No Jet Job without 1500Hrs - Coming Soon?
To me 1500 hours does not seem an unreasonable minimum for someone to be occupying the RH seat of an airliner.
Any "airliner" today is going to have
Throughout a pilot's career, he/she is going to periodically face situations that require a combination of skill and experience to achieve a successful outcome. Lots of this stuff just can't be taught; it comes only from learning in the real world.
Having experienced training in the US, I can only suggest that over the past 20 years the standards have declined under pressure from costs (those same bean-counters who forced down wages).
There still remain many, many opportunities in the US for pilots to acquire the 1500 hours necessary to make it to the right seat of a jet, or turboprop. Remember that when the regional industry began in the US (not that long ago), those carriers were operating simpler (by comparison) aircraft such as piston twins, carrying fewer passengers over shorter distances.
As for this opening the gates for non-US pilots, don't hold your breath. There are thousands of US pilots working overseas who would love to return home.
Any "airliner" today is going to have
- turbine power
- pressurization
- the ability to operate in icing conditions
- the ability to operate in a high-traffic environment
- the trust of at least 40 passengers who bought a ticket on an "airline" because they believe it infers a certain minimum standard of safety.
Throughout a pilot's career, he/she is going to periodically face situations that require a combination of skill and experience to achieve a successful outcome. Lots of this stuff just can't be taught; it comes only from learning in the real world.
Having experienced training in the US, I can only suggest that over the past 20 years the standards have declined under pressure from costs (those same bean-counters who forced down wages).
There still remain many, many opportunities in the US for pilots to acquire the 1500 hours necessary to make it to the right seat of a jet, or turboprop. Remember that when the regional industry began in the US (not that long ago), those carriers were operating simpler (by comparison) aircraft such as piston twins, carrying fewer passengers over shorter distances.
As for this opening the gates for non-US pilots, don't hold your breath. There are thousands of US pilots working overseas who would love to return home.
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The military IS one career path, and they are hiring. HOWEVER, things are changing, like always on Earth.
This year's crop of new pilots at the US Air Force: Over 50% are starting in RPVs (Remotely Piloted Vehicles), so they probably won't be qualified to fly for the airlines anytime soon.
This year's crop of new pilots at the US Air Force: Over 50% are starting in RPVs (Remotely Piloted Vehicles), so they probably won't be qualified to fly for the airlines anytime soon.
I think this is very much a good news story.
Requiring 1500 hrs will very significantly reduce the pool of available new hires for the regionals. If will mean you will have to work your way up through instructing air taxi, cargo flying etc. A lot of the wannabe's who just want to buy there way into the right seat are going to get discouraged which means the folks left are going to have to be pretty dedicated. Fewer pilots with the minimum experience level is going to force the regional airlines to start paying liveable wages.
Finally and best of all, the P2F scumbags operators like Gulfstream and Eagle jet are going to be put out of business
Requiring 1500 hrs will very significantly reduce the pool of available new hires for the regionals. If will mean you will have to work your way up through instructing air taxi, cargo flying etc. A lot of the wannabe's who just want to buy there way into the right seat are going to get discouraged which means the folks left are going to have to be pretty dedicated. Fewer pilots with the minimum experience level is going to force the regional airlines to start paying liveable wages.
Finally and best of all, the P2F scumbags operators like Gulfstream and Eagle jet are going to be put out of business
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I think the seasoning process these days must take a step backwards to the days of being a flight instructor, doing bank checks or other crummy 135 stuff. I didn't get on with a major till I had over 5000 real, hard hours. Very little of it on autopilot!(less than 100 hours).
If you have 200 hours, get on a plane with an autopilot and use it most of the time, by the time you have 2200 hours, you might only have 400-500 real hand flown hours...maybe less since you are only getting half of the legs.
The learning times...like Lindbergh alluded to...teaching someone else to fly teaches YOU to fly better.
If you have 200 hours, get on a plane with an autopilot and use it most of the time, by the time you have 2200 hours, you might only have 400-500 real hand flown hours...maybe less since you are only getting half of the legs.
The learning times...like Lindbergh alluded to...teaching someone else to fly teaches YOU to fly better.
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Similar thread elsewhere on PPRuNe just started as well, including link..
It's been announced that this is in the pipeline while ago.
I wouldn't call it 'instructing becoming noble again'.
I'd call it bottlenecking of wannabe jet pilots. Just like getting into the cockpit of a turbine helicopter in any pro outfit, getting hours up through instructing in R22/S300 (with maybe mustering in Australia, IR(H) owners in North Sea as co-joe etc exceptions) is pretty much the only way.
I can't see this happening in Europe. Some Americans may be more prone to paying for 'line training' soon, but it'd definitely cause recruitment problems in boom times and plenty headache to fresh CPL holders stateside.
At least if air taxi/freight etc isn't considered to be in the 'comm air transport', that'd help.
I agree that it'd definitely help T&Cs
It's been announced that this is in the pipeline while ago.
I wouldn't call it 'instructing becoming noble again'.
I'd call it bottlenecking of wannabe jet pilots. Just like getting into the cockpit of a turbine helicopter in any pro outfit, getting hours up through instructing in R22/S300 (with maybe mustering in Australia, IR(H) owners in North Sea as co-joe etc exceptions) is pretty much the only way.
I can't see this happening in Europe. Some Americans may be more prone to paying for 'line training' soon, but it'd definitely cause recruitment problems in boom times and plenty headache to fresh CPL holders stateside.
At least if air taxi/freight etc isn't considered to be in the 'comm air transport', that'd help.
I agree that it'd definitely help T&Cs
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This ruling is good news to aviation safety. I have flown with pilots as a new 737 captain that made us a single pilot airliner. We made it through the night but it isn't right. Anybody who gets into the right seat of a jet airliner should be qualified to fly it himself. What happens if the captain is incapacitated? Our airline hired only qualified pilots but this one slipped through because he knew a chief pilot that slid him through with his push. 1500 hrs isn't a lot of time but it is better than 250.
I agree an ATP should also be required for the P51 guys that show time they didn't really fly. Not being able to pass the ATP would show possible fraud.
I agree an ATP should also be required for the P51 guys that show time they didn't really fly. Not being able to pass the ATP would show possible fraud.
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I went through this list of really fun jobs to be an airline pilot.
Supercub cropduster in Minnesota, instructor for years in California, more instructing other places, charter flying in D18's, Cessnas, Pipers, etc, Jet charter, Corporate Falcon and Jetstar flying, then the big break, Airline flying. It took three airlines and retirement. I loved every minute of it.
Supercub cropduster in Minnesota, instructor for years in California, more instructing other places, charter flying in D18's, Cessnas, Pipers, etc, Jet charter, Corporate Falcon and Jetstar flying, then the big break, Airline flying. It took three airlines and retirement. I loved every minute of it.
atpcliff
You are quite right about the US Mil--RPV's are becoming a significant part of military aviation. A friend's son graduated UPT about a year ago and was ecstatic to get a King Air; presently in the 'Stan.
The best deal, if one can get in, is still the AF Reserve or Guard. Guys and gals I sent to UPT 5-10 years ago, now have 2,500-4,000 hours in C-5s; are in command or instructors with all of that time overseas and now with "glass" cockpit. Not sure how many are going to the airlines, though, the pay as a flying captain is very competitive. One is a AA B-767 F/O making considerably more on AD as a Lt Colonel than at the 'line. Another Reserve baby done good.
GF
You are quite right about the US Mil--RPV's are becoming a significant part of military aviation. A friend's son graduated UPT about a year ago and was ecstatic to get a King Air; presently in the 'Stan.
The best deal, if one can get in, is still the AF Reserve or Guard. Guys and gals I sent to UPT 5-10 years ago, now have 2,500-4,000 hours in C-5s; are in command or instructors with all of that time overseas and now with "glass" cockpit. Not sure how many are going to the airlines, though, the pay as a flying captain is very competitive. One is a AA B-767 F/O making considerably more on AD as a Lt Colonel than at the 'line. Another Reserve baby done good.
GF
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The only 250 hour pilots on an airliner flight deck were second officers coming from a cadet programme. Only a personal view but I believe that gaining 1500 hours out there in general aviation is pure gold.
Automatic pilot flying does not need the handling skills of yesteryear, and the thought that pilots are now managers rather than aviators is not far wrong.
40 years ago in Australia at least, 170 hour commercial pilots with nothing but Tiger Moths and a variable pitch fixed undercarriage single Wackett trainer were getting jobs in the RH seat of DC3's - and no previous multi-engine time and no instrument rating, either. By ten years they had commands on DC3 and DC4 and later F28's.
The danger area is in the first year or so in the RH seat of an A320 or 737 if the captain becomes incapacitated and the inexperienced F/O is on his own. It takes one bird strike through the captain's window to lay him low and then the odds of the new copilot all alone pulling off a safe arrival go down significantly.
The travelling public are entitled to think that they are in the safe hands of two experienced pilots up front. After all, what is the original point of having two crew? The answer is in case one pilot goes unserviceable. That is not always so nowadays. I can see why the USA authorities have upped the flying experience requirements for first officers to meet that expectation. It would certainly make me happier as a pax down the back in cattle class!
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galaxyfli
I enlisted in the army during the RIF of the middle 1970's...just wondering what an aircraft commander of a plane the size of a C17 would make in the air force...I'm guessing he would be a major or a captain or so.
just wondering...airline flying ain't what it use to be
I enlisted in the army during the RIF of the middle 1970's...just wondering what an aircraft commander of a plane the size of a C17 would make in the air force...I'm guessing he would be a major or a captain or so.
just wondering...airline flying ain't what it use to be
Cliffy, who was hiring pilots without a COMM? I know Eagle was down to 250 hours with a MEL but they wanted a COMM. And I don't count being at places like Gulfstream as "hired" since the money went the other way.
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There still remain many, many opportunities in the US for pilots to acquire the 1500 hours necessary to make it to the right seat of a jet, or turboprop. Remember that when the regional industry began in the US (not that long ago), those carriers were operating simpler (by comparison) aircraft such as piston twins, carrying fewer passengers over shorter distances.
This doesn't mean I don't disagree with tightening up on pure P2F etc.
However, our politicians are famed for making rushed and ill-advised decisions (such as closing down euro airspace with E15) so it will be interesting to see what happens over here.
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Europe won't go to the 1500 hour limit anytime soon. Quite the contrary, MPL is there to stay. And remember, most of the major airlines in europe allways hired very low time cadets from their own schools, so it is something with a history of 50 years or more now.
Training departments nowadays love the MPL students as they know aircraft systems and automatic flight modes quite well and have no problems with the typerating syllabus, not really a wonder when they have sat up to 100 hours in the simulator before beginning the type rating. Line captains disagree there somewhat, but not as much as expected.
Training departments nowadays love the MPL students as they know aircraft systems and automatic flight modes quite well and have no problems with the typerating syllabus, not really a wonder when they have sat up to 100 hours in the simulator before beginning the type rating. Line captains disagree there somewhat, but not as much as expected.
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Personally I think they have missed the point with the issue they choose to do a public show to the public.
The issue they should really deal with is the FTL's and commuting. The skipper in the buffalo was sleeping in crew rooms and from what I could tell had not been in a bed for 36 hours before the flight.
The issue they should really deal with is the FTL's and commuting. The skipper in the buffalo was sleeping in crew rooms and from what I could tell had not been in a bed for 36 hours before the flight.
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Training departments nowadays love the MPL students as they know aircraft systems and automatic flight modes quite well and have no problems with the type rating syllabus, not really a wonder when they have sat up to 100 hours in the simulator before beginning the type rating. Line captains disagree there somewhat, but not as much as expected.
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It looks like the balance between stick and rudders skills vs automation has shifted way too far towards the latter. This new FAA rule (pending) is, as I understand it, only for passenger carrying airlines. Not for cargo operations. There will also be requirements within these 1500hrs as to what kind of flying you have done, or another way of putting it; the quality of your hours. Staying in the pattern vs mountain flying wintertime, or such. All these little things which make the young pilot hone his/her skills, and get some experience to go with the flightbag. Once the airlines start hiring again, and it seems like they are about to do so, they will be forced to hire experienced pilots (1500hrs or more), which preferrably should be from regionals and part 135. Which will mean openings for, say, instructors to move to regionals and part 135 operators. Meaning openings for instructors for those fresh out of the blocks. You do your time and make the grade, and don`t bump the line or stab each other in the back by way of cash. 
Europe, as someone mentioned, is going the opposite direction. The MPL seems here to stay, and EASA legislators are turning their backs to what the FAA is doing and why. Add to this their same response to the evermore liberate flight time "limitations" and studies regarding these. It seems obvious to me that the holes in the Swiss cheese model are lining up nicely for an accident. Then, and only then, will something be changed for the better. Maybe. But as long as people aren`t willing to pay more than a bus ticket for their airfare, and are oblivious to why airfare is dirt cheap, then nothing will be done. Media doesn`t seem to care, let alone spotlight the problem.
Europe, as someone mentioned, is going the opposite direction. The MPL seems here to stay, and EASA legislators are turning their backs to what the FAA is doing and why. Add to this their same response to the evermore liberate flight time "limitations" and studies regarding these. It seems obvious to me that the holes in the Swiss cheese model are lining up nicely for an accident. Then, and only then, will something be changed for the better. Maybe. But as long as people aren`t willing to pay more than a bus ticket for their airfare, and are oblivious to why airfare is dirt cheap, then nothing will be done. Media doesn`t seem to care, let alone spotlight the problem.
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I`ll agree with you, but only to a point. If your only motivation for instructing is to get hours quickly and move on, then you are not being a good instructor to your students. If, however, you grow on the experience of teaching someone something they have never tried before, and succeed at doing so, then you will in one or several ways grow as an experienced pilot. Yes, you can learn a lot by studying the books and manuals, but theory must be put into practice to get the most out of it.
So let`s say you get your CFI/CFII with about 250 hours total time. You get a job instructing and do your time up to at least 1500 hours. Meaning, unless you`re a very nervous person who never goes far from the pattern or training area, you should have learned and experienced a lot. One of those things is how to interact with a fellow pilot in a cockpit.
If you`re not willing to do your time and go through the ranks in the first place, then flying (other than private) is not for you. It`s not glamourous. It takes a lot of time and patience to make it. Need some luck and to know some people. The hours are terrible. The pay is questionable, at best. Most likely there will be a bit of commuting to say the least. No social life except maybe at nightstops. Have friends at home? They won`t bother calling you after awhile because you`re either away, or trying to get some sleep in a desperate attempt to regain something that appears to be consciousness. Girlfriend? Not for long. Kids? Maybe see them every other xmas, or at graduation. Living out of a suitcase, waking up at a different hotel every morning not really knowing where you are without looking at the hotel info. And for all this, you probably will have to get another job to makes ends meet because you still have bills and loans to pay, while the flying public demand ever cheaper airfare.
But perhaps, this new legislation might bring and end to your needing another job.
So let`s say you get your CFI/CFII with about 250 hours total time. You get a job instructing and do your time up to at least 1500 hours. Meaning, unless you`re a very nervous person who never goes far from the pattern or training area, you should have learned and experienced a lot. One of those things is how to interact with a fellow pilot in a cockpit.
If you`re not willing to do your time and go through the ranks in the first place, then flying (other than private) is not for you. It`s not glamourous. It takes a lot of time and patience to make it. Need some luck and to know some people. The hours are terrible. The pay is questionable, at best. Most likely there will be a bit of commuting to say the least. No social life except maybe at nightstops. Have friends at home? They won`t bother calling you after awhile because you`re either away, or trying to get some sleep in a desperate attempt to regain something that appears to be consciousness. Girlfriend? Not for long. Kids? Maybe see them every other xmas, or at graduation. Living out of a suitcase, waking up at a different hotel every morning not really knowing where you are without looking at the hotel info. And for all this, you probably will have to get another job to makes ends meet because you still have bills and loans to pay, while the flying public demand ever cheaper airfare.
But perhaps, this new legislation might bring and end to your needing another job.
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they may know the systems but can they really fly?
Anyway, there is a requirement of getting at least 1500 hours before they can get a license that is not restricted to the company for which they train, seems there is a certain amount of experience required after all, both supervision and checking requirements are more thorough as well.