Flybe?
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No, just for your clarification, here is what I said, again
Originally Posted by Coffin Corner
Hmm funny that Toastal.
What I posted was what we were told at an A.R.T course a few weeks ago. But then I supposed you are better informed so maybe we should all listen to you
CC
p.s. Where on this entire thread has anyone actually said, and I quote "It's NEVER going to happen"? Now THAT is staggering.
What I posted was what we were told at an A.R.T course a few weeks ago. But then I supposed you are better informed so maybe we should all listen to you
CC
p.s. Where on this entire thread has anyone actually said, and I quote "It's NEVER going to happen"? Now THAT is staggering.
Originally Posted by Coffin Corner
the caveat to that is that this is the airline industry, just about anything can happen at any time.
Now you don't want me to run that by you again do you?
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Wow, i'm not used to entering such high brow conversations, but here goes!
Does anyone know if this is going to mean ab initio guys will get a chance at Flybe soon and if so, when?
Does anyone know if this is going to mean ab initio guys will get a chance at Flybe soon and if so, when?
Join Date: Jun 2006
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NG FNG,
I think the only people who "know" the answer to your question probably don't post on Pprune. These would be Flybe's top level managers and HR team.
There will be plenty of people willing to speculate though and if you've read the first four pages of the thread, you will know how useless speculation can be. The aircraft orders coming out of Farnborough this week are encouraging, but they won't be delivered tomorrow and quite a few are replacements for aging planes.
I think the only people who "know" the answer to your question probably don't post on Pprune. These would be Flybe's top level managers and HR team.
There will be plenty of people willing to speculate though and if you've read the first four pages of the thread, you will know how useless speculation can be. The aircraft orders coming out of Farnborough this week are encouraging, but they won't be delivered tomorrow and quite a few are replacements for aging planes.
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Ab Initio Chances
At the risk of sounding like one of the ‘nay sayers’ who spread doom and gloom about the place, I honestly do not see a big move towards recruiting low hours ladies and gents.
Flybe have many, well advertised mentored/ pseudo sponsored schemes for MPL and MEIR with OAA, FTE and Cabair. They also have 5 authorised flying schools that they accept recommendations from and they will soon be taking in graduates from the Thomas Cook/ FTE cadet scheme to give them experience before they go on to fly something heavier.
As a consequence of the above Flybe have a holding pool or a number of holding pools full of people who have finished their mentored/ sponsored schemes or have been recommended by approved schools and have passed the selection process. All these people are eagerly awaiting their type rating dates. I know someone who was recommended to Flybe by an approved school and who passed through the selection process over 2 years ago, he still does not have a start date for his type rating. He has to maintain a certain currency in order to remain in the holding pool and he is spending £5k to £6k per year to maintain currency with little prospect of a type rating date in the near future.
When the new jets start arriving I assume that some Dash pilots will move over to the jet fleet but there will be more than enough people in the pool(s) waiting eagerly for a type rating start date to take their place.
I believe that for Flybe (or any other operator) to start recruiting low hours pilots in any great number their would have to be an F/O exodus of biblical proportions (probably Eastwards).
So while I do not think that the industry is dead in the gutter (I wouldn’t bother keeping my IR current if I thought that) and I do genuinely welcome the news of the new orders I seriously do not see the fabled upturn in fortune happening at the moment. The truth lies somewhere between these two scenarios and I would certainly not take the news of the orders as justification to start training without having the safety net of a cadet course.
As a low hours CPL and MEIR holder myself I truly hope that I am wrong and that there will be a big recruitment drive but I try to remain realistic and keep the rose tinted specs off my eyes.
Take it easy, stay safe and stay happy
MM
Flybe have many, well advertised mentored/ pseudo sponsored schemes for MPL and MEIR with OAA, FTE and Cabair. They also have 5 authorised flying schools that they accept recommendations from and they will soon be taking in graduates from the Thomas Cook/ FTE cadet scheme to give them experience before they go on to fly something heavier.
As a consequence of the above Flybe have a holding pool or a number of holding pools full of people who have finished their mentored/ sponsored schemes or have been recommended by approved schools and have passed the selection process. All these people are eagerly awaiting their type rating dates. I know someone who was recommended to Flybe by an approved school and who passed through the selection process over 2 years ago, he still does not have a start date for his type rating. He has to maintain a certain currency in order to remain in the holding pool and he is spending £5k to £6k per year to maintain currency with little prospect of a type rating date in the near future.
When the new jets start arriving I assume that some Dash pilots will move over to the jet fleet but there will be more than enough people in the pool(s) waiting eagerly for a type rating start date to take their place.
I believe that for Flybe (or any other operator) to start recruiting low hours pilots in any great number their would have to be an F/O exodus of biblical proportions (probably Eastwards).
So while I do not think that the industry is dead in the gutter (I wouldn’t bother keeping my IR current if I thought that) and I do genuinely welcome the news of the new orders I seriously do not see the fabled upturn in fortune happening at the moment. The truth lies somewhere between these two scenarios and I would certainly not take the news of the orders as justification to start training without having the safety net of a cadet course.
As a low hours CPL and MEIR holder myself I truly hope that I am wrong and that there will be a big recruitment drive but I try to remain realistic and keep the rose tinted specs off my eyes.
Take it easy, stay safe and stay happy
MM
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Exodus - depends
For those of you hoping that Flybe will start recruiting ab-initio again I think it all depends on the future external market. If the airlines on the next rung of the ladder start hiring again en masse many here think Flybe will suffer an exodus of significant proportions. The company is playing extremely hard ball with the latest pay rise which has disillusioned many, the lifestyle at present on the Q400 fleet is probably worse than even Easy or Ryan bcause we work 5/2 6/3 and even 6/2 rosters compared to their 5/4 rosters. Many F/O's are working 100 hour plus rosters per month and very few plan to stay if they get a offer of employment from Emirates/Qatar/BA/Thomas Cook/Monarch/Execjets.
The Embraer 170 order might have encouraged some to stay if the money and lifestyle wasn't so much better elsewhere but I personally know some F/O's I have spoken to who haven't been bidding for the jet because they don't wat to be lumbered with a type rating bond to clear for another three years when they get the chance to go elsewhere. £40k a year on the Embraer doesn't compare with £55k elsewhere on a Boeing or Airbus with any number of operators and more time off to enjoy it.
Rest assured that I personally know several Captains who are looking to leave or undertaking selecton too so potential exodus isn't just from the right seat.
In my view this all bodes quite well for wannabes over the next 2 years. Flybe is a great place to gain experience. Those of us who joined hoping to build a career here though perhaps feel a little sad that the company is keen to join the big league in terms of its size, ambition, airline fleet and route network but not prepared to remunerate its crews in line with the market. The Embraer is a lovely machine, I'd love to get my hands on it and frankly many of us wouldn't care if we never flew anything bigger in our career, but lifestyle and pay are what determines your quality of life outside work and to most people ther are more important than the machine they fly. sadly this is where Flybe falls short as a long term option for many.
Desk-pilot
The Embraer 170 order might have encouraged some to stay if the money and lifestyle wasn't so much better elsewhere but I personally know some F/O's I have spoken to who haven't been bidding for the jet because they don't wat to be lumbered with a type rating bond to clear for another three years when they get the chance to go elsewhere. £40k a year on the Embraer doesn't compare with £55k elsewhere on a Boeing or Airbus with any number of operators and more time off to enjoy it.
Rest assured that I personally know several Captains who are looking to leave or undertaking selecton too so potential exodus isn't just from the right seat.
In my view this all bodes quite well for wannabes over the next 2 years. Flybe is a great place to gain experience. Those of us who joined hoping to build a career here though perhaps feel a little sad that the company is keen to join the big league in terms of its size, ambition, airline fleet and route network but not prepared to remunerate its crews in line with the market. The Embraer is a lovely machine, I'd love to get my hands on it and frankly many of us wouldn't care if we never flew anything bigger in our career, but lifestyle and pay are what determines your quality of life outside work and to most people ther are more important than the machine they fly. sadly this is where Flybe falls short as a long term option for many.
Desk-pilot
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I'm with you too. Great shame really. So much potential. Still, if people vote with their feet, that may get things changed. They are not a small training airline anymore. They are a very large operator. I just wonder if the training departments will be able to cope with the turnover. If not, a change may come but that will be too late for all of us. A fault line in an otherwise excellent business model maybe?
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Bigjarv:
I believe management have had their eye on that particular ball for quite a while hence the new training academy. They will very shortly have the keys for a modern training centre and with it the capacity to train very efficiently and large numbers. It is purely my own conjecture but I suspect for the company to retain a desireable level of experience the way forward might to offer a harmonised LHS payscale and a different RHS payscale based on type. Why? Because they can. This would breed resentment among Dash F/Os but we are at the bottom of the heap, as was seen in the 2006 pay negotiations when the company needed to improve the Dash captain salary it was the 146 fleet and the Dash F/Os who were left to foot the Bill. Ash seems to have clogged up the engine of good industrial relations as latest information is that management are no longer interested at looking into the late finish early starts issue without significant loss of "perks" such as DP, crew meals etc. I am not at all hopeful as, despite all the inclusive rhetoric and sickening fuzzy company staff emails, there is no real intention or willingness to improve the package on offer to crew.
"On behalf of the company I would like to thank you all for your continuing hard work and dedication which ensures the company's solid performance in challenging economic times...yada yada yada...." type memos are a monthly offering.
Unfortunately my car does not run on fuzzy memos, nor can I buy schoolbooks, pay my mortgage or do my weekly shopping with them. It is time for management to make a decent, fair commitment to staff.
sr
I just wonder if the training departments will be able to cope with the turnover.
"On behalf of the company I would like to thank you all for your continuing hard work and dedication which ensures the company's solid performance in challenging economic times...yada yada yada...." type memos are a monthly offering.
Unfortunately my car does not run on fuzzy memos, nor can I buy schoolbooks, pay my mortgage or do my weekly shopping with them. It is time for management to make a decent, fair commitment to staff.
sr
Last edited by speedrestriction; 25th Jul 2010 at 17:46. Reason: meaning
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