and combining this with FDM then it is easy to enforce and regulate standards. I know that there have been a number of 'minor' incidents such as tail strikes with low experienced crews but whether there is any statistical difference from days gone by I don't know. Going back 15 years I can think of a few (some amusing) incidents that really ought not to have happened so the odd boo-boo these days wouldn't necessarily flag up any interest with insurance companies.
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Put simply, airlines in the UK have made P2F work. Nobody seems to suggest that the training department at EZY, for example, is anything other than excellent, and assuming that this continues, there will be absolutely no reason for the CAA to intervene.
I'd argue that stalling on finals falls into that category. You can teach someone what to do on a few sim trips, but for that to be a muscle-memory action takes more than just the initial training.
And the reason that the legacy carriers still value experience over 200hr wannabes? http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...mmended-2.html . I think there is a comment in that thread by a user about whether the cadets in his/her airline would have been able to recover said situation.
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Future pilot supply for the airlines
Airlines seem to be starting to order aircraft in respectable numbers again after a period in which cancellations or postponements dominated. The Emirates order in June for another 32 Airbus A380s - bringing its planned A380 fleet to 90 aircraft - is the most spectacular of a steady stream of new contracts.
As orders accelerate, however, less thought seems to have been given to who is going to fly the new aeroplanes. Hardware requires skilled "liveware" to operate it, but airlines seem to be assuming that appropriately qualified pilots will just materialise as required.
As orders accelerate, however, less thought seems to have been given to who is going to fly the new aeroplanes. Hardware requires skilled "liveware" to operate it, but airlines seem to be assuming that appropriately qualified pilots will just materialise as required.
Watts admits that times are tight, and flight training organisations such as his are having to do what it takes to survive the drought while awaiting the return of the rains. But when the rain does come, it might turn out to be a monsoon.
Future pilot supply for the airlines
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The last famous stalling final incidents were caused by pretty experienced pilots. Even the THY accident had a student pilot with several thousand hours of experience. Simply amassing hours can be apparently pretty worthless, even if it is done in the military (THY), but a structured and well supervised training scheme can work around that.
In fact some majors rather stick to their own student and hire only outside pilots if they have to due to supply problems. Which means with legacy carriers switching to MPL training that the day of the 200 hour wonder is now gone and replaced by the 50 to 80 hour wonder. A good MPL course by the way is not cheaper than traditional training, quite the opposite, but it assures training in a multi pilot cockpit from day one with the operation philosophy of the airline in question. Especially if you do part of the real flight hours on a training jet (CJ1) after a complete and thorough type rating.
However it makes only sense if you have an airline with low crew fluctuation numbers and therefore a good mix of very experienced and few unexperienced pilots. If that is no assured and proper rostering is not done it will lead to the odd pairing of inexperienced pilots on both sides which is not really good either.
In fact some majors rather stick to their own student and hire only outside pilots if they have to due to supply problems. Which means with legacy carriers switching to MPL training that the day of the 200 hour wonder is now gone and replaced by the 50 to 80 hour wonder. A good MPL course by the way is not cheaper than traditional training, quite the opposite, but it assures training in a multi pilot cockpit from day one with the operation philosophy of the airline in question. Especially if you do part of the real flight hours on a training jet (CJ1) after a complete and thorough type rating.
However it makes only sense if you have an airline with low crew fluctuation numbers and therefore a good mix of very experienced and few unexperienced pilots. If that is no assured and proper rostering is not done it will lead to the odd pairing of inexperienced pilots on both sides which is not really good either.
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First off let me state for the record that my personal belief is P2F is deeply dishonourable of the companies that offer it and the cadets that take it. I firmly believe that most things come back around to bite (or kiss) and those that have embraced P2F will in time regret so doing.
However, I suspect P2F, or even further stretches of self sponsored ratings will not be culled by even a major accident for the simple reason that, experienced or non experienced, Accidents happen.
It has been going on for long enough now, that the airlines would simply point to the X many THOUSAND flights that have been operated across the industry with self sponsored and/or low hour, pilots of all varieties without incident. They would then also point out all the accidents/incidents that have occured with hugely experienced crews. This is the inconvenient truth. Low hours - self sponsored or not - cannot be demonstrably linked to a lack of flight safety.
The second element to this is that there are too many people (the airlines, the FTOs) with serious financial clout who have a vested interest in ensuring it continues. These bodies/individuals will lobby long and hard against any attempt to curtail it - and as history shows, those with the loudest voices, the most to lose and the deepest pockets tend to get their way.
Very sad, but the only real argument I can see against P2F (other than moral) is that "it's not fair". As I posted the other day, the only real way I can see for it to be stopped is for management pilots to start to demand of the parent companies that if the pilot EMPLOYEES are required to fund their training, then all other departments should have to follow suit. The point at which the beancounters have to start to fork out the £20k or so the company ends up paying for them to professionally qualify (ACCA or similar), is the point at which they'll decide training SHOULD be provided by the company, after all....
However, I suspect P2F, or even further stretches of self sponsored ratings will not be culled by even a major accident for the simple reason that, experienced or non experienced, Accidents happen.
It has been going on for long enough now, that the airlines would simply point to the X many THOUSAND flights that have been operated across the industry with self sponsored and/or low hour, pilots of all varieties without incident. They would then also point out all the accidents/incidents that have occured with hugely experienced crews. This is the inconvenient truth. Low hours - self sponsored or not - cannot be demonstrably linked to a lack of flight safety.
The second element to this is that there are too many people (the airlines, the FTOs) with serious financial clout who have a vested interest in ensuring it continues. These bodies/individuals will lobby long and hard against any attempt to curtail it - and as history shows, those with the loudest voices, the most to lose and the deepest pockets tend to get their way.
Very sad, but the only real argument I can see against P2F (other than moral) is that "it's not fair". As I posted the other day, the only real way I can see for it to be stopped is for management pilots to start to demand of the parent companies that if the pilot EMPLOYEES are required to fund their training, then all other departments should have to follow suit. The point at which the beancounters have to start to fork out the £20k or so the company ends up paying for them to professionally qualify (ACCA or similar), is the point at which they'll decide training SHOULD be provided by the company, after all....
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Yes, things are picking up. See "BA Hold Pool News" in Terms and Endearments.
TR candidates for now but good chance of non TR and 200hr cadets being taken on later in the year according to that thread. Hopefully BA recruit 50 ezy pilots and ezy have to cancel flights again due to lack of pilots. They'll only learn the hard way.
TR candidates for now but good chance of non TR and 200hr cadets being taken on later in the year according to that thread. Hopefully BA recruit 50 ezy pilots and ezy have to cancel flights again due to lack of pilots. They'll only learn the hard way.
